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HomeTheaterGuy74's Avatar HomeTheaterGuy74
09:18 PM Liked: 10
post #1 of 48
06-15-2012 | Posts: 114
Joined: May 2012
Hi:

Anyone have any input on the best sounding in-wall speakers - period?

Wisdom Audio Sage Series confused.gif
Jay1's Avatar Jay1
09:20 PM Liked: 102
post #2 of 48
06-15-2012 | Posts: 3,982
Joined: Aug 2002
Probably something like these

http://www.genelecusa.com/products/main-monitors/1036a/
pokekevin's Avatar pokekevin
11:41 PM Liked: 101
post #3 of 48
06-15-2012 | Posts: 5,070
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Triad?

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flyingvfreak's Avatar flyingvfreak
12:37 AM Liked: 11
post #4 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 246
Joined: Mar 2009
best?? Who Knows, sound is very subjective.. What sounds good to me may not be good for you and Vice versa, also room acoustics. A triad may sound completely different than a Niles, B&W,Paradigm etc..and the Speaker craft or Polk may be the Sound you want?? .. Why go in Walls?? Just get some Good Box Speakers and be Done..
ack_bk's Avatar ack_bk
06:46 AM Liked: 106
post #5 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 8,841
Joined: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeTheaterGuy74 View Post

Hi:

Anyone have any input on the best sounding in-wall speakers - period?

Wisdom Audio Sage Series confused.gif

I would look into Triad. What is your budget? What size is the room?


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doublewing11's Avatar doublewing11
08:35 AM Liked: 319
post #6 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 3,861
Joined: Feb 2010
Triad and BG Radia have been my favorite in-wall speakers I've auditioned.

Have a listen to Triad in-wall Gold/Silver Monitors..................or BG Radia in-walls ie. LA-800/600 for LCR and SS-303 for surrounds.
commsysman's Avatar commsysman
09:42 AM Liked: 257
post #7 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 5,292
Joined: Dec 2007
The best I have ever heard, by far, are the PSB CW 383 and CW 363 in-wall speakers.

In-wall speakers, of course, are inherently disadvantaged compared to conventional speakers, lacking the proper enclosure volume and loading, and no in-wall speaker will ever be able to approach the sound quality or sound output of good conventional speakers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeTheaterGuy74 View Post

Hi:
Anyone have any input on the best sounding in-wall speakers - period?
Wisdom Audio Sage Series confused.gif

doublewing11's Avatar doublewing11
10:48 AM Liked: 319
post #8 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 3,861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The best I have ever heard, by far, are the PSB CW 383 and CW 363 in-wall speakers.
In-wall speakers, of course, are inherently disadvantaged compared to conventional speakers, lacking the proper enclosure volume and loading, and no in-wall speaker will ever be able to approach the sound quality or sound output of good conventional speakers.

????????????????????????

With proper sealed enclosures the inherently disadvantage over freestanders no longer exists! Ever heard of SBIR issues with free standing speakers? Baffle walls?

Properly designed in wall speakers have significant advantages over free standing speakers..........................
commsysman's Avatar commsysman
11:04 AM Liked: 257
post #9 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 5,292
Joined: Dec 2007
If you ever have a conversation with a speaker designer on this subject, don't be surprised if he laughs so hard you have to hold him up....

Everything you are saying is patently ridiculous and displays a complete lack of knowledge of loudspeaker design.

Any competent designer at any speaker company will freely admit that in-wall designs are highly compromised by severe design restrictions; if you don't know it yet, you should open one or two books on the subject and get an education.



Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

????????????????????????
With proper sealed enclosures the inherently disadvantage over freestanders no longer exists! Ever heard of SBIR issues with free standing speakers? Baffle walls?
Properly designed in wall speakers have significant advantages over free standing speakers..........................

HomeTheaterGuy74's Avatar HomeTheaterGuy74
11:28 AM Liked: 10
post #10 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 114
Joined: May 2012
Well,

According to Audiophile Review in The 25 Ultimate Audiophile Speakers of All Time:

No. 6 Wisdom Audio Sage Series

Oh yes we did. We put an in-wall speaker system on the list. Wisdom Audio deserves it as they are making a serious run at the likes of Wilson Audio, Bowers & Wilkins and others with their line of in-wall speakers. No speaker on this list is better on WAF (wife acceptance factor) than the Wisdom Audio Sage Series. We know a few dealers that would make the argument that there might not be a better sounding speaker on the list – period.

pokekevin's Avatar pokekevin
12:07 PM Liked: 101
post #11 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 5,070
Joined: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you ever have a conversation with a speaker designer on this subject, don't be surprised if he laughs so hard you have to hold him up....

Everything you are saying is patently ridiculous and displays a complete lack of knowledge of loudspeaker design.

Any competent designer at any speaker company will freely admit that in-wall designs are highly compromised by severe design restrictions; if you don't know it yet, you should open one or two books on the subject and get an education.



Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

????????????????????????
With proper sealed enclosures the inherently disadvantage over freestanders no longer exists! Ever heard of SBIR issues with free standing speakers? Baffle walls?
Properly designed in wall speakers have significant advantages over free standing speakers..........................
actually they would be laughing at you...

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pokekevin's Avatar pokekevin
12:07 PM Liked: 101
post #12 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 5,070
Joined: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you ever have a conversation with a speaker designer on this subject, don't be surprised if he laughs so hard you have to hold him up....

Everything you are saying is patently ridiculous and displays a complete lack of knowledge of loudspeaker design.

Any competent designer at any speaker company will freely admit that in-wall designs are highly compromised by severe design restrictions; if you don't know it yet, you should open one or two books on the subject and get an education.



Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

????????????????????????
With proper sealed enclosures the inherently disadvantage over freestanders no longer exists! Ever heard of SBIR issues with free standing speakers? Baffle walls?
Properly designed in wall speakers have significant advantages over free standing speakers..........................
actually they would be laughing at you...

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bfreedma's Avatar bfreedma
02:36 PM Liked: 50
post #13 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 1,952
Joined: Oct 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you ever have a conversation with a speaker designer on this subject, don't be surprised if he laughs so hard you have to hold him up....

Everything you are saying is patently ridiculous and displays a complete lack of knowledge of loudspeaker design.

Any competent designer at any speaker company will freely admit that in-wall designs are highly compromised by severe design restrictions; if you don't know it yet, you should open one or two books on the subject and get an education.



Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

????????????????????????
With proper sealed enclosures the inherently disadvantage over freestanders no longer exists! Ever heard of SBIR issues with free standing speakers? Baffle walls?
Properly designed in wall speakers have significant advantages over free standing speakers..........................

1958 called - it wants it's speaker knowledge back.

Seriously, it's been a very long time since what you're posting here was accurate.


flyng_fool's Avatar flyng_fool
02:57 PM Liked: 146
post #14 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 3,814
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I see our resident sound engineer rolleyes.gif commy is spouting off his nonsense again.
doublewing11's Avatar doublewing11
06:37 PM Liked: 319
post #15 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 3,861
Joined: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you ever have a conversation with a speaker designer on this subject, don't be surprised if he laughs so hard you have to hold him up....
Everything you are saying is patently ridiculous and displays a complete lack of knowledge of loudspeaker design.
Any competent designer at any speaker company will freely admit that in-wall designs are highly compromised by severe design restrictions; if you don't know it yet, you should open one or two books on the subject and get an education.

Suffice to say, insults go nowhere.......................proverbial fail. rolleyes.gif
ack_bk's Avatar ack_bk
07:08 PM Liked: 106
post #16 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 8,841
Joined: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you ever have a conversation with a speaker designer on this subject, don't be surprised if he laughs so hard you have to hold him up....

Everything you are saying is patently ridiculous and displays a complete lack of knowledge of loudspeaker design.

Any competent designer at any speaker company will freely admit that in-wall designs are highly compromised by severe design restrictions; if you don't know it yet, you should open one or two books on the subject and get an education.



Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

????????????????????????
With proper sealed enclosures the inherently disadvantage over freestanders no longer exists! Ever heard of SBIR issues with free standing speakers? Baffle walls?
Properly designed in wall speakers have significant advantages over free standing speakers..........................

1958 called - it wants it's speaker knowledge back.

Seriously, it's been a very long time since what you're posting here was accurate.

Yep been down this road with this amateur. I posted direct quotes from Triad stating their in-wall and in-room speakers offer the same performance and sound quality. So yeah, I doubt any real speaker designer would laugh at you for using in-wall speakers. I have also toured the RBH headquarters in Utah, and had the pleasure of speaking with their designers about their in-wall speakers and they echo what Triad states. In-wall speakers can and do sound as good or better than their in-room equivalent. Some people just cannot grasp this concept. But I guess there were people that used to believe the world is flat too.. There are advantages to in-wall speakers as well. I would not trade mine for in-room speakers. They are behind my 125" acoustically transparent screen and, and offered perfect placement and I could use a matching vertical center channel at the perfect height vs a traditional horizontal speaker that would have been placed under the screen and way too low.

Like any speaker there are advantages and disadvantages, but sound quality is not a disadvantage if you buy the right in-wall speaker.




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holt7153's Avatar holt7153
09:07 PM Liked: 112
post #17 of 48
06-16-2012 | Posts: 3,251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

1958 called - it wants it's speaker knowledge back.

biggrin.gif
commsysman's Avatar commsysman
08:08 AM Liked: 257
post #18 of 48
06-17-2012 | Posts: 5,292
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You guys can stand around and pat each other on the back all you want, and you still are dead wrong.

In-wall speakers almost invariably do not have the proper volume, enclosure mass, bracing, or damping needed for proper driver operation. Those are just a few of their basic failings.

But don't be confused by the fundamentals of speakers design, if it's all over your head.



Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

biggrin.gif

flyng_fool's Avatar flyng_fool
09:19 AM Liked: 146
post #19 of 48
06-17-2012 | Posts: 3,814
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Oops! Looks like we struck a sore spot!eek.gif

Too bad you're wrong!
craig john's Avatar craig john
10:12 AM Liked: 354
post #20 of 48
06-17-2012 | Posts: 10,375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

You guys can stand around and pat each other on the back all you want, and you still are dead wrong.
In-wall speakers almost invariably do not have the proper volume, enclosure mass, bracing, or damping needed for proper driver operation. Those are just a few of their basic failings.
But don't be confused by the fundamentals of speakers design, if it's all over your head.
If you are discussing *just* unenclosed in-walls, you have a point. However, there are many properly designed in-walls that have their own integral enclosure. Here are a few:

Triad Gold In-Wall LCR:
423

Klipsch KL-7800 THX Ultra2 In-Wall:
223

Def Tech UIW RLS II:
500

Atlantic Technology IWTS-30 LCR In-Wall THX Ultra2:
190

These all have their own integral enclosures, designed to augment the drivers in exactly the same way any other speaker box does. They're isolated from the wall cavity by the enclosure so sound bleed into adjacent spaces is significantly reduced. In addition, they have the *advantage* over freestanding speakers of being infinite baffle designs, so SBIR is reduced as well. Since you clearly don't understand any of that, here is an article that explains it. It describes putting a freestanding speaker into a baffle wall to *improve* it's response. Read it and learn something:
http://www.triadspeakers.com/pmi/pdfs/040601_baffled_again.pdf

Craig
ack_bk's Avatar ack_bk
01:14 PM Liked: 106
post #21 of 48
06-17-2012 | Posts: 8,841
Joined: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

You guys can stand around and pat each other on the back all you want, and you still are dead wrong.

In-wall speakers almost invariably do not have the proper volume, enclosure mass, bracing, or damping needed for proper driver operation. Those are just a few of their basic failings.

But don't be confused by the fundamentals of speakers design, if it's all over your head.



Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

biggrin.gif

And has been shown to you multiple times, you don't know what you are talking about. As an example, Triad speakers have built-in enclosures. They are not open baffle design. So yes, they have proper mass, bracing, and damping. And per the company they sound identical to their in-room equivalent. But you know this, as this has been discussed with you many times with direct quotes from the company stating this in black and white. You just either seem incapable of understanding this, refuse to accept it, or enjoy trolling.



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ack_bk's Avatar ack_bk
01:18 PM Liked: 106
post #22 of 48
06-17-2012 | Posts: 8,841
Joined: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

You guys can stand around and pat each other on the back all you want, and you still are dead wrong.
In-wall speakers almost invariably do not have the proper volume, enclosure mass, bracing, or damping needed for proper driver operation. Those are just a few of their basic failings.
But don't be confused by the fundamentals of speakers design, if it's all over your head.
If you are discussing *just* unenclosed in-walls, you have a point. However, there are many properly designed in-walls that have their own integral enclosure.

These all have their own integral enclosures, designed to augment the drivers in exactly the same way any other speaker box does. They're isolated from the wall cavity by the enclosure so sound bleed into adjacent spaces is significantly reduced. In addition, they have the *advantage* over freestanding speakers of being infinite baffle designs, so SBIR is reduced as well. Since you clearly don't understand any of that, here is an article that explains it. It describes putting a freestanding speaker into a baffle wall to *improve* it's response. Read it and learn something:
http://www.triadspeakers.com/pmi/pdfs/040601_baffled_again.pdf

Craig

I have already provided this link to him from the Triad site regarding baffle wall enclosures. I don't think he understands it.

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mmiles's Avatar mmiles
04:17 PM Liked: 10
post #23 of 48
06-19-2012 | Posts: 1,963
Joined: Oct 2002
Dali, Joseph Audio, BG, Wisdom($$$) and Tannoy.
k_lewis's Avatar k_lewis
02:06 PM Liked: 13
post #24 of 48
10-01-2012 | Posts: 493
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Wow good thread until I read the rediculous comments by "commsysman" - What a crock. Now, if someone who has actually owned the best in both floor standing and also comparable inwall wants to chime in on their personal experience, I'm all for that- but this person obviously sounds like a dork with a pair of home-brew budget speakers at home, and is just here to incite argument.

My personal opinion, based on actually owning several best-of-the-best floor standing cabinet speakers, and now recently moving to an all BG-Radia inwall system (LA800's etc), it is indeed possible to have inwall designed speakers on par with, if not better than, any traditional cabinet speaker on the market. My LA800's sound as finessed and dramatic as anything I've previously owned or auditioned. I think the key with any inwall is going to be with the installation. Sure, mount them to flabby 1/2" sheetrock and they will sound very marginal. Build a proper recess for them, preferably a dedicated cabinet that mounts in the wall so your sheetrock is simply a covering layer, and they will rock. Room placement is also key so you should also understand your room, because once they are in they are not moving. This is where working with an experienced AV professional will be of benefit, and heck if you're going to drop $18k on a pair of inwalls you probably want to put more thought into installation than your typical DIY project (e.g you're going to put some experienced thought into it vs. whipping out the sawzall and hacking two big holes in your wall and slapping them in).

I built dedicated inwall cabinets for my LA800 mains - each box is 2.89 cu ft, 6" deep / 16" wide 87 3/4" tall (outside dimensions). Cabinet is a CDL approach with the inner wall layer consisting of 1/4" cement (Hardie)board. outer cabinet is 3/4" baltic birch ply. both layers are bonded together with 3mm bitumen elastomer. The entire cabinet is braced every 14" along the outer edges of inside cabinet, with braces running between the face baffle and the rear cabinet. interior walls are lined with 1/4" felt, and cabinet fill is a combo of pink FG and white accoutic poly (about 1.5lbs total per cabinet - .75 pink FG and .75 poly).

Result is a very inert cabinet, and all you hear is the line source drivers. All too often it is easy to not install inwalls properly and get a lot of sound bleed through / resonanance. I suppose in contrast a cabinet speaker has all the "hard work" done for you in terms of proper mounting and enclosure for the drivers, and they can be moved to optimal positioning in the room as needed. You'll pay a premium of course for the cabinet design, and in my case I went with the BG Radia system because it was actually a more cost effective approach to obtaining extremely high fidelity sound vs dropping $50k+ on a pair of equivalent cabineted floor standers. Even after the added expenses of cabinetry and installation for the 800's, still came out way ahead.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK!
02:17 PM Liked: 400
post #25 of 48
10-01-2012 | Posts: 6,045
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Code:
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

Triad and BG Radia have been my favorite in-wall speakers I've auditioned.
Have a listen to Triad in-wall Gold/Silver Monitors..................or BG Radia in-walls ie. LA-800/600 for LCR and SS-303 for surrounds.

This is from direct experience and so, is about as empirical as this type of data gets.

I have owned Revel I-30's and Monitor Audio Gold in-walls and I would not recommend either one. Triad seems to have the right approach to in-walls and if I were going in that direction (I'm not) they would be at the top of the list.
commsysman's Avatar commsysman
02:19 PM Liked: 257
post #26 of 48
10-01-2012 | Posts: 5,292
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As any competent speaker designer knows, the very fact that they have to be designed to fit in the typical thin wall compromises the enclosure design in fatal ways, no matter how high the cost or how good the designer. Ask any speaker engineer if you really want to know the truth. Calling my comments ridiculous displays a total lack of actual speaker design knowledge. It says nothing about me, and a lot about you, when you dismiss me as a dork based on zero knowledge!

The speakers I have at home are Vandersteen Model 3A ($4500+) at one home and Gallo Acoustics CL-3 ($1700) at my other home. Does that sound like "budget home-brew" to you?

The last true "home-brew" speakers I had were made in 1960. I replaced those with a Klipsch 15" Corner Horn system built from a Klipsch kit (not quite home-brew, since Klipsch supplied all the pre-fab parts).

Your overblown and patently ridiculous claims for your "LA800" speakers are laughable to anyone who has actually owned speakers like mine; the sound of yours is 3rd-rate by comparison. Go down to Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica and listen to some Vandersteen speakers, and you will immediately experience sound 10 times better than what you have. The same thing could also be said of top-quality speakers from KEF, PSB, Vienna Acoustics, etc. etc.

Even some of the best in-wall speakers I know of, the PSB CW383 and CW363, are far far inferior to the conventional speakers that PSB makes, and the company and their designers will acknowledge that if asked directly. IMO, anyone who would consider putting several thousand dollars into in-wall speakers has a lot more money than good sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by k_lewis View Post

Wow good thread until I read the rediculous comments by "commsysman" - What a crock. Now, if someone who has actually owned the best in both floor standing and also comparable inwall wants to chime in on their personal experience, I'm all for that- but this person obviously sounds like a dork with a pair of home-brew budget speakers at home, and is just here to incite argument.
My personal opinion, based on actually owning several best-of-the-best floor standing cabinet speakers, and now recently moving to an all BG-Radia inwall system (LA800's etc), it is indeed possible to have inwall designed speakers on par with, if not better than, any traditional cabinet speaker on the market. My LA800's sound as finessed and dramatic as anything I've previously owned or auditioned. I think the key with any inwall is going to be with the installation. Sure, mount them to flabby 1/2" sheetrock and they will sound very marginal. Build a proper recess for them, preferably a dedicated cabinet that mounts in the wall so your sheetrock is simply a covering layer, and they will rock. Room placement is also key so you should also understand your room, because once they are in they are not moving. This is where working with an experienced AV professional will be of benefit, and heck if you're going to drop $18k on a pir of inwalls you probably want to put more thought into installation than your typical DIY project.
I built dedicated inwall cabinets for my LA800 mains - each box is 2.89 cu ft, 6" deep / 16" wide 87 3/4" tall (outside dimensions). Cabinet is a CDL approach with the inner wall layer consisting of 1/4" cement (Hardie)board. outer cabinet is 3/4" baltic birch ply. both layers are bonded together with 3mm bitumen elastomer. The entire cabinet is braced every 14" along the outer edges of inside cabinet, with braces running between the face baffle and the rear cabinet. interior walls are lined with 1/4" felt, and cabinet fill is a combo of pink FG and white accoutic poly (about 1.5lbs total per cabinet - .75 pink FG and .75 poly).
Result is a very inert cabinet, and all you hear is the line source drivers. All too often it is easy to not install inwalls properly and get a lot of sound bleed through / resonanance. I suppose in contrast a cabinet speaker has all the "hard work" done for you in terms of proper mounting and enclosure for the drivers, and they can be moved to optimal positioning in the room as needed.

bfreedma's Avatar bfreedma
03:04 PM Liked: 50
post #27 of 48
10-01-2012 | Posts: 1,952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

As any competent speaker designer knows, the very fact that they have to be designed to fit in the typical thin wall compromises the enclosure design in fatal ways, no matter how high the cost or how good the designer. Ask any speaker engineer if you really want to know the truth. Calling my comments ridiculous displays a total lack of actual speaker design knowledge. It says nothing about me, and a lot about you, when you dismiss me as a dork based on zero knowledge!
The speakers I have at home are Vandersteen Model 3A ($4500+) at one home and Gallo Acoustics CL-3 ($1700) at my other home. Does that sound like "budget home-brew" to you?
The last true "home-brew" speakers I had were made in 1960. I replaced those with a Klipsch 15" Corner Horn system built from a Klipsch kit (not quite home-brew, since Klipsch supplied all the pre-fab parts).
Your overblown and patently ridiculous claims for your "LA800" speakers are laughable to anyone who has actually owned speakers like mine; the sound of yours is 3rd-rate by comparison. Go down to Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica and listen to some Vandersteen speakers, and you will immediately experience sound 10 times better than what you have. The same thing could also be said of top-quality speakers from KEF, PSB, Vienna Acoustics, etc. etc.
Even some of the best in-wall speakers I know of, the PSB CW383 and CW363, are far far inferior to the conventional speakers that PSB makes, and the company and their designers will acknowledge that if asked directly. IMO, anyone who would consider putting several thousand dollars into in-wall speakers has a lot more money than good sense.

I certainly wouldn't assume the speakers you list are better than the BG LA800's, though I suspect you didn't bother to do any research to see what you were commenting on. I won't bother commenting on the balance of that post.
commsysman's Avatar commsysman
03:12 PM Liked: 257
post #28 of 48
10-01-2012 | Posts: 5,292
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I can't imagine what you mean by "research", since the term is totally inappropriate to the subject at hand.

I have heard the LA800 speakers in two homes in the Los Angeles area, and my opinion of them is that they are inferior in sound quality, bass output, and dynamics to any of the better speakers that can be purchased for $1500 or so, such as the KEF Q900 and PSB Image T6 and Gallo Acoustics CL-3 etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I certainly wouldn't assume the speakers you list are better than the BG LA800's, though I suspect you didn't bother to do any research to see what you were commenting on. I won't bother commenting on the balance of that post.

bfreedma's Avatar bfreedma
04:20 PM Liked: 50
post #29 of 48
10-01-2012 | Posts: 1,952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I can't imagine what you mean by "research", since the term is totally inappropriate to the subject at hand.

I have heard the LA800 speakers in two homes in the Los Angeles area, and my opinion of them is that they are inferior in sound quality, bass output, and dynamics to any of the better speakers that can be purchased for $1500 or so, such as the KEF Q900 and PSB Image T6 and Gallo Acoustics CL-3 etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I certainly wouldn't assume the speakers you list are better than the BG LA800's, though I suspect you didn't bother to do any research to see what you were commenting on. I won't bother commenting on the balance of that post.

Did you hear them on the same trip you made to the Ascend factory? rolleyes.gif
holt7153's Avatar holt7153
10:58 AM Liked: 112
post #30 of 48
10-02-2012 | Posts: 3,251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Did you hear them on the same trip you made to the Ascend factory? rolleyes.gif

aah, yes-the alleged trip to Ascend (or was it Axiom or Aperion or Advent?).

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