Klipsch speakers and receiver question - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 06-08-2012, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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i have Klipsch speakers with a 5.1 setup (RB-25s, RC-25, RS-25s) and an SV Subwoofer (2x12). For the last six year I have been using a Harmon Kardon AVR-635 receiver and never though I was super happy with it so this past week I upgraded to a Denon AVR 2312CI and can NOT get happy with it at all and realized how happy I was with the old HK AVR 635. Anyone know why the 6 year newer Denon with Audyssey (set up ran many times with the same result) just doesn't sound as good as the old HK AVR-635? The problem with the Denon is that I have to turn up DVD's up to about -10dB to clearly hear dialogue. Never had this issue with the HK. Any thoughts regarding Klipsch 25 series and Denon and Harmon Kardon. I have two more weeks to return the Denon.

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post #2 of 25 Old 06-09-2012, 02:08 PM
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possibly you have listened to the HK so long, you are hearing something totally different.


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post #3 of 25 Old 06-09-2012, 02:56 PM
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The HK 635 is a solid machine. How does the Denon sound with Audyssey disengaged?

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post #4 of 25 Old 06-09-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCF34 View Post

i... Anyone know why the 6 year newer Denon with Audyssey (set up ran many times with the same result) just doesn't sound as good as the old HK AVR-635? The problem with the Denon is that I have to turn up DVD's up to about -10dB to clearly hear dialogue. ..

I wouldn't think it would make that much difference but when you talk about needing to turn up DVDs by 10 dB how are you measuring this? My first thought is did you use a tripod when you ran Audyssey? My second thought is if you did it correctly, the Denon may have set a different trim level to start from and the gain may be been higher on the HK (meaning the Main Volume may be gauged differently between the two units.

Fwiw, I am not familiar with the HK setup but am curious what the speakers trim levels are compared to each other and what volume do you listen on the Main Volume level on the Denon?
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post #5 of 25 Old 06-10-2012, 08:54 AM
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My first thought is, how did you set the channel levels with the H/K ?
If you set them by ear then they were "wrong" in the fact that they were not level matched to each other.
When you say you have to turn it up to -10 does that mean the overall volume is to high in the room or does that mean you don't like seeing -10 on the display ?
If the overall volume is to high I recommend adjusting the center channel trim up so the dialog is louder, if you just don't like seeing -10 on the display rest assured that you are not overstressing the AVR, it is just a display.

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post #6 of 25 Old 06-12-2012, 08:10 AM
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Harman Kardon is very musical and warm with good solid bass. Denon has none of that. This is what you're hearing.
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post #7 of 25 Old 06-12-2012, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Vital View Post

Harman Kardon is very musical and warm with good solid bass. Denon has none of that. This is what you're hearing.

BS! Go to the Klipsch Forum and see how many people use Denon AVRs with their speakers.
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post #8 of 25 Old 06-12-2012, 09:20 AM
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I own an HK AVR 254 (used as pre/pro) and replaced it with a Denon 4311. Needless to say the 4311 was a big improvement. With the room correction used on the HK, the room did not measure much better (using REW) than it did with the room correction off. in fact in some areas, it was worse. My room is treated. Much happier with the results using the room correction in the Denon.

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post #9 of 25 Old 06-12-2012, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I own an HK AVR 254 (used as pre/pro) and replaced it with a Denon 4311. Needless to say the 4311 was a big improvement. With the room correction used on the HK, the room did not measure much better (using REW) than it did with the room correction off. in fact in some areas, it was worse. My room is treated. Much happier with the results using the room correction in the Denon.

Interesting! I too use an HK avr-254 and don't use the EQ; it souds good without it and dead with it engaged. I have never tried Audessey but I am curious about it.

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post #10 of 25 Old 06-13-2012, 04:19 PM
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The system is not setup correct with the room. The autocalibration use -30 to equal 70-75db at the mic position. If you are turning up the volume to -10 on most of the things you listen to, back to the drawing board. My Large tower sound about the same as my Klipsch bookself speakers at -30. The main difference in the speakers is the potential to get louder without distortion.

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post #11 of 25 Old 06-13-2012, 04:38 PM
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The HK simply sounds better than the Denon; better amplifier design.

If you want to get something that sounds a whole lot better than either one, get a Cambridge Audio 650R; it is the best-sounding HT receiver I have ever heard, at ANY price.
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post #12 of 25 Old 06-13-2012, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys for the responses. Sorry I have not got back to you all sooner. I set the HK up manually - I did try the EZ SET/EQ when I got the HK receiver and allowed it to adjust gains and speaker distances. I have physically measured distances from MLP to each speaker and my measurements are close to the EZSET/EQ. I have also confirmed the gain of the five channels are equal using a Rat Shack SPL sitting in MLP and using HK test tunes. All channels are within a dB of each other. Using the SPL from Rat Shack channel gains with HK are +1 (left channel), -1 (center channel), 0 (right channel) , +1 (SR) and +1(SL). I don't use EZSET/EQ anymore. I just set it up manually as most do with a six year old receiver using a SPL meter.

I messed with the 2312CI continuously for three weeks and ran 8 points for Audyssey many times (tripod mounted, pointing at ceiling, position 1 at MLP not anywhere near a wall or seat back, and all 8 points within 2-3' of the MLP seat). I could never really enjoy a movie or broadcast unless I pushed the master volume up to about -10 to -5dB which is just WAY too loud for normal listening. The sound with the Denon always sounded 'muffled' and the dialogue was always a struggle for me to hear. This past Saturday morning (after messing with Denon all night Friday night and attempting to watch movies) I disconnected the Denon and hooked the HK back up and set channel distances and gains manually using SPL meter and instantly liked the crisp clean sound with the HK AVR 635 better. Since I was running out of 30 day return window I sent the Denon 2312CI back and am now holding off to see how the Onkyo 818 pans out or maybe one of Onkyo top line receivers to be released in the next couple months.

One thing I noticed is the HK weighs over 40lbs. The Denon weighs 24lbs. Not sure if weight is directly related to quality with these receivers, but the HK is substantially beefier, similar to the Onkyo 818.

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post #13 of 25 Old 06-13-2012, 07:49 PM
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Well it sounds to me like you know what you are doing so user error goes way down on the list of suspects.
I set up my brother's Denon 1912 and I was very pleased with its sound so I am surprised the 2312 was a dud.
I have a Pioneer VSX-23 and I am very pleased with it. but since I have seen the Denon GUI overlay I would really like to have that feature.
I have no experience with Onkyo.

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post #14 of 25 Old 06-13-2012, 08:25 PM
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BS! Go to the Klipsch Forum and see how many people use Denon AVRs with their speakers.
I am always on the Klipsch forums. I know the difference between HK and Denon because I own both. My Denon is now used as a computer amp until it can be replaced. My best friend had a nice Denon and replaced it with an HK 3600 and it was a night and day difference.
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post #15 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 02:11 AM
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The Denon is one of the entry level avr's and maybe the HK is just a better avr for your preference. There are fans of all the different brands. Glad you are happy. Enjoy!

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post #16 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vital View Post

Quote:
BS! Go to the Klipsch Forum and see how many people use Denon AVRs with their speakers.
I am always on the Klipsch forums. I know the difference between HK and Denon because I own both. My Denon is now used as a computer amp until it can be replaced. My best friend had a nice Denon and replaced it with an HK 3600 and it was a night and day difference.

I can't argue with your personal experience especially since you aren't using model numbers and I don't know how you set them up...Fwiw, your response didn't explain why the OP had a 10 dB difference in volume and generalized about something that simply is not true with the Denon AVR 48XX series nor what others who have experienced who have owned multiple AVRS....That being said, I can see an upper-end HK sounding better than a lower end Denon and I've seen just as many happy customers with both companies..
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post #17 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MCF34 View Post

... Using the SPL from Rat Shack channel gains with HK are +1 (left channel), -1 (center channel), 0 (right channel) , +1 (SR) and +1(SL). I don't use EZSET/EQ anymore. I just set it up manually as most do with a six year old receiver using a SPL meter.

..The Denon weighs 24lbs. Not sure if weight is directly related to quality with these receivers, but the HK is substantially beefier, similar to the Onkyo 818.

The amps in the HK are more-than-likely better, but my guess is when you ran Audyssey in the Denon it set your trim levels considerably lower than what you are reporting the HK doing. Regardless, I hope you find something that works but I can see where a lower end Denon may not necessarily be an upgrade to what you have except for connectivity... Good luck in your search.
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post #18 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 06:23 AM
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Weight is often directly related to the power supply transformer and other power supply components.

The typical mass-market receivers, even the more expensive ones, typically have a power supply which can only supply 500-600 watts total, which means that peak levels of 50 or 60 watts per channel can cause distortion to be excessive. One Anthem receiver that costs $3000 was only able to put out less than 40 watts per channel when tested; a good reason to avoid Anthem like the plague...lol.

The Cambridge Audio 650R has a power supply that is rated for 1400 WATTS, and is rated to supply 100 watts per channel with all 7 channels driven! No other receiver I know of has anything close to that. It has amazingly good sound quality.

That is one reason why it is the best-sounding receiver on the market, which Home Theater magazine affirmed when they reviewed it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MCF34 View Post

Thanks guys for the responses. Sorry I have not got back to you all sooner. I set the HK up manually - I did try the EZ SET/EQ when I got the HK receiver and allowed it to adjust gains and speaker distances. I have physically measured distances from MLP to each speaker and my measurements are close to the EZSET/EQ. I have also confirmed the gain of the five channels are equal using a Rat Shack SPL sitting in MLP and using HK test tunes. All channels are within a dB of each other. Using the SPL from Rat Shack channel gains with HK are +1 (left channel), -1 (center channel), 0 (right channel) , +1 (SR) and +1(SL). I don't use EZSET/EQ anymore. I just set it up manually as most do with a six year old receiver using a SPL meter.
I messed with the 2312CI continuously for three weeks and ran 8 points for Audyssey many times (tripod mounted, pointing at ceiling, position 1 at MLP not anywhere near a wall or seat back, and all 8 points within 2-3' of the MLP seat). I could never really enjoy a movie or broadcast unless I pushed the master volume up to about -10 to -5dB which is just WAY too loud for normal listening. The sound with the Denon always sounded 'muffled' and the dialogue was always a struggle for me to hear. This past Saturday morning (after messing with Denon all night Friday night and attempting to watch movies) I disconnected the Denon and hooked the HK back up and set channel distances and gains manually using SPL meter and instantly liked the crisp clean sound with the HK AVR 635 better. Since I was running out of 30 day return window I sent the Denon 2312CI back and am now holding off to see how the Onkyo 818 pans out or maybe one of Onkyo top line receivers to be released in the next couple months.
One thing I noticed is the HK weighs over 40lbs. The Denon weighs 24lbs. Not sure if weight is directly related to quality with these receivers, but the HK is substantially beefier, similar to the Onkyo 818.
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post #19 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 06:34 AM
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,,The typical mass-market receivers, even the more expensive ones, typically have a power supply which can only supply 500-600 watts total, which means that peak levels of 50 or 60 watts per channel can cause distortion to be excessive....

Fwiw, the OP is running a nice Klipsch Bookshelf Home Theater, where none of his speakers are hard to drive and he is sending the lower end to an SVS sub so I can't imagine lack of power being the issue unless he is in a really large room. .
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i have Klipsch speakers with a 5.1 setup (RB-25s, RC-25, RS-25s) and an SV Subwoofer (2x12). .
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post #20 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

...The Cambridge Audio 650R has a power supply that is rated for 1400 WATTS, and is rated to supply 100 watts per channel with all 7 channels driven! No other receiver I know of has anything close to that..

My Denon AVR-4806 is that good: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/denon-avr-4806-receiver-12-2005-part-5.html cool.gif
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post #21 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 06:54 AM
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I can't argue with your personal experience especially since you aren't using model numbers and I don't know how you set them up...Fwiw, your response didn't explain why the OP had a 10 dB difference in volume and generalized about something that simply is not true with the Denon AVR 48XX series nor what others who have experienced who have owned multiple AVRS....That being said, I can see an upper-end HK sounding better than a lower end Denon and I've seen just as many happy customers with both companies..
You are right, I shouldnt have generalized the entire Denon line because I have not heard their really high end. I have heard 3-4 of their units from their entry level to the 38** series and compared it to equal level Harman Kardons and all of the comparisons have been on Klipsch RF-7 speakers. At those price points on those speakers the HK sounds a lot better IMO. I run five RF-7s in my theater room and my buddy runs three RF-7s up front with RB-81's as surrounds. We both had Denon and went to Harman Kardon and it was a serious upgrade in both homes. In both cases the HK was much more musical, much more bass and although the HK's were rated for a lot less wattage, they had much more authority than the Denon's they replaced. I have since moved to Emotiva but my HK is used in my bedroom on some Forte's. He replaced his Denon 38** with the HK 3600 that he bought brand new for $500.00 and it is awesome. Night and day difference.
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My Denon AVR-4806 is that good: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/denon-avr-4806-receiver-12-2005-part-5.html cool.gif
That Denon is very expensive! lol I can't compare a little $800 HK to that...
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post #23 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 08:41 AM
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I currently own Denon, 4311, HK-AVR 254, Onkyo 805 and Denon 3300. Among others, I have also owned an HK AVR-240. Out of all of those the Denon 4311 is the best AVR and that is because of the room correction. I did not use the room correction with either HK AVR. The measured response using REW and a calibrated mic was not as good (flat) as setting levels manually and no correction.

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post #24 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys. Thanks for all the input!!! It's just too bad Harmon Kardon doesn't make a beast like the 635 anymore. My room is pretty big - typical living room with 10' ceilings about 15' deep by 20' wide and open on one side to the dining room which is open to the kitchen. The center channel sits below the wall mounted plasma and the left and right channels are on shelves a foot or further away than the center channel. All channels are higher than they should be (but angled down) so the setup is far from ideal but the 635 has no issues making it sound good, at least to me. Some amatures say the room presents 'unsolvable' challenges while professional installers on this forum say they have worked with much worse and made the system sound good.

All I am looking for is a 7.2 AVR that sounds as good as my old AVR 635 with HDMI inputs, one HDMI out and network features. I can live without airplay as I would end up getting Apple TV if I can ever get the HDMI connections on the AVR. I know weight isn't everything, but the new Onkyo 818 is 40lbs for a 7.2 reciever and seems to have plenty of punch - 135w x 7 at 0.08% THD. The 635 has 75W x 7 at 0.07%, but we all know HK would downplay their power back in the day. I bet the 635 puts out close to 100W at 0.07% THD. I have bumped my 'MSRP' budget to around $1500 hoping to spend no more than $1000.

Fry's does carry the Onkyo 818 at full MSRP, which surprises me they carry this high up the chain. I could buy and demo at home for several weeks and then return and order from authorized dealer online to save several hundred $$.

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post #25 of 25 Old 06-14-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
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... all of the comparisons have been on Klipsch RF-7 speakers. ...

You have a REAL nice Home Theater and I suspect that the HK provides more current to drive an All RF-7 (or even a 3 RF-7 ht) system better than a comparably priced Denon (in the mid to lower end catagory)...That being said, I am curious how the Denon AVR-43XX series handles the impedance dips of running several large Reference speakers in a HT configuration.
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