* Offical HSU Sub Support Thread * - Page 4 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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lwang's Avatar lwang 12:07 PM 06-26-2002
GMan,

I think a VTF-3 would be the best of both world. Max Output mode for HT.
If that is a little pricey, a VTF-2 could do also, although in Max Output mode, it doesn't quite reach 25hz. But the truck hitting you in the chest bass occurs in the >30hz region.
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Sasha_G's Avatar Sasha_G 12:59 PM 06-26-2002
Both the TN1220HO and the TN1225HO will produce 25 Hz bass. The difference being that the 25 model doesn't try as hard to reproduce the very low bass, so it has a little more energy left over to play loudly. You might get some 22Hz bass out of the 25 model, but it won't be quite as strong because it wasn't designed to produce that suff. Saying this, for home theater use the 25 model is the best choice, because most older movies don't have the ultra deep and subsonic bass found in the some recent movies. Some of the recent movies are using more and more ultra-deep bass.

The 20 model is a more balanced approach in that it is designed to produce bass down to the point where sound becomes vibration (20Hz), giving you the flexibility to experience the full range of bass with more music material. However, because it is more balanced, it may not get quite as loud in the 25-80Hz spectrum compared to the more specialized 25 model. It is a tradeoff that you have to make.

Saying that, I would recommend adding a TN25 over the TN20 for chest pounding bass. If you don't mind the tube look, I think it should double the sound intensity in your room. If you put two subwoofers in the same corner there will be roughly a 6db gain, according the research of Tom Nousaine. There will be a diminishing return of loudness when you start adding more than 2. Tom Nousaine published these findings in the June 1996 Audio, entitled "2 Subs in a Corner beats 5 in the Round". This guy knows what he is talking about. He also has presented his papers to the Audio Engineering Society. Hope that helps :)

Dave,

I haven't heard of that before, but it might be that something is loose around the amp area, maybe even inside the amp? I would isolate the sub by turning off the mains, and listen very carefull while the sub plays to see if there were any more clues. Then call Hsu Research again.
PSchweitzer's Avatar PSchweitzer 07:47 AM 06-27-2002
1. On the VTF-3 what is the SPL rating that it reaches in the Maximum output mode at 22 Hz ?

2. Is there a graph of the response like this sub review has: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2001.html

3. How does the VTF-3 compare to:

a. Definitive Technolgy PF 15TL+
b. Klipsch RSW-15
c. KEF TDM 45B
firepinch's Avatar firepinch 04:45 PM 06-27-2002
Oh my god! I received my HSU VTF-3 subwoofer today! Im so disapointed by its output capability... damn I dont even reach for now 105 dB and my Paradigm PS-1000 could do 115 dB before. Im in a 1470 cubic ft room. What the heck? Im gonna try different positions but im affraid that I will not get more SPL. In more, the sub, at this place, sounds like if the woofer was damaged... "bloating sound" but when im far from the sub... or when I move elswhere than in the listening position, I dont hear that bloating. Very strange.

BTW, the sound quality of this sub is really an improvement compared to my PS-1000 subwoofer... no comparison here! And it can go lower than my PS-1000 with more authority. But no 110 dB :S even under!

PLEASE HELP ME!
BrianR's Avatar BrianR 05:11 PM 06-27-2002
Quote:
Originally posted by Sasha_G
The 20 model is a more balanced approach in that it is designed to produce bass down to the point where sound becomes vibration (20Hz), giving you the flexibility to experience the full range of bass with more music material. However, because it is more balanced, it may not get quite as loud in the 25-80Hz spectrum compared to the more specialized 25 model. It is a tradeoff that you have to make.

Wouldn't buying dual/(2) 1220's be the best of both worlds (Loud and Low)? You said yourself that newer releases are hitting down low and it is only going to continue. The VTF-3 sure as hell plays loud but on some movies that dip really low, you have to adjust the crossover down a notch to compensate the sub doesn't bottom or have a lil distortion, but then again it depends what volume you are listening @.
BrianR's Avatar BrianR 05:16 PM 06-27-2002
Quote:
Originally posted by firepinch
Oh my god! I received my HSU VTF-3 subwoofer today! Im so disapointed by its output capability... damn I dont even reach for now 105 dB and my Paradigm PS-1000 could do 115 dB before. Im in a 1470 cubic ft room. What the heck? Im gonna try different positions but im affraid that I will not get more SPL. In more, the sub, at this place, sounds like if the woofer was damaged... "bloating sound" but when im far from the sub... or when I move elswhere than in the listening position, I dont hear that bloating. Very strange.

BTW, the sound quality of this sub is really an improvement compared to my PS-1000 subwoofer... no comparison here! And it can go lower than my PS-1000 with more authority. But no 110 dB :S even under!

PLEASE HELP ME!
I just received a VTF-3 a little over a week ago and the first thing I noticed is the dB's that small enclosure cranks out. Did you calibrate the sub to match the speakers using Avia, Video Essentials or trying an Opti Mode source while using an SPL Meter?

I have hit well over 110dB's and I wasn't even at reference levels and the sub sits on concrete floors, in a room with 2 times the cubic feet you mentioned. Fool around with the sub for a couple more days and try the max extension mode and tell me you cant hit 110dB's easy..............:rolleyes:
firepinch's Avatar firepinch 05:33 PM 06-27-2002
well I dont have the Avia disk. I tired another location... in my bedroom corner. I gain a little bit more output but I gain more output when I crossover it at 60 Hz. It looks like the sub isnt able to punch the mid bass when I set it at 90 Hz. When I set it at 90 Hz (crossover), its like if the woofer sounds bloated, its really weird. Damn I would like so much to have the same output than you!! BTW, im affraid to bottom out the sub... does the VTF-3 has a limiter circuit?

Ahhhh need help!! :( :( :( For now I dont reach more than 105 dB :(
Sasha_G's Avatar Sasha_G 07:32 PM 06-27-2002
Quote:
Wouldn't buying dual/(2) 1220's be the best of both worlds (Loud and Low)?
A dual TN20 setup would get *very* loud, but I suspect GMancusa wanted something *extreme* that really hits the chest. I agree with Lwang that the majority of chest thumping occurs higher than 25 Hz. It's around 30-40 Hz. The room shaking that adds to this experience can occur at multiple frequencies that resonate the foundation. The ultra deep 25 Hz and below gives the feeling the air is shaking around you. What is the resonance frequency of the chest, anyhow :) ?

I accept GMancusa preference for chest thumping. I sometimes like turning up the volume for couple of hours during a movie. As far as I know, it doesn't hurt my ears, as long as its just for a couple of hours. Those thunderous 30s and 40 Hz really can unlock the emotional impact of movies and music, sometimes for the neighbors too :).

Firepinch:

I would give it a few days, but 110 dB sounds like a reasonable expectation. It is possible something is wrong with the driver. The VTF-3 should work out of the box (with a little positioning and dial tweaking) without a long break-in period. The VTF-3 uses a poly-cotton spider and a rubber surround, so it doesn't really need a long break-in period compared to a foam/cotton woofer like the VTF-2's. I would give a few more days anyhow, then call up Hsu Research.

PSchweitzer:

Quote:
Is there a graph of the [VTF-3] response
A Howard Fersler's review should be coming out sometime soon (probably in the $ensible $ound), hopefully with some independent measurements. Barry Barnes and a handful of his buddies tested the VTF-3, and came out with some numbers to show how flat it was (scroll towards the middle of the page):

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...=&pagenumber=2
Ski2Sea2's Avatar Ski2Sea2 11:30 PM 06-27-2002
I just bought a TN1220 with the HSU 250 amp today based on all the great reviews I heard. I live about 20 miles from HSU so I drove up there and picked one up. Setting it up was a breeze except I heard the a loud hum. I fixed the hum by putting on the ground cheater plug that came with the unit. I had a Klipsch ksw-12 before and boy, the 1220 blew this sub to pieces. I heard bass that I never heard before from the Matrix & Lethal Weapon 4. I was impressed with the bass. However, I have 4 problems/questions for you techies out there:

1) I had the Hsu amp only 1/4 up and yet I heard some rattling and knocks in the speaker at certain frequencies. The rattle was quite loud. I also hear knocks as well. I don't have any SPL meters or anything fancy but my ears. Is there a problem with my sub? I tried both dvds mentioned above and both dvds display those symptoms. Is this due to the voice driver being misaligned and if so, can I do something about it or do I just need to take it back to HSU since I live so close to them?

2) Even at medium volume, I can hear bass rumbles on occassion. These rumbles distract me from enjoying my movies. Is it possible that this woofer is picking up too much lower bass frequency and reproducing it eventhough the dvds did not intend those frequencies to be reproduced. Or is it because of problem #1?

3) If problem #2 is not due to woofer problems, would these bass rumbles be resolved by getting the tn1225. In other words, is it possible that the tn1220 has gone so low in bass that I'm not accustomed to and that I might enjoy my movie more if I got the tn1225. Is the tn1225 better for movies. After all, dvd movies are my uttmost priority not music.

4) Has anyone compared the TN1220 to the vtf-3? I was considering the vtf-3 but was told that the TN1220 would have cleaner bass with less distortion and plays about the same SPL as the vtf-3.
firepinch's Avatar firepinch 06:28 AM 06-28-2002
Ahhh S O S !!!! :(

Ski2Sea2,

I have like the same problem than you.. when I say that my VTF-3 sounds like "bloated" in some songs which have heavy KICK DRUM, it sounds bloated when I raise even a bit the volume. Pretty strange.

Others,

I tried the VTF-3 with a crossover at 60 Hz instead of 90 Hz yesterday... pretty interesting, the bloating seems to disappear and the sub goes like 4 dBs louder sometimes. But damn, the bass is more accurate to my ears when the crossover @ 90 Hz (but that bloating makes me crazy). Is it because the sub didnt pass its braking time?

Crankit,

Tell me how you fell with your VTF-3. Did it sounds very loud @110 dB like you said right out of the box? Before reaching 110 dB did you pass any breaking time? For now, I dont want to crank up the sub volume too much cuz im affraid to damage it since it is not yet broken in! Should I be affraid to crank it? Does it have a limiter circuit? Cuz reaching 115 dB with a Paradigm PS-1000 compared to what I have now is pretty strange.

BTW, I like so much the bass quality of the VTF-3... im addicted to it! In fact, this is the most accurate sub ive ever heard! But damn :mad: , I want that this sucker show all its power!

HELP MEEE!
rebop's Avatar rebop 10:26 AM 06-28-2002
I received my VTF-3 Monday and have been posting my experiences on another board. VERY interesting to note that others are having the same experience I am - kick drum bloat.

This VTF-3 replaced two SVS subs which had replaced two Sunfires. I seem to have a very difficult room. The Hsu sounds better in my room than anything before and FABULOUS on DVD's. I have more tactile and pressure than ever before - though not anywhere near what I have heard from other subs in less difficult rooms. However, I can easily live with this performance.

BUT - try Steely Dan Gaucho, for example, and the attack of the kick is missing or masked and there is enough of a "tympani" effect to it to be annoying. It "blooms" for lack of a better term to describe it.

My proc crosses over at 80 Hz, the sub's crossover is disabled. There is more sub energy between 90 and 120 Hz with the Hsu than any other I have tried and that might be the problem - don't know.

I do use a Behringer Feedback Destroyer and have been able to get an amazingly flat curve as shown below. And FLAT does SOUND better to me than a House Curve with Cabin Gain. It sounds very accurate on DVD, just not on music.

I do have email in to Dr. Hsu who should be returning from vacation today and will post if I find anything. I'm very interested to see what you all find, as well.

http://www.well.com/~rebop/hsu3.jpg

-=Bob=-
firepinch's Avatar firepinch 11:05 AM 06-28-2002
Rebop,

Did u try the same thing than me (set the crossover at 60 Hz to see if it sound bloated like before) ??? You passed ur breaking time? If u already passed it and you still have the same bloating in kick drum... not good news! :( If you think that my room is a difficult room, why does my Paradigm PS-1000 succeeded to push 110-115 dBs between 40 & 80 Hz? Well under 40 Hz my PS-1000 roll off rapidly but the VTF-3 sure doesnt! :eek:
rebop's Avatar rebop 11:12 AM 06-28-2002
My proc only has one crossover setting of 80Hz. I don;t want to use the subs crossover in addition to the proc and double filter.

What IS break-in time recommended for this? I would say I have 20 hours on the sub now.

And I was saying that I have a difficult room. I have no idea what your room is like.
Greg_R's Avatar Greg_R 11:22 AM 06-28-2002
firepinch - it's called "break in time".

rebop - I would be concerned with the large amount of boost on some of those filters. This amount of boost will waste a lot of amp power at those frequencies (and possibly bad sound). Did you try different room placements to get the best response before EQing? Ideally you should only have 3 peaks which you can cut using the BFD...
rebop's Avatar rebop 11:30 AM 06-28-2002
Hi Greg,

As I said, I have a difficult room. This is the best placement.

And 9dB isn't *that* drastic. I still have tons of headroom on the sub.
firepinch's Avatar firepinch 02:41 PM 06-28-2002
Sorry Greg but english isnt my natal language and I speak french everday. I dont use english pretty often...
firepinch's Avatar firepinch 07:06 PM 06-28-2002
WEEEE! :D and nooooo :(

Understand? hehe... I finally succeded to get 110 dB and a big slam of 112 dB in my room during a techno song but HELLL!!! during those times, I can hear the woofer fluttering... that fluttering really piss me off! Damn Im sure that I can get that Paradigm PS-1000 ultra sound pressure with my VTF-3 with more accurate bass... even HSU told me that I can reach over 120 dB with the VTF-3 in my room... well he said probably.

And again, in each techno/dance song, I get always that cone fluttering or "bloated bass" at about 105-106 dBs crossover set @75,80 or 90 Hz like Crankit and other people who posted recently about their VTF-3 problem (harmonicdiscord.com). The same thing happens in high kick drum songs. Whats wrong? Is this normal?

I noticed something also... the woofer flutter more when it goes back. When it goes front, it flutter less and sometimes it simply doesnt flutter at all even if the woofer goes far out of the box (long excursion). The problem I think, is more when the woofer goes back. Maybe the voice coil is damaged?

I cant wait to call dr. Hsu... I dunno what he will say about that!
BrianR's Avatar BrianR 07:38 PM 06-28-2002
I have experienced the same exact sounds you are fire.
Unless I have the crossover set below 60 and the volume less than half I hear that same rumble/distortion you are speaking of.

The VTF-3 has great sound and it really kicks you in the chest hard but no matter how I set it I can here a slight rumble. Maybe it's that we are just not use to the sound of a Hsu product? I have a couple friends coming over this weekend that are audio fanatics and we are going to experiment with it none stop all weekend long.

I will let you know what they think of it and if they can help me find a sweet spot for it. I have tried all four corners of my room and have used Avia, THX/Opti mode and a SPL meter. I must've watched 30 DVD's on this sub already and I also have 2 DTS demo disk and I have yet to hear a movie played at decent volumes (not reference but close) without flutter.
rebop's Avatar rebop 12:15 AM 06-29-2002
Had friends over tonight, one who is somewhat of an audiophile with Vandersteen 5's and a good ear. We watched Harry Potter which sounded fabulous. Very pleased.

But before that we did some demos including music. He heard the kick drum problem right away and first described it as the sub sounding slow. He thought it might be underpowered and was losing the transient on the kick.

I told him I didn't think that was the problem and played the THX ball at reference to validate that. I told him that the attack was there, but was being masked and he then agreed with that. It seems like there *might* be a doubling that is causing this "bloom" on kicks. He agreed that "bloom" is a great way to describe it.

So, I think I need to wait until Monday and talk with Dr. Hsu and see what he thinks.

It ironic that I now am pleased with my DVD performance but have this annoying music problem.
lwang's Avatar lwang 12:22 AM 06-29-2002
rebop,

That is why there is a need for variable crossover somewhere along the line so that it integrates seamlessly with the main speakers.

If you think there is a doubling up, maybe you could enable the crossover freq on the sub so that there might be less overlap. This might cause your perfectly flat freq resp to deviate though.

Does it bloom when you only play the sub and not the main speakers?

BTW, isn't bloom a good term? occomplished only by tube amps in the midrange?
rebop's Avatar rebop 12:32 AM 06-29-2002
I did try enabling the sub x-over at about 80 Hz and it killed some of the bloom. But measuring response looked absolutely horrible above 63 Hz - maybe + - 8dB. VERY ragged. And I'm sure its due to the double filtering.

I can tell you that it doesn't bloom when I turn off the sub and set mains to large. But with sub only, I find it impossible to tell if it is there or not. The attack of kick drum seems to be above the range of the sub.
lwang's Avatar lwang 12:39 AM 06-29-2002
How about hooking the sub to L & R out of the preamp instead of LFE and bypass its crossover. This might allow you to hear the sub to a higher freq range. It will probably sound very rolled off, but it should at least go a few octaves above the highest cutoff freq.

The flattening of the response via BFD migh actually be a bad thing, since you are just correcting in the freq domain. Without a adjustable high pass crossover, it is impossible for you to test different xo freq.
firepinch's Avatar firepinch 12:56 PM 06-29-2002
CRANKIT,

Please I need your advice! I just called Audiolight... they are expert in subwoofers. And the person told me that the Sunfire is simply a monster and it call kill all subwoofer in its price range!

Tell me. You have heard a Sunfire and you owned one before. Can the Sunfire kill the Hsu VTF-3 in output? Is the sunfire the most powerfull sub you have ever heard? Does the Sunfire have stronger output than a Velodyne HGS?

Im raged and I have every kind of emotions now!! :confused: :confused: :confused: Please tell me rapidly lol!
BrianR's Avatar BrianR 03:36 PM 06-29-2002
It depends on what Sunfire you are talking about.
The Sunfire True signature is an absolutely killer sub as is the MarkIV and IMO it will definitely out perform the VTF-3 but the MarkIV average price is $1,299-1,499 and the True subs average pricing is $1,799-1,999.

You can buy 2 VTF-3's for that price, which most likely will out perform a single Mark or True Signature. I have audtioned a HGS-18 and a Sunfire True in my home a few months ago when I still didn't have my speakers picked out yet and they both blew me away but I liked the HGS a good deal more than the Sunfire. I decided to put most of my money into my speaker setup and it only left me with 1,400 to 1,800 dollars for subs. I can buy a HGS or True signature within this price range but I want dual subs when I find one I like.

IMO a dual SVS or HGS sub setup will out perform almost any single sub under $3,000. Hell if you wanna get crazy and buy a killer sub for music, buy a Rel Stadium.
firepinch's Avatar firepinch 04:01 PM 06-29-2002
I went to a Paradigm dealer today and we compared the Servo-15 against the VTF-3. The VTF-3 is more agressive in low bass but the Servo-15 is still almost as powerfull as the VTF-3. The PW-2200 wasnt in demo but the dealer said that it should have the same output than my VTF-3. Damn... at 800 CAN$ here, the PW-2200 seem for sure a better value! But the dealer said that the VTF-3 still have incredible output down low and the VTF-3 surpass in his humble opinion the PW-2200. Well in overall, he said that the PW-2200 is pretty the same than the HSU VTF-3 in output! OH MY GOD! I CANT... I CANT BELEIVE THAT !!! :eek: :eek: :eek: (Notice here that it was MY Vtf-3... maybe I have a defective unit).

So do you agree?

Moreover, he detected the same thing than me... that bloating during kick drum. And u know what? He saw something I didnt saw before: the woofer goes back instead of going front during a kick drum or a "boom". He thinks that the woofer is not properly phased... well maybe this is really the problem... and even if we switch between 0 or 180 degrees, the situation still doesnt change.

Im gonna talk more certainly about this to dr. Hsu Monday. I cant wait... im bass hungry dammit! I want more but without sacrifising the quality!

But to terminate, PEOPLE TELL ME HOW A VTF-3 CAN COMPARE!!! VTF-3 = to two servo-15? VTF-3 = one Sunfire junior? Tell me... I really dont have an idea of how much output I should gain in my 1470 cubic ft room!
BrianR's Avatar BrianR 07:23 PM 06-29-2002
VTF-3 = 2 Servo 15's?
Paradigm Servo's?

Not on your life!
I own Servo 15's and a single servo is every bit as good if not better than a VTF-3. Then again we come back to price. The Servo is almost double the price of a VTF-3 and 2 VTF-3's would definitely out perform a single Servo 15.
But I guess price isn't really that much of a difference if you don't mind buying used. On Ebay, Audiogon and other online auction sites, I have seen some Servo 15's sell as low as $850 +shipping.
If giving the choice Servo 15 or VTF-3?

In all honesty, I would choose the Servo 15.
When I had one in my basement HT, before the construction was even done, it shook the walls like a hurricane. The room is a lot more sound proof now then it was then. I haven't had it in me to carry that monster back done stairs to do a side by side comparison but I play my Servo's regularly in my Family room and it shakes my *entire* house (basement,1st & 2nd level). You can feel them in my garage when you get out of your car if they are on and my garage is detached from my home. This is with the windows closed on my house too.

I think I might take the VTF-3 upstairs tomorrow and give it a run in my family room. Thx for the idea firepinch.
firepinch's Avatar firepinch 07:30 PM 06-29-2002
Oh damn what the hell?

So one VTF-3 is like a Servo-15 in output and the SVS PCi i said to be 3x more powerfull than a servo-15 down low? How can I beleive that?

BTW, u didnt tell me about the Sunfire (the model you have)
Mal P's Avatar Mal P 10:01 PM 06-29-2002
firepinch - The Vtf-2 has more output than the PSW-2200, according to Tom Nouisane. I find it hard to believe the 2200 would do better than the Vtf-3. I'm not sure about the Servo 15 though.

Cheers,
Mal
bob23_60201's Avatar bob23_60201 11:59 PM 06-29-2002
The Hsu TN series has always matched up extremely well with the Servo 15. The TN1220HO/250 watt amp matches up very well with the Servo 15 from 20Hz and above, and the TN1225HO/250 watt amp matches up very well with the Servo 15 from 25Hz and above. This is from objective reviews. The subjective reviews are generally great. The VTF-3 in max output mode apparently has a bit more output above 30Hz than the TN series, and it also extends lower than the TN1225HO.
bob23_60201's Avatar bob23_60201 02:38 AM 06-30-2002
For music, you guys should try the Hsu subs crossed over at 43 or 51 Hz at 24 dB/Oct. Apparently this has worked very well for many customers in the past.
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