BEST sounding in-walls - period... - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 48 Old 10-02-2012, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I certainly wouldn't assume the speakers you list are better than the BG LA800's, though I suspect you didn't bother to do any research to see what you were commenting on. I won't bother commenting on the balance of that post.

Don't bother. As you can see from his posts in this thread he knows nothing about speaker design and I seriously doubt has actually heard a top end in-wall speaker. He has some disdain for in-wall speakers and constantly trolls in just about every in-wall thread.
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post #32 of 48 Old 10-02-2012, 12:31 PM
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Martin Logan has expanded their in-wall speaker offerings. They have some nice designs although I have no idea how they compare to other in-wall brands. It is sure nice that speaker manufacturers are getting into this market as they can solve many install problems! Hope to see some reviews.
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post #33 of 48 Old 10-02-2012, 02:11 PM
 
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Depending on price (ie, you need a low price), the Axiom Audio M2 and M3 in wall speakers are nice speakers. They are fully enclosed.
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post #34 of 48 Old 10-02-2012, 02:37 PM
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Atlantic Technology IWTS

Not the loudest, but excellent sound.
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post #35 of 48 Old 10-02-2012, 03:16 PM
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The better in-walls from RBH, Triad, Klipsch, BG Radia and Atlantic Technology are all very good. I have RBH SI-760's in one of my rooms. In the same system I have some of their box counterparts and I can't tell the difference between the two.
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post #36 of 48 Old 10-02-2012, 04:11 PM
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My wife and I love our James Baby Grands...
We use the James M1000 Sub Amp not the QSC.

http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/datasheets/JLS_bGrand.pdf

I will try and post a picture of our installation sometime...

VSX-53, VSX-51,VSX-81 Pioneer Elites and Denon 1611
James loudspeaker inwalls main and future theater
Control4
Other speaker zones DefTech, Polk, Russound, Boston Acoustics
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post #37 of 48 Old 02-13-2013, 04:52 PM
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This is for commysman. I have a pair of Definitive Technology UIW BPA L/R, Definitive Technology DI 5.5 for Center, a pair of Definitive Technology UIW 64 for n ceiling surround, all are open with no "box" and designed with what Definitive Technology calls an infinite baffle. I have a SVS SB 12 for the sub which puts out plenty of bass. They sound good to me, but then again I am not a douche.
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post #38 of 48 Old 02-14-2013, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

You guys can stand around and pat each other on the back all you want, and you still are dead wrong.

In-wall speakers almost invariably do not have the proper volume, enclosure mass, bracing, or damping needed for proper driver operation. Those are just a few of their basic failings.

As others have said, not necessarily. A sufficient volume filled with good damping material (fiberglass or Bonded Logic recycled denim insulation) will work just fine.

In-walls have some serious advantages, in terms of diffraction (unless there's a lot of stuff on the front wall), efficiency (no "baffle step" that requires compensation), and so on. They also have the disadvantage of being un-aimable. If one can construct angled walls to properly aim the speakers, like so:

(Source.)
then in-walls can be far superior to in-the-room speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As any competent speaker designer knows, the very fact that they have to be designed to fit in the typical thin wall compromises the enclosure design in fatal ways, no matter how high the cost or how good the designer. Ask any speaker engineer if you really want to know the truth. Calling my comments ridiculous displays a total lack of actual speaker design knowledge. It says nothing about me, and a lot about you, when you dismiss me as a dork based on zero knowledge!

So, Andrew Jones fatally compromised the design of the four-figure Pioneer EX in-walls by not giving a back-cabinet for the woofer? (The concentric driver is in its own braced subenclosure.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The speakers I have at home are Vandersteen Model 3A ($4500+) at one home and Gallo Acoustics CL-3 ($1700) at my other home. Does that sound like "budget home-brew" to you?

No, but neither speaker is objectively very good, either. Both speakers are very colored, in fact. The Vandy has decent on-axis performance but requires a lot of careful room treatment to sound decent due to the abysmal horizontal polars. See Klippel, Toole, Olive, etc.

The Gallo is even worse, with not only a very midrange-heavy on-axis response due to Mr. Gallo's lack of understanding of basic crossover circuit design, but also a mushroom cloud-shaped midrange polar response due to the poor directivity match between the 1970s Pioneer piezo tweeter clone and the too-large cheap midwoofer.

As for "best" in-wall, I don't know. I'm very impressed with the Pioneer EX's. So impressed that when I heard them I scrapped my ground-up design for a design based on their components. Mr. Cowan's Unity horn system, supra, or PaulW's "Octagon," are the most thoroughly thought-out in-wall installations known to me, though I've heard neither one.

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post #39 of 48 Old 02-20-2013, 10:11 AM
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I am looking at having installed an in wall speaker system.

The company has given me two options.

1 has Episode es-700 left and right and rear and es-500 center and episode subwoofer ES-SUB-CUB8-110 with a marantz 5007 reciever. The y are not the es-700 HT but the cheaper version.

The other has Klipsch 265-ls L&R and 65-rt as rear and 255-ls as center and in wall episode sub with a EA-AMP-SUB-1D-110 with 7005 marantz reciever

The episode setup is much cheaper by about $2,000.

What do you guys think are the polk much better? I have read about in walls needing their own enclosure but it looks like the epsiodes don't only the HT versions, I can't tell if the Polk do. What about rh sub.. the inwall is in the more expensive setup but are in-wall subs ok even with the amplifier?

Right now I have bose 301 and a JBL Center speaker S -series with no rear and no sub from a few years back. My question being clearly the novice that I am is will these in walls sound better than my setup even though they are in-wall? My wife wants them but I don't want subpar sound because of aesthetics. Also my rear wall is 24 feet from the TV, is that a problem.. i don't think I can do inceling because it is concrete.

One more question I have is the wall they will be mounted on is the wall separating my living room and bedroom. Am I now making it so the sound will carry into the bedroom more than if the speakers were just mounted on the wall instead of in the wall. One option is to have all the wiring done but a speaker port sticking out of the wall this way I can still keep all my cable box/receiver in the closet yet use my existing speakers.

Thanks for helping out a newbie,
Dan
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post #40 of 48 Old 02-20-2013, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpraid View Post

I am looking at having installed an in wall speaker system.

The company has given me two options.

1 has Episode es-700 left and right and rear and es-500 center and episode subwoofer ES-SUB-CUB8-110 with a marantz 5007 reciever. The y are not the es-700 HT but the cheaper version.

The other has Klipsch 265-ls L&R and 65-rt as rear and 255-ls as center and in wall episode sub with a EA-AMP-SUB-1D-110 with 7005 marantz reciever

The episode setup is much cheaper by about $2,000.

What do you guys think are the polk much better? I have read about in walls needing their own enclosure but it looks like the epsiodes don't only the HT versions, I can't tell if the Polk do. What about rh sub.. the inwall is in the more expensive setup but are in-wall subs ok even with the amplifier?

Right now I have bose 301 and a JBL Center speaker S -series with no rear and no sub from a few years back. My question being clearly the novice that I am is will these in walls sound better than my setup even though they are in-wall? My wife wants them but I don't want subpar sound because of aesthetics. Also my rear wall is 24 feet from the TV, is that a problem.. i don't think I can do inceling because it is concrete.

One more question I have is the wall they will be mounted on is the wall separating my living room and bedroom. Am I now making it so the sound will carry into the bedroom more than if the speakers were just mounted on the wall instead of in the wall. One option is to have all the wiring done but a speaker port sticking out of the wall this way I can still keep all my cable box/receiver in the closet yet use my existing speakers.

Thanks for helping out a newbie,
Dan

Can you give us the prices and overall budget?

Since your bedroom is on the other side of the wall, I would implore you to either buy an speaker that has an engineered enclosure, or one that the manufacturer has a backer-box for.
I would skip the Episode sub and stay away from an in-wall sub if you can and just buy this item yourself. You will most likely get more bang for the buck this way.

I suspect both of these solutions will sound better than what you have now, but until we know your budget and prices you are getting quoted it is hard to say.

I would also get at least two more quotes if possible from other local companies.
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post #41 of 48 Old 02-20-2013, 04:40 PM
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Either way it's going to be noisy in your bedroom unless you take steps to put some sort of sound insulation in the room that you will be using for your home theater. This website explains it very well:


http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #42 of 48 Old 02-24-2013, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeTheaterGuy74 View Post

Hi:

Anyone have any input on the best sounding in-wall speakers - period?

Wisdom Audio Sage Series confused.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Triad and BG Radia have been my favorite in-wall speakers I've auditioned.

Have a listen to Triad in-wall Gold/Silver Monitors..................or BG Radia in-walls ie. LA-800/600 for LCR and SS-303 for surrounds.

I 2nd the BG Radia mention. My company had been a Triad dealer for a short time and if you were to A/B the Triad and the BG products at any given price point (in-wall or not) it's not even close.

BG Radia makes some of the finest speakers in the world... period - The fact that they are in-wall is just a bonus. I prefer them over any in-room model I have ever heard as well. The only thing that I have heard that left close to the same impression of "Woah" was the Martin Logan Montis setup at CEDIA in a specially designed room with about $60k worth of Mac amps and other electronics on them. Even then.... I would prefer the BG LA-600 or LA-800 (depending on rows of seating). The SA-360 is also an incredible speaker for an LCR and a single row of seating. It can fill a 40x60x9 room with reference level output while maintaining the utmost clarity and sonic integrity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you are discussing *just* unenclosed in-walls, you have a point. However, there are many properly designed in-walls that have their own integral enclosure. Here are a few:

Triad Gold In-Wall LCR:
423

Klipsch KL-7800 THX Ultra2 In-Wall:
223

Def Tech UIW RLS II:
500

Atlantic Technology IWTS-30 LCR In-Wall THX Ultra2:
190

These all have their own integral enclosures, designed to augment the drivers in exactly the same way any other speaker box does. They're isolated from the wall cavity by the enclosure so sound bleed into adjacent spaces is significantly reduced. In addition, they have the *advantage* over freestanding speakers of being infinite baffle designs, so SBIR is reduced as well. Since you clearly don't understand any of that, here is an article that explains it. It describes putting a freestanding speaker into a baffle wall to *improve* it's response. Read it and learn something:
http://www.triadspeakers.com/pmi/pdfs/040601_baffled_again.pdf

Craig

Over the years I have been a dealer of three of the four speaker brands pictured above (with the exception being DefTech). All are good speakers that do their jobs well. But, they are what they are: Point source domed & horn. These cannot compete with BG standard array planar in-walls on any level, let alone the line arrays of which, when comparing, introduce significant, real world advantages in room interaction and decay.

The enclosure debate is one that carries little weight with me. Doing this for a living for so many years I have seen great speakers from both sides of the table. It really doesn't matter as long as your wall cavity is suitable.

Lots of companies choose to engineer things certain ways. BG speakers can be expensive depending on the model and they are all open backed. They are not left open because of price consideration concerns. It is an engineering choice done on purpose.
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post #43 of 48 Old 02-24-2013, 09:28 AM
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Here is a pic of a BG Line Array LA-800

R800-nogrille.jpg 40k .jpg file
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post #44 of 48 Old 10-03-2013, 01:06 PM
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I have been following this thread with great interest because I, too, am looking for an in-wall speaker system. The problem is that I am not able to find pricing information on some of the brands. I would be greatful if you could suggest a 5 speaker setup, without subwoofer, for an in-wall installation, preferrably enclosed so I don't have to deal with a custom built backing. Speakers would be behind a Denon AVR-3311CI. Budget is between $2,500 and $3,000. Room is a normal living room, about 25x30, with cathedral ceiling and single row seating. Appreciate your feedback in advance.
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post #45 of 48 Old 10-03-2013, 02:50 PM
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I have in walls for my surrounds and surround backs. Mostly because of the Wife Factor. I have Paradigm Speakers all around and a Sunfire HRS-12 Sub. All 4 surrounds are Paradigm SA-15R's. I believe the fronts should be stand alones, as which I have. If I didn't have to put up with the Wife Factor, my surrounds MAY have been stand alones.

While I was building my 16 X 24 Addition, I had a old Akai 2 Channel receiver connected to just 2 surrounds to listen to while I worked on the room. Just 2 of those Paradigms rocked the room. To me, the surrounds are just for ambiance. Some of you probably disagree with me on this. The action is up front. The most important thing is location. Once you cut those holes, you are committed. The thing I like about in walls is your room don't look too over powered with speakers.

An advantage I had was I was able to build speaker enclosures made of OSB while the room was being constructed to enhance the bass. The walls are 2 X 6 and I stuffed insulation in the enclosures. I am totally satisfied in how my system sounds. I know I can make things even better with Room Enhancements, but first I'll test the waters. I don't know how she would react to me placing panels on the walls. smile.gif

(LCD - Sony KDL - XBR4) (Receiver - Sony STR-DA4ES)(Blu Ray - Oppo BDP-83) (PS3)( Dish Hopper DVR With Sling) Speakers (L & R - Paradigm Studio 20) (Center -Paradigm CC-470) (Surrounds & Back Surrounds - Paradigm SA-15R in walls) (Subwoofer 1 - Sunfire HRS-12) (Subwoofer 2 - Paradigm PW-2100)
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post #46 of 48 Old 10-03-2013, 03:01 PM
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Having spent collosal amounts of money on big bg radia in walls 20k and freestanding avantgarde duo omega horns, retail 30k.

(Same room)

In walls are not remotely close.

Blazar!
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post #47 of 48 Old 10-03-2013, 07:17 PM
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Old thread, but... whatever.

The bottom line question is this: Why are "integral enclosures" essential to in-wall speakers?

Background: A speaker driver moves forward and backward to generate air pressure in front of, and behind, the driver. These pressurizations and rarefactions of the air then propagate as soundwaves. The front side of the driver generates forward propagating waves; the back side of the driver generates rearward propagating waves. At high frequencies, the soundwaves propagate primarily forward/backward, almost "beaming" these frequencies. However, as frequencies drop, the soundwaves spread out their dispersion, and at bass frequencies the dispersion is virtually omnidirectional. At low frequencies, the front wave from the driver can "wrap around" the driver and virtually cancel the back wave. A driver in free air, (with no enclosure around it), will sound like it's all treble, with almost no bass. This is because the bass waves are cancelled by this "wrap-around" phenomenon. A "baffle" is needed to separate the front wave from the back wave so they can propagate independently and without interference.

An "infinite baffle" is an acoustically non-porous divider that is infinitely wide and infinitely tall. It completely isolates the front wave from the rear wave. Each wave can propagate into it's own space free of interference from the opposing wave. They'll propagate 180 degrees out of phase with each other, but it won't matter because they'll be in completely separate spaces. Of course, nothing can be infinitely wide or tall, but as long as the baffle is larger than 1 wavelength of the lowest frequency of interest, it will effectively block the interference of the front wave and the back wave.

A sealed "enclosure" also separates the front wave from the back wave and allows the front wave to propagate without interference from the back wave. In a sealed enclosure, the air molecules excited by the front wave are isolated from the air molecules excited by the back wave, at least to the extent that the enclosure material is non-porous to sound transmission. However, the inside of the sealed enclosure adds a "spring" to the driver. As the driver moves inwards, it builds positive pressure inside the enclosure pushing back on the driver. As the driver moves outwards, pressure inside the box becomes negative and it "pulls" the driver back inwards. These positive and negative pressures inside the box "load" the driver, and these pressures need to be overcome with extra amplifier power and driver control.

(I am not going to address ported enclosures here because no one that I'm aware of is building ported in-wall speakers. AFAIK, all in-wall designs are either infinite baffle or sealed designs. Suffice it to say that ported/vented designs are a special case between sealed and infinite baffle.) End Background

So, getting back to the original question: Why are integral enclosures essential to in-wall speakers?

First, and most importantly, a single layer of 1/2" drywall is porous to sound. Please study the following graphs:





We see that the Sound Transmission Class, (STC) of drywall is only "fair" at midrange frequencies, but as the frequency falls, so does the STC. At low frequencies, the STC is quite low. This means sound will "bleed" into adjacent spaces. It also means that the front wave and the back wave will "bleed through" the baffle drywall to interfere with each other. This will cause some cancellation. At frequencies below 100 Hz or so, the response won't be as bad as the "free air" response, but it won't be much better than that either. If the wall is made of dual layers of 5/8" drywall the performance improves significantly, but hardly anyone does that for in-wall speakers. It's done often for sound isolation, but not to improve the sound quality for in-wall speakers.

The other significant issue is the "loading" of the drivers. Different drivers perform differently with different "acoustic loads." The Theil-Small, (TS), parameters determine how well a given driver will perform with different loads. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small A speaker designer should be accounting for the specific TS parameters of the specific drivers he/she uses in his/her design. That is virtually impossible to do without knowing the "load" on the drivers. With an unenclosed in-wall it is impossible to know the load on the drivers. The designer can't know the volume of the enclosure or how well it's sealed or damped. The "enclosure" could be an interior wall using 1/2" drywall attached to wood studs with drywall screws and with no insulation. The "chamber" could be a floor to ceiling space, wide open, with no insulation, between 2 studs. Or, the "enclosure" could be in an exterior, insulated wall, using 5/8" drywall in the "cripple" space above a window, with the drywall "glued and screwed" to the studs. Those 2 "enclosures" would present very different, volumes, dampening and sealing, which will mean very different backloads to the drivers. How an in-wall speaker designer can design a speaker that accounts for these different installation possibilities is beyond me.

Other important issues are sound "flanking," sound transmission to A/C duct work, and wall vibrations. Only audible wall vibrations will affect in-room sound quality, but the other two certainly affect user satisfaction.

OTOH, an in-wall speaker with an "integral enclosure" will allow all the above issues to be accounted for in the design. The designer can predict the volume, dampening and sealing of the enclosure and can compensate for all those things with driver choice. In addition, with this level of predictability, other issues can be addressed with crossover design without regard to things like baffle step compensation or diffraction compensation. Finally, there should be no sound "flanking," no transmission to A/C ductwork and no wall vibrations.

Bottom line... an in-wall speaker with an integral enclosure has the *potential* to be a better speaker than an open-back in-wall. Of course, the final result will be a function of the skill of the speakers designer AND the speaker installer. It's certainly possible that a skilled and experienced installer could optimize an unenclosed in-wall, and get an excellent result. However, if I was a speaker designer, I would not want to put the excellence of my design into the hands of some unknown installer. I would prefer to make the design choices myself and take the installer and the installation out of the equation, as least as much as possible.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #48 of 48 Old 10-03-2013, 09:51 PM
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Adam S7A2s?
amps included!
not grills, though
http://www.adam-audio.com/en/pro-audio/products
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