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AJinFLA's Avatar AJinFLA
09:06 AM Liked: 24
post #91 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 1,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yveletnik View Post

For the price/value argument I think at the lower end of price point (which covers my $2K/pair budget) the big companies would almost always win.
There are literally dozens of ID and numerous times that retail brands. I would suspect most buyers are foremost concerned with getting the best sounding product (to them) for their money. What sample size are you basing your conclusion on? One? The ST MTM vs a KEF coax you own?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yveletnik View Post

Another example KEF Q100 is $375/pair, big company, so should be bad value.
Last I checked KEF/Authorized dealers sold them for $550/pr. IOW, that is KEFs pricing to account for middlemen, retail, etc.
I'm sure you might be able to get them for $200/pr from the guy selling the "24k" gold chains out of his car at the gas station, but is that a valid data point for comparison?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yveletnik View Post

There is an ID company that uses drivers from Q100s in their bookshelf speakers, add 8" woofer, plate AMP and sell for $1300 i think. Everybody hails that $1300 as a great value.
"Everyone" would include one of the KEF USA VPs who heard them himself...and was astonished by the selling price. Would you like his contact information to confirm the veracity of this statement?

Now, I'm personally not a believer in the "ID trumps big brand" idea. Actually, quite the opposite. Some may, some may not. Many are still the same exact tragic format wrapped in a prettier package, with more boisterously rabid fanboys - perfect for the mindless. Others aren't.
So rather than generalizations, it might be best to listen to as wide a variety as possible (which may involve, heaven forbid, leaving the house/computer), then decide on a basis of a somewhat wider sampling.

cheers,

AJ
AcuDefTechGuy
09:41 AM Liked: 238
post #92 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 4,281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yveletnik View Post

Another example KEF Q100 is $375/pair, big company, so should be bad value. There is an ID company that uses drivers from Q100s in their bookshelf speakers, add 8" woofer, plate AMP and sell for $1300 i think. Everybody hails that $1300 as a great value.

Yes, add a built-in high quality powered subwoofer, better custom-built cabinets, comparable measurements to the Q900, but in a small compact package for those who must have bookshelf speakers and cannot or do not want a subwoofer. And don't forget the "made-in-the-USA" (with drivers made elsewhere) part too.

There are some of us that are actually willing to pay more for that "made in USA", instead of "made in China or Mexico" or some other places. biggrin.gif

So it depends on your needs.

The M1 is +/-2.0dB from 100Hz-10kHz, F3 is 38Hz.

The Q900 is +/-2.25dB, F3 is 44Hz.
raylover79's Avatar raylover79
11:01 AM Liked: 10
post #93 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

what kind of support is that exactly?
haha... very funny!
callas01's Avatar callas01
11:43 AM Liked: 80
post #94 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raylover79 View Post

haha... very funny!
I'm serious, I want to know what they do that other companies don't.
AJinFLA's Avatar AJinFLA
11:57 AM Liked: 24
post #95 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 1,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

I'm serious, I want to know what they do that other companies don't.
I hand out free beer at shows.
michaelkingdom's Avatar michaelkingdom
12:35 PM Liked: 17
post #96 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

I'm serious, I want to know what they do that other companies don't.

For one thing, you can speak with the manufacturers right here on the forums. I bought an Outlaw RR2150 a while back and it arrived damaged. I went on the forums and griped - within a few hours, someone from Outlaw posted in my thread and corrected the issue. That's pretty good!
callas01's Avatar callas01
12:47 PM Liked: 80
post #97 of 119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I hand out free beer at shows.
I'm sure like with all things, there are good and bad with both.. look at elemental designs, I own one if their subs and refuse to recommend them anymore because their CS and quality standards have become so terrible. But then on the Dyn forum a guys says his tweeters don't sound the same, and mick asks him to pm him so he can send him a matched pair free of charge.

It's like saying my speakers more accurate and true to the source..... wink.gif
callas01's Avatar callas01
01:00 PM Liked: 80
post #98 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

For one thing, you can speak with the manufacturers right here on the forums. I bought an Outlaw RR2150 a while back and it arrived damaged. I went on the forums and griped - within a few hours, someone from Outlaw posted in my thread and corrected the issue. That's pretty good!
Mick from Dynaudio is on this forum everyday. I've seen him handle several issues. But you're probably right that polk or paradigm isn't doing that. But who knows for sure.
raylover79's Avatar raylover79
02:05 PM Liked: 10
post #99 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

Mick from Dynaudio is on this forum everyday. I've seen him handle several issues. But you're probably right that polk or paradigm isn't doing that. But who knows for sure.
so, except for the customer support point, you are accepting every other benefit that I mentioned about purchasing from a ID company, right?
You may have had bad experience with ED, but I only mentioned a hand full of ID companies while mentioning good customer support and that did not include the ED.
Not every manufacturer of non ID companies visit forums like dynaudio's Mick, but majority of the manufacturers from ID company do visit the forums and respond to query's.
callas01's Avatar callas01
02:35 PM Liked: 80
post #100 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raylover79 View Post

so, except for the customer support point, you are accepting every other benefit that I mentioned about purchasing from a ID company, right?
You may have had bad experience with ED, but I only mentioned a hand full of ID companies while mentioning good customer support and that did not include the ED.
Not every manufacturer of non ID companies visit forums like dynaudio's Mick, but majority of the manufacturers from ID company do visit the forums and respond to query's.

go back and read the last page, me an Nuance had a conversation that covered some of your other points.

For the record, I have not had a bad experience with eD, my sub works great, never had an issue, but if you look at their threads on all the HT forums, there are issues, lead times not being met, and I mean tell the buyer 4 weeks and 3 months later still nothing and you claim you dont have packing materials, saying you have a broke paint gun and its delayed shipments for several weeks, damaged products going out, amp failures on the subs, dead woofers being shipped as replacements for dead woofers that had already shipped, I have read that some people were on their 4th and 5th bad amps. So while my experience has been very positive, I wont recommend that someone put themselves thru that kind of torture that seems to be happening.

I dont think you understand my position. I have no issue with ID brands and builders, I have heard Hsu products many times, they are a 1/2 hr from me, they are great, I nearly bought the VTF2.3, but I went with the eD A2-300 instead to save some $$$. I have heard their bookies, they are good. Not great, but for $180 ea, they are good speakers. I have not heard JTR or Seaton, but based on what they are and are meant for, they wont fit my needs and uses, so I probably wont ever hear them. SVS, never heard a sub or speaker. What I dislike is when someone says all B&Ms cant compete, as AJ said, some can, some cant. Theres always an exception, or two or three.... and again, this is all a subjective hobby. As I read someone write, "my favorite pizza will not be your favorite pizza", same with speakers, ID or not.
raylover79's Avatar raylover79
02:52 PM Liked: 10
post #101 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

What I dislike is when someone says all B&Ms cant compete, as AJ said, some can, some cant. Theres always an exception, or two or three.... and again, this is all a subjective hobby. As I read someone write, "my favorite pizza will not be your favorite pizza", same with speakers, ID or not.

We can't make examples out of exceptions. At least, majority of the Non ID companies can't compete with the ID companies in price to performance ratio or customer support or customization options. I know you won't agree with me in this no matter how many supportive reasons I provide you.
So why am I arguing???????
Ok, I accept that you win. "non ID(B&M) companies provide better value for money, better support and better customization options than ID companies". HAPPY?
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5
03:09 PM Liked: 531
post #102 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 8,373
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Keep in mind that larger manufacturers are most likely buying materials at a much reduced cost compared to many of the smaller ID companies. Also larger manufacturers probably have more efficient manufacturing methods. So you can't automatically equate the lower overhead of a small speaker company as offing more value. It may be true, but then it may not.
callas01's Avatar callas01
03:10 PM Liked: 80
post #103 of 119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raylover79 View Post

We can't make examples out of exceptions. At least, majority of the Non ID companies can't compete with the ID companies in price to performance ratio or customer support or customization options. I know you won't agree with me in this no matter how many supportive reasons I provide you.
So why am I arguing???????
Ok, I accept that you win. "non ID(B&M) companies provide better value for money, better support and better customization options than ID companies". HAPPY?

No Im not happy, because you are correct, most companies that sell thru B&Ms wont do what IDs will, especially if they are made in China, you wont get a custom veneer, or they wont come onto a forum and solve CS issues, for examples. I was mearly mearly taking exception to the general statement, which is probably mostly accurate. But be aware that their are going to be exceptions. Likewise if Dynaudio or Focal turned into Polk or Klipsch, Id never buy their products again. But at the same time, if Salk turned into an eD, I would never buy their product either. Also, I added in Focal, but I have no idea honestly if theyll do custom veneers or finishes, I believe Dyn will, but you have to wait for them to be made in Denmark and shipped, but then I could be wrong. I also doubt that Focal has someone from Sound Organization on this site answering issues, but they might. I dont visit that forum; why should I?
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5
03:25 PM Liked: 531
post #104 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 8,373
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Only 10% off MSRP for a street price? Don't think so.
raylover79's Avatar raylover79
03:25 PM Liked: 10
post #105 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Keep in mind that larger manufacturers are most likely buying materials at a much reduced cost compared to many of the smaller ID companies. Also larger manufacturers probably have more efficient manufacturing methods. So you can't automatically equate the lower overhead of a small speaker company as offing more value. It may be true, but then it may not.

Valid point.
But up to my knowledge, I couldn't find a single non ID company sub woofer, which can match the performance of SVS or JTR or SEATON or HSU, even at double the price of these subs. Hope that says something.
callas01's Avatar callas01
03:32 PM Liked: 80
post #106 of 119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raylover79 View Post

Valid point.
But up to my knowledge, I couldn't find a single non ID company sub woofer, which can match the performance of SVS or JTR or SEATON or HSU, even at double the price of these subs. Hope that says something.
I agree on subwoofers, SVS and Hsu IMO own the lower priced market. REL is pretty good and so is JL, but the REL T5 at $599 is not as good as the VTF2.4 in terms of output and extension, but it is pretty accurate the one time I heard it.... but then you could get a similar sized and performance based Hsu sub for $250.
cschang's Avatar cschang
04:35 PM Liked: 82
post #107 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 14,783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Keep in mind that larger manufacturers are most likely buying materials at a much reduced cost compared to many of the smaller ID companies. Also larger manufacturers probably have more efficient manufacturing methods. So you can't automatically equate the lower overhead of a small speaker company as offing more value. It may be true, but then it may not.
But when you talk about larger overhead, also keep in mind more employees (different departments, as well as sales reps), training materials, marketing materials, larger office and warehouse space.

Look at RBH Sound as an example:
http://rbhsound.com/contact.php

That is just their contact page, so I would imagine more employees than that.
ac500's Avatar ac500
11:19 PM Liked: 13
post #108 of 119
06-10-2012 | Posts: 58
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It seems like the issue of independent vs. large speaker makers isn't really a topic that's agreed on, so I'll not assign any bias to brands in that sense then. Once I get the time, I'll just go out and try to listen to as many as I can, using the suggestions here as a guide to help me know where to look.
Nuance's Avatar Nuance
06:33 AM Liked: 59
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06-11-2012 | Posts: 11,584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

It seems like the issue of independent vs. large speaker makers isn't really a topic that's agreed on, so I'll not assign any bias to brands in that sense then. Once I get the time, I'll just go out and try to listen to as many as I can, using the suggestions here as a guide to help me know where to look.

That is a good idea. This thread went off on a tangent (like they always do), but it sounds like you were able to weed through the garbage and extract the good points. Kudos to you for that.

For what it's worth, comparing speakers like you do headphones will be difficult. This is because the design of the speaker paired with the room acoustics can change the sound of that speaker drastically. So if you really love something while you're out auditioning, don't be surprised that it may sound very different in your room at home. Auditioning in your own room is best, but it isn't very practical to purchase three sets of speakers (or however many final choices you narrowed it down to) and compare that way. Try to take notes while listening, paying attention to how the dealership set up the speakers and what the room acoustics were like. Don't be afraid to ask the dealer to move things around to better mimic your home listening environment. Also, listen to the same audition material if possible.

Happy hunting and best wishes to you in your speaker search.
zieglj01's Avatar zieglj01
09:45 AM Liked: 537
post #110 of 119
06-11-2012 | Posts: 11,326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac500 View Post

It seems like the issue of independent vs. large speaker makers isn't really a topic that's agreed on, so I'll not assign any bias to brands in that sense then. Once I get the time, I'll just go out and try to listen to as many as I can, using the suggestions here as a guide to help me know where to look.

Glad to see that you survived this wild thread. Audition with your music and be open minded.
I do not get overly concerned about speaker manufacturing cost, or marketing and where it
is sold. The end result is the performace/sound, and being moved by the music. Good Luck!
RicardoJoa's Avatar RicardoJoa
12:15 PM Liked: 22
post #111 of 119
06-11-2012 | Posts: 628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yveletnik View Post

I went through similar experience with Salk Song Towers, I wouldn't say they are "Gawd awful", but instead of listening to what I like I had to start listening to what sounds good on my speakers. I still think they are awesome at some stuff and might make some1 very happy, but after 4 month trying to convince myself that they are worth keeping I gave up and switched to KEF. Some people tried to "help" my with STs by saying the problem is in either my recordings, AVR or the room.
O yeah, be careful with "30 days trials", you might have to pay for both ways shipping with will make free=$400 and it may only cover standard versions of the product. The real free I know of are Aperion and NHT, and I think bookshelfs only from EMP.
For the price/value argument I think at the lower end of price point (which covers my $2K/pair budget) the big companies would almost always win. You will pay for middle man, marketing overhead and all that. With ID companies keep in mind that they buy their parts from Parts Express or some1 like that who in turn gets those from manufacturers. For cabinets making those individually in US is way more expensive than factory made boxes at big companies. So while you are saving by eliminating the middle man and all other overhead big companies have the cost of ID companies parts & labor may run the price up more than the "middle man". Exception maybe the Philharmonics because those use china made cabinets and Denis is selling them really close to his cost. I was trying to do math on the speakers in my price range, ID vs big guys, so KEF R500 ($1900 street price) and Song Towers $2000 price. STs use $70/piece drivers (MSRP on Madisound) from that $70 Madisound gets a cut and SEAS gets a cut, so whats the true value of that driver? Now if KEF would offer their drivers through Madisound my guess is that R series drivers would run WAY more than $70.
Another example KEF Q100 is $375/pair, big company, so should be bad value. There is an ID company that uses drivers from Q100s in their bookshelf speakers, add 8" woofer, plate AMP and sell for $1300 i think. Everybody hails that $1300 as a great value.
Than there is a question of the R&D available for big companies vs what ID companies have.
So the whole "ID offers more for your money" is arguable as a least. I think it's fueled by one audio enthusiast support for another. Of course I would want to believe that a fellow audiophile in his garage can make a better speaker than a faceless corporation, but if it was true we wouldn't have a problem with big corporations running small companies out of business.
Now it might be different with $10K budget, I dunno.
So I'd say ID is an interesting option and with their customers being their fans as well customers will be willing to open their home for an audition. But I would definitely not buy anything just because people on this forum says it's a best option in your price range.
There is just no way around auditioning for yourself. Or actually after a month in your home you will know for sure if you love the speakers or not.

Would you like to share your thoughts on why you switched to the kef. What is it about the song that you didnt like? and what about kef that you like.
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5
08:21 AM Liked: 531
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06-13-2012 | Posts: 8,373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

But when you talk about larger overhead, also keep in mind more employees (different departments, as well as sales reps), training materials, marketing materials, larger office and warehouse space.
Look at RBH Sound as an example:
http://rbhsound.com/contact.php
That is just their contact page, so I would imagine more employees than that.

RBH is not a huge mass production company. I would imagine that Ascend has much the same thing. The contact page listed five people for four departments. That does not sound like a huge number of people to me. RBH listed:

Accounting/credit department
Shipping department
Customer service
USA & International marketing and sales
cschang's Avatar cschang
09:49 AM Liked: 82
post #113 of 119
06-13-2012 | Posts: 14,783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

RBH is not a huge mass production company. I would imagine that Ascend has much the same thing. The contact page listed five people for four departments. That does not sound like a huge number of people to me. RBH listed:
Accounting/credit department
Shipping department
Customer service
USA & International marketing and sales
Mike,

That is only what is listed on the RBH site. Do you think there are any more people in the background to support them?

I can tell you, and anyone that has dealt with Ascend on more than a cursory level, or has visited their office/warehouse, that Ascend is not even close to that.
biggar's Avatar biggar
04:37 AM Liked: 19
post #114 of 119
07-23-2012 | Posts: 59
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I know that this conversation has been going on for several weeks but I have a comment. I have owned Kef Q65.2 speakers for ten years and have loved them. For a couple of years, I've wanted a little change in sound reproduction and I have been following the fitness of the Axiom M80s. With all of the trimmings, these speakers will cost you about $1700. They are truly amazing speakers that, according to all of "the experts", play like speakers costing trice to fur times ther rice. Axiom keeps its cost way, way down by being a factory direct shop. You cannot buy these speakers on the high street. In order to audition them, you have to go nt the Axiom site and find a forum member who lives close to you and ask them for audition - straight up! Axiom is sold to buyers across the world so it should be relatively easy to fid an owner close to any major metropolitan area.

Mine are being delivered this week!
josh6113's Avatar josh6113
05:22 AM Liked: 22
post #115 of 119
07-23-2012 | Posts: 708
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I know eveyone is recommending speakers left and right on here but for what your looking for I will recommend my favorite....they are the deftech 8060-st bipolar towers.These towers are great with every type of material...music,games and movies....if you have a bestbuy near go give them a listen....there 2000 for the pair and for your uses would be hard to beat...smile.gif....my opinion of course but really its your ear is what matters...smile.gif....good luck in your search....check out my youtube channel for some demo vids of my speakers...smile.gif....the vids are just for fun but you can get an idea.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KkNHKOZTbI&feature=plcp

http://www.definitivetech.com/Products/products.aspx?path=Floor-Standing_Speakers&productid=BP-8060ST
AcuDefTechGuy
07:07 AM Liked: 238
post #116 of 119
07-23-2012 | Posts: 4,281
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yveletnik recently bought a 5.0 set of KEF Q900 + Q600 + Q800 for $2.2K delivered from an authorized dealer Vanns.

So for about $1,200, the Q900 towers are hard to beat. Will need subwoofer, though.

Also for about $1200, the Revel F12 are hard to beat. Big names. Big measurements. Big sounds. Little costs.
a|F's Avatar a|F
09:14 PM Liked: 16
post #117 of 119
07-23-2012 | Posts: 147
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Lots of great recommendations here. I was wondering why no one mentioned the PSB Synchrony or Imagine towers for consideration? I've heard great things and thought they fit nicely into his budget. Am I mistaken on the value of these towers?

Which speakers did you end up with?
ZozoA320's Avatar ZozoA320
07:24 PM Liked: 10
post #118 of 119
08-19-2013 | Posts: 69
Joined: Dec 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I'd also go with Salk SongTowers with the RAAL ribbon upgrade. They are more efficient than the Selahs and have a better crossover designer in my opinion.

Other great choices are Philharmonic 2's or 3's, Kef, Revel and Soundfield Audio.


What KEF series you are taken about ?
The Murderousone's Avatar The Murderousone
08:21 PM Liked: 24
post #119 of 119
08-19-2013 | Posts: 268
Joined: Jun 2009
Don't know if anybody mentioned it yet but.

Sonus Faber Venere 2.5>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BY FAR I heard them and there is good as it gets.....................or if you can stretch it get the 3.0s

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