Do three 6.5" woofers really take the place of a 12" or 15" woofer? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 57 Old 06-18-2012, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Alcasid View Post

I don't understand how the window can be stretched horizontally just by adding another woofer.
It isn't. It's narrowed by using a larger woofer rather than two smaller woofers vertically aligned.

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post #32 of 57 Old 06-18-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It isn't. It's narrowed by using a larger woofer rather than two smaller woofers vertically aligned.

Oh I get that a 15" has a narrower dispersion than 7". My question was should a TM and MTM with the same drivers have the same horizontal dispersion? The MTM will have a narrower vertical coverage. I'm just wonder since many characterize an MTM as having wider dispersion but don't see how that is possible.
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post #33 of 57 Old 06-18-2012, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Alcasid View Post

My question was should a TM and MTM with the same drivers have the same horizontal dispersion?
Yes.
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I'm just wonder since many characterize an MTM as having wider dispersion but don't see how that is possible.
It isn't. It will only have wider dispersion than a single driver cab that use a larger woofer.

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post #34 of 57 Old 06-18-2012, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I'll do better than that. Here's a $200 eight inch driver with 5mm xmax;
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-894
And from the same manufacturer a $90 eight inch driver with 12mm xmax:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-920
Excursion is not directly related to either driver size or price. It took me all of two minutes to find these two drivers, and these aren't isolated examples by any means.

Wow, this thread took off since I've been here.

Thanks for the links, but unfortunately you answered a question I didn't mean to ask smile.gif So, the subject here is woofers, which I will define as the lowest frequency drivers in a finished product we call a "speaker." If we keep it to 3-way speakers, we can consider that we're talking about what people generally consider "bass" frequencies. My position is that two speakers, of similar price, same enclosure theory, similar -3db point etc., with say, dual 8" woofers of different manufacture, will have similar excursion from those woofers. Therefore, one can get an idea easily of how various woofer compliments compare. This assumes that total Vd consistently has some meaningful baring on bass performance so a comparison is meaningful to begin with.

If a consumer is looking at, I don't know, a transmission line setup vs. a sealed setup, for all I know, the needs of the designers of each would vary enough to make comparisons meaningless, but one would hope the consumer would realize this.

Since you misunderstood my question, with some help from me, I won't make fun of you trying to compare a driver specifically designed for sub use to a driver designed for single driver use smile.gif I get that you found the widest variation you could quickly, but it proves my point more than yours I think - we're not talking about subs and 8 octave range woofers, we're talking about the woofers in the kinds of speakers 99% of people actually purchase.

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post #35 of 57 Old 06-18-2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by fjames View Post

. My position is that two speakers, of similar price, same enclosure theory, similar -3db point etc., with say, dual 8" woofers of different manufacture, will have similar excursion from those woofers. .
They won't, but you're entitled to your opinion and I'm not going to belabor the point.

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post #36 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post

Is everyone from The Outback so RUDE? It's Ok to have a different opinion but you sir have poor manners. On another thread you TOLD me You don't care what Paul Kipsch had to say... like you were schooling me and you were smarter then him and Me. Most of us here are grown Men and act like it. Do try to express your self in a more polite manner and some of your comments will be taken better. You come as a KNOW IT ALL on about every post I have seen from you.
I call it as it see it; if you don't like that, I don't care. I was not intentionally rude, I just expect that 'grown men' who have been on the internet for more than a day to understand that most communication that would be expressed in person is not conveyed via keyboard and I don't see the need to spoon feed 'grown men' as such in case their feelings get hurt. The impression we seem to be fed about people from the Lone Star State is that they are not little preciouses - seems that was wrong.

It is ironic that you use the term Outback, I assume as some sort of snide pejorative, but the two guys who deloped what became an extremely accurate method for modelling and defining speaker parameters are fellow Outbackians - Thiele and Small, in the 70's. Early this century, another Outbackian made one of the greatest ongoing advantages to horn design with his software Hornresp

As for your original claim of 102dB1W/1m for the Cornwalls, you "bought new in 1979", seems the Klipsch site disagrees with you too. Sensitivty 98.5dB.
T/S derived sensitivity: 96.6dB/W/m

The later Cornwall II uses a different bass driver, the K43E (typo in the Klipsch page) and claims sensitivity of 101dB/W/m +/- 5dB.
T/S derived sensitivity: 96.3dB.

Physics overrules advertising. If Paul Klipsch was discussing it here, I would ask how he had achieved what physics (known since the early 70's) says it cannot. And I would ask that bluntly. This is fairly basic well understood EE theory, and without a cogent answer he would be in line to get one of his own buttons. Having actually measured some of the drivers, and the ones in my Heresys and the T/S not backing up the claims, it's a fair enough question to ask an engineer, and get a straight answer on.

What they claim is not possible with the specs of the driver, but it is not the first time they have done it.
Klipsch RB81
Klipsch RB81 -II
Note in the specs tab: SENSITIVITY: 97dB @ 2.83V / 1m
I included both as I was unsure which version was tested.

RB81 Independently measured.
Note: All passive loudspeakers were measured with grilles at a distance of 1 meter with a 2.83-volt input and scaled for display purposes.

The difference is 5-6dB, as much as a 4x difference in power required for a given SPL between what is advertised, and what is measured. As Klipsch speakers are often promoted (at least colloquially) as being suitable for the user of small tube amps because of their high sensitivity, and when they are actually not anywhere near as sensitive as advertised, the (no technical) buyer is not going to get what they thought. That deserves comment, and as Bill F mentioned in the other thread, I'm sure he would have put it to right. but as he's gone, he's not actually running it any more.

I'm snipping this out for further comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Bartay 
You don't care what Paul Kipsch had to say... like you were schooling me and you were smarter then him and Me
First of all, it is the Klipsch company now, not PWK who is posting this information and when your model was released, it was difficult to measure sensitivity well, and hard to define from driver specs as it was pre T/S. In some regards I probably do know more than him, because a lot has happened in the decade since he has died, and in the years before then when he was less involved in engineering. The physics and engineering aspects were well developed back then, but far less easily available than today, and now we have massively more powerful modelling, development and measurement tools than even when PWK died, let alone when he began. I always viewed PWK as an engineer whom I respected, not someone to be idolised as many 'philes do (and to others as well). I have all of the Dope From Hope (at least I think I do) and have owned Khorn, LaScala, Hersey and KPT250, listened to, measured and modified them, so I have a far greater depth of knowledge of the units than someone who has just used them and as such I have the right to comment when I see an anomaly.

In the end, I think you just got your knickers in a knot because I dared sully the claims made about your speaker, with evidence, and by connection someone you look up to, when the latter is certainly not correct.
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post #37 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

when your model was released, it was difficult to measure sensitivity well, and hard to define from driver specs as it was pre T/S.
Point of fact, accurate response and sensitivity measurement gear and techniques have existed since the 1920s; measurements made of his speakers by PK were no less accurate than those we can take today. Where T/S enters the picture is that it makes it possible to accurately predict low frequency response and sensitivity, whereas PK couldn't be sure what he'd get until after he built it and then measured it.

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post #38 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Yes. It isn't. It will only have wider dispersion than a single driver cab that use a larger woofer.

and would it be a function of pitch between the two woofers in the MTM? ie. how far they are placed apart?
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post #39 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

and would it be a function of pitch between the two woofers in the MTM? ie. how far they are placed apart?
It's a function of wavelength, not pitch.

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post #40 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's a function of wavelength, not pitch.

as in they would supplement each other, making it sound bigger than it actually is?
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post #41 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

as in they would supplement each other, making it sound bigger than it actually is?
You totally lost me.

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post #42 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Point of fact, accurate response and sensitivity measurement gear and techniques have existed since the 1920s; measurements made of his speakers by PK were no less accurate than those we can take today.
I don't agree entirely, but my point was more to give 'some' benefit of the doubt. There is some more wiggle room in a screen shot off a CRO or a plotter than a modern digital measurement and computation. I designed, built and calibrated my own log/log amps and plotter system way back.

However, what I reckon they actually do (at least for the Heritage range) is eyeball/calculate the broadband sensitivity from the measurements, find a peak in the response and call that the 'sensitivity'. Whilst it is 'technically' that sensitive at the peak, and that value still falls within the FR tolerances provided, it does not represent the broadband sensitivity and could legally be argued as not dishonest, is certainly disingenuous. As I'm sure you're well aware, many still do it today, and Zu would be the most egregious example I can think of at the moment.
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post #43 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You totally lost me.

Me too....this is what I mean by pitch

Pitch.GIF
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post #44 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

Me too....this is what I mean by pitch
That isn't musical pitch, it looks like the pitch of a threaded rod or bolt. And musical pitch isn't wavelength.

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post #45 of 57 Old 06-19-2012, 07:46 PM
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I meant the distance between the speaker cones / woofer
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post #46 of 57 Old 06-20-2012, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

I meant the distance between the speaker cones / woofer
I still don't understand what you're getting at. The distance between the drivers has nothing to do with pitch, be it musical, geometric or organic.

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post #47 of 57 Old 06-20-2012, 06:45 AM
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I don't think any woofer under 10" really replaces a larger woofer. They wouldn't even make separate 12"-15" woofers if this was the case.

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Of course, I got it modified with the TK-427, which cheeks it up another, maybe, 3 or 4 quads per channel.
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post #48 of 57 Old 06-20-2012, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MrEastSide View Post

I don't think any woofer under 10" really replaces a larger woofer. They wouldn't even make separate 12"-15" woofers if this was the case.
The reason why larger drivers are made is that they are more cost effective for achieving a given SPL output than a grouping of smaller woofers. If the number one priority is dBs per dollar spent you use a larger woofer. If the number one priority is dispersion you use multiple smaller woofers. If the number one priority is as small a box size as possible you use a single smaller driver.

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post #49 of 57 Old 06-20-2012, 11:43 AM
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+1 (though to me those BICs look uncomfortably close to "white van" speakers).

As far as the Cerwin-Vegas are concerned, they get around the dispersion problems of large woofers by using midrange drivers crossed over much lower than traditional three-ways of years past and many thin/multiple woofer floorstanders sold today. For example, the single 15" XLS model uses a 6.5" mid driver (really more of a midbass in this case) crossed over way down at 280Hz. The 12" model, 380Hz. Besides solving most of the dispersion issues, allowing that 6.5" driver to handle pretty much all the mid frequencies means the woofer doesn't need to do so, meaning it can be optimized for the lower frequencies. And not having a xover point ocurring right in the middle of the important mid frequencies is a definite plus. Lastly, Cerwin has traditionally tried to keep their products affordable, so as mentioned already using one large woofer helps keep their prices down (though they do sell a handful of multiple-woofer models).

Also, using a larger woofer means the potential for less distortion because a larger woofer needs to move less to move the same amount of air as a smaller woofer that needs to travel further to do the same thing (moving further can mean increasing the chances of cone flex and stretching the cone's surround & spider closer to their mechanical limits), not to mention the voice coil gets closer to its travel limits i.e. the farther it moves out of the magnetic gap, the higher the amount of distortion.*

So to me anyway, there's still a place for 3-way speakers, even when used along with a subwoofer. Oh and btw, for most music genres you can still use just two (large enough) speakers in a stereo system and still end up with very good bass: while I admit that relatively speaking it won't be of as high a quality as an optimized sat+sub system, I think it can still provide for a very enjoyable listening session for many people. "The perfect is the enemy of the good" - Voltaire

And YES, I do believe in using subwoofers, particularly for movie soundtracks (until it was ruined by a power surge, my 12" Velodyne added a lot of fun & added realism to my system).


* anyone who enjoys the sound of acoustic-suspension speakers - yours truly for example smile.gif - knows there are tradeoffs for that particular system, since such speakers need the increased woofer cone excursion to offset the lack of a tuned port a.k.a. a bass-reflex enclosure. And that tradeoff is usually found in their lowered efficiency, partly caused by the long voice coil used in the woofers of such speakers to decrease the chances of the v.c. moving too far out of the magnetic gap
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post #50 of 57 Old 06-21-2012, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I still don't understand what you're getting at. The distance between the drivers has nothing to do with pitch, be it musical, geometric or organic.

The distance between the drivers is what I meant by pitch. Sorry I got you all mixed up.
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post #51 of 57 Old 06-21-2012, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

The distance between the drivers is what I meant by pitch. Sorry I got you all mixed up.
Quote:
Pitch is a perceptual property that allows the ordering of sounds on a frequency-related scale.[1] Pitches are compared as "higher" and "lower" in the sense associated with musical melodies,[2] which require "sound whose frequency is clear and stable enough to be heard as not noise".[3] Pitch is a major auditory attribute of musical tones, along with duration, loudness, and timbre.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28music%29

The "distance between the drivers" has nothing to do with the pitch.

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post #52 of 57 Old 06-21-2012, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That isn't musical pitch, it looks like the pitch of a threaded rod or bolt. And musical pitch isn't wavelength.

I just spit coffee... that was great and will have to go into my signature rotation.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #53 of 57 Old 06-21-2012, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

I meant the distance between the speaker cones / woofer

I think you are thinking about center to center distance of woofer to tweeter. That is a function of the crossover point that has been selected for one driver to hand off to the next. That crossover point determines center to center distance.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #54 of 57 Old 06-27-2014, 04:56 AM
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This is a GREAT topic of discussion. Before I go on, I must admit I am a noob But let me throw in some input anyways


As I am into the DIY route, when choosing or designing a speaker one of the hardest things is to determine what size woofers, crossover points, cab volume etc.


The main thing I can say is the bigger the better for MOST situations. This being said, if you wish to keep cost down use a larger woofer. If you want more SPL, use a larger woofer. If you want less distortion, use a larger woofer. If you want more tactical feel, use a larger woofer. If you want an ugly speaker, use a larger woofer


Hope this helps. Just know everything in life is trade offs. The main trade of with larger woofers is the aesthetic look. Think of a labtop vs. a desktop... The desktop will always have more power, more storage, faster, but will lack in the aesthetic part and the "large" factor.
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post #55 of 57 Old 06-27-2014, 09:15 AM
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Can we look at an example? I currently have 2 of these:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_i...specifications

as mains and one of these as my center http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_i...seq=1&format=2

please stop laughing.

I recently build my own subs and love them and now i'm onto my mains. I'd like to stay close to on-wall if i can due to waf. So I have narrowed it down to 3 of these:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...sion4-kit.html

or 3 of these (if i can get DIYSG to rotate the tweeter so i can use the MTM's as mains):

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...6-mtm-kit.html

I think that if the total swept volume of air produced by whatever I choose is less than my current in-walls I will be taking a step back SPL wise although gaining sound quality wise right? How would one choose otherwise?

Pete
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post #56 of 57 Old 06-27-2014, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by fjames

If you can provide numbers that show commonly used drivers of the same nominal diamteer, as used in similar price point end products have relevantly different Vd, that would be interesting.

I'll do better than that. Here's a $200 eight inch driver with 5mm xmax;
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-894

And from the same manufacturer a $90 eight inch driver with 12mm xmax:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-920

Excursion is not directly related to either driver size or price. It took me all of two minutes to find these two drivers, and these aren't isolated examples by any means.
So we would assume that the driver with the 5mm xmax is designed to be a woofer while the 12 xmax model is designed for subwoofer use?
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post #57 of 57 Old 06-27-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
So we would assume that the driver with the 5mm xmax is designed to be a woofer
It's a full range driver.

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