Novice needing help with counter argument with old man! - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 06-20-2012, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Rerona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So I've found a decent deal of Polk Audio Monitor 30 Series II and a SMSL Amp-03 T-Amp shipped to Hawaii for only 125, which I was about to just order, but my Uncle has been telling me to not get it as it is not worth it. I myself have read through the forums and also believe it is more worthwhile to invest into better speakers and building at HT system from scratch would be better. I originally was going to get those 2 and the BIC F12, but his argument is that the gap in bass response is to large and don't make a good match up. He believes getting a match between front and subwoofer is a better idea and has been recommending 100~200 HT systems on craiglist such as this:
http://honolulu.craigslist.org/oah/ele/3088309911.html

So far his argument involves: Monitor 30 has not enough bass, need a subwoofer. But with subwoofer not good pairing with BIC F12 that I was planning to get. He recommends getting a HT system as it already has bass with it. Bass is more then enough in a small room with any subwoofer found in a HT set.

So any idea with help on convincing him? Also he is native korean so leaving it in simple terms would really help. I'm still a novice, and I want to try explain to him but I still can't word it well.
Rerona is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 05:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sdiver2489's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 31
I don't get it...those Sony HTiB's have tiny speakers and smaller subwoofers. So they typically crossover at around 120Hz and the bass cuts out at 40Hz.

I'm not following the logic that somehow the Sony HTiB removes the concern about the FL FR having too little frequency response into the bass region.

Tell him to come on here and explain his argument.
Sdiver2489 is offline  
post #3 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 05:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Elihawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iowa City, Iowa
Posts: 2,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 147
I saw a you-tube demo once and those tall Sony towers have a single 2 inch driver and no tweeter...no way those are better than the Polk M30s for bass, sound quality, or anything!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
Elihawk is offline  
post #4 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Rerona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
His argument is that, for the price of a 2.0 setup or even 2.1, I could get a full HT system and still save money compared to the ones I was looking at. With a 2.0 System I'd have no bass compared to a HT system. With a 2.1 system, he says the subwoofer needs to pair "well" with the speakers. With a HT all in one set, it has matching speakers and bass already there. Also his argument is that any subwoofer is good enough if the room is small. Lastly his argument is that a HT system whether high cost or low cost, there average SQ are alot closer to one another then say headphones SQ of high end and low end which has a huge gap. I beg to differ but this is his opinion. Also his argument is that larger subwoofer is not better, even a small subwoofer is really good as it all depends on impedence (i think that's what he said anyways). Some of this I'm kind of filling in the gaps because he is trying to explain with 2nd second english, he's native korean. He doesn't rate speakers by individual ones, he rates the system as a whole. And also his opinion is that Bose is #1 from his 20 years ago experience.
Rerona is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 06:17 AM
Member
 
C0rk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 46
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
He's making some generally good points with some screwy specifics, so it may be that you're not following his points, or it may be his knowledge is dated and hasn't carried forward to today's products. His Bose opinion leads me to believe the latter.

Subs do not have to be matched to mains. The frequencies a sub provides do not affect the harmonics of the mains, so a sub from any manufacturer will be compatible. However, his pointing out a possible gap in frequency coverage makes sense; but again, in your case I don't believe that to be true, Monitor 30s look like that have reasonable flot response down to 63hz, the Bic covers 25-200Hz, so there's the overlap. Unlike mains, subwoofer impedance means nothing to the consumer, as it has it's own power supply and doesn't have to be matched to a suitable amp. I'm guessing he meant that the impenance of the driver would affect how loudly it plays, but that's not the primary quality measure. A larger drive can move air more efficiently, so all else being equal it'll be better. Of course there are other design considerations, so just going big doesn;t work either, but Bic has a good name. Now if you're placing it in a small space, you may not need the speaker size and can use the money to purchase better design, or parts elsewhere. (Meaning if you don't need 12" of air pushing capability, you can move up a brand and get a smaller Hsu or SVS, or some equivalent manufacturer. Botttom line, I think you're on the right track.

Going back to your uncle, his thought on rating a system as a whole is valid, but I don't think he's using the correct criteria to make that assessment.
C0rk is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 06:32 AM
Member
 
guns&motorcycles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The nice thing about your approach is that the 30's make good rear speakers if you eventually want to add 40's, 60's, or 70's up front. I think you are making a wise choice.
guns&motorcycles is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Rerona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a hard time explaining to him my reasoning for quality speakers, especially since some of the help I got on this forum earlier has been mixed and confusing. One such help was saying:

"Good-quality subwoofers START at around $500, so forget a subwoofer that will give you "floor-shaking oomph"; just try to get some speakers that have some decent bass. Any subwoofer with a driver smaller than 12 inches or less than 250 watts of RMS amplifier power is a thump-box, not a REAL subwoofer; crappy sound quality."

This has gotten me really confused. Later today I plan to go to local shops to try and listen to some cheap HT systems, though honestly last time I tried that I was rather disappointed because large stores make the bass from subwoofers really hard to determine. I already ordered the Polk Monitor 30 and T-amp for $122 (I hope I like them), with an agreement that if I find something better a friend of mine will probably take em off my hands for the same price. I am hoping the difference between a $100~$200 HT system and the polk monitor 30 are as plain as daylight.

For subwoofers, he actually stated to me that matching fronts with a subwoofer is more important in a HT system then a center speaker. I'm not quite sure but he would always try to point out the frequency range. Also one of the biggest gripes he has with the 2.1 setup I plan to do I think has to do with the watts on the speakers to the amp, and the impedence or something with the speaker to subwoofer. Either that or he is just saying all subwoofer are the same in a small room and spending a 180 on a bic f12 is no better then buying a entire HT system for half that price.
Rerona is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 06:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
commsysman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 244
The Monitor 40 would be a much better choice than the 30 if you are not going to have a subwoofer.

The 30 is going to have inadequate bass with or without a subwoofer, since they only go down to about 55-60 HZ. They are really not intended as front speakers. Front speakers should go a bit lower, even IF a subwoofer is going to be used. A subwoofer really should only be used below 50 Hz.

The Moniitor 40, however has very good bass, down to nearly 40Hz. The dual drivers will deliver much better overall sound and much better bass. The price of $150 or so is a good deal for what you get.

I would suggest that you consider the Denon 1312 or 1612 receiver rather than the t-amp; it will give you better sound and a lot more connectivity. The price is not all that much more, and you get a lot more.
commsysman is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Rerona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The Monitor 40 would be an excellent choice if you are not going to have a subwoofer.
The 30 is going to have inadequate bass with or without a subwoofer, since they only go down to about 55-60 HZ. They are really not intended as front speakers. Front speakers should go a bit lower, even IF a subwoofer is going to be used. A subwoofer really should only be used below 50 Hz.
The Moniitor 40, however has very good bass, down to nearly 40Hz. The dual drivers will deliver much better overall sound and much better bass.
I would suggest that you consider the Denon 1312 or 1612 receiver rather than the t-amp; it will give you better sound and a lot more connectivity. The price is not all that much more, and you get a lot more.

I actually wanted the monitor 40s/pioneer bs41/audio engine ap4, but the shipping cost to hawaii is quite rediculous, $50+, floorstand speakers were $100+. I got lucky on head-fi forums and found the Monitor 30s and t-amp for a decent price, so figured it'd be a nice base which i could move to the rear later. Also I do want the 1612, but the lowest i see it was 188 on amazon, still a tad out of my budget (probably why he was recommending a HT system). I was hoping this 2.0 setup (maybe 2.1 if i see a good deal not sure if the bic f12 or bic V-1220 is worth it anymore with his reasoning) would last me til thanksgiving/xmas deals where i could upgrade to a 5.1. As for a DAC, my home PC has a xonar essence stx, so I think that would suffice for now. I have considered the 1312, but a helpful person who is well versed in denon receivers has highly recommended me the lowest model i should go with is the 1612 as quote "the 1312 doesn't include an Auto EQ program nor does it include Setup wizard to make installation easier for you. The 1612 also has a front USB jack to make connecting an iPhone or MP3 device much easier on the fly."
Rerona is offline  
post #10 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 07:07 AM
Senior Member
 
mystik610's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 245
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rerona View Post

For subwoofers, he actually stated to me that matching fronts with a subwoofer is more important in a HT system then a center speaker. I'm not quite sure but he would always try to point out the frequency range. Also one of the biggest gripes he has with the 2.1 setup I plan to do I think has to do with the watts on the speakers to the amp, and the impedence or something with the speaker to subwoofer. Either that or he is just saying all subwoofer are the same in a small room and spending a 180 on a bic f12 is no better then buying a entire HT system for half that price.

No offense to your uncle, but that makes absolutely no sense. I could understand his argument if there was a gap in the frequency response between the mains and the subwoofer (ie the mains don't go low enough, and the sub doesn't play high enough), but that is never the case with any half-way decent set of bookshelves and subwoofer. If he wants to frequency response....the BIC F12 will play up to 200hz...the monitor 30's start to roll off at 63hz. Ironically, the Bose lifestyle systems, which are 'matched systems' have a gap between the lower frequencies of the cubes and the upper frequencies of the bass module.

Also, the impedence of the subwoofer and speakers have nothing to do with one-another, as the subwoofer is driven off its own amplifier.
mystik610 is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Rerona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So been looking at some local stores at cheap HT systems. Unfortunately all of them so far were not hooked up, had really bad quality speakers, or really horrible reviews online. Including some Sony blu-ray HT systems and Samsung, a lot of them were more expensive in store than online despite clearance/open box sale status. The Sony's were especially cheap looking with lots of bad reviews. Also one HDMI output is pretty bad as I'd want at least two, and read some of them only accept certain iPod models and have huge restrictions on YouTube. I really can't understand as to how he has a philosophy that quantity beats quality. Is there even decent home theater systems for 200 or less? I'd be happy as long as it had a good receiver I could use and replace the speakers I guess.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Rerona is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 03:29 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,244
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The Monitor 40 would be a much better choice than the 30 if you are not going to have a subwoofer.
The 30 is going to have inadequate bass with or without a subwoofer, since they only go down to about 55-60 HZ. They are really not intended as front speakers. Front speakers should go a bit lower, even IF a subwoofer is going to be used. A subwoofer really should only be used below 50 Hz.
Care to explain why that is? Why should a sub only be used below 50 Hz? Why would THX use an 80 Hz crossover if the sub should only be used below 50 Hz? Why would all THX certified speakers be designed for use with an 80 Hz crossover? Why would companies like Triad, Snell Acoustics, Salk, Outlaw, Jamo and many others make speakers designated as "LCR" speakers, and designed to be used with subwoofers and 80 Hz crossovers? Most of these speakers have -3 dB points in the 50 to 60 Hz range, yet they work quite well with subwoofers and 80 Hz crossovers. In fact they're designed from the ground up for this very application.
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The Moniitor 40, however has very good bass, down to nearly 40Hz. The dual drivers will deliver much better overall sound and much better bass. The price of $150 or so is a good deal for what you get.
In most cases, I would cross the Polk Monitor 40 at 80 Hz. It will perform *better* with an 80 Hz crossover than with a lower crossover. It's simply a matter of proper integration.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
post #13 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 03:30 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rerona View Post

I really can't understand as to how he has a philosophy that quantity beats quality. Is there even decent home theater systems for 200 or less? I'd be happy as long as it had a good receiver I could use and replace the speakers I guess.
No, no real decent $200 HTIB.
Also, did you change your budget from $300 to $200 max?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416048/budget-2-1-with-limited-resources#post_22139160

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is online now  
post #14 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 03:51 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,343
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rerona View Post

I have a hard time explaining to him my reasoning for quality speakers, especially since some of the help I got on this forum earlier has been mixed and confusing. One such help was saying:
"Good-quality subwoofers START at around $500, so forget a subwoofer that will give you "floor-shaking oomph"; just try to get some speakers that have some decent bass. Any subwoofer with a driver smaller than 12 inches or less than 250 watts of RMS amplifier power is a thump-box, not a REAL subwoofer; crappy sound quality."

You get all kinds on an Internet forum. That same guy was telling people less than 6 months ago to buy Sony subs with your kind of budget (lol), and he also gives very poor advice on subwoofer integration. If you want someone to listen to that knows a hell of a lot about subs, listen to craig john. And if you really want to know about subs, you should be posting in the AVS subwoofer forum, not here.

cel4145 is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Rerona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

No, no real decent $200 HTIB.
Also, did you change your budget from $300 to $200 max?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416048/budget-2-1-with-limited-resources#post_22139160

No I haven't, it's just that I already purchased the Polk 30 monitors and the Tripath amp which was 122 dollars, so it leaves 200 dollars really.

Thanks again to everyone who is leaving input, it's really much appreciated considering this is a pretty big jump in spending then what I am used to for this category at least (my computer/headphone setup don't count! lol). Are the Polk 30s with the amp I got a good basis at least as a 2.0 setup until I can fund front speaker/center/subwoofer? And also which should be prioritized more? Subwoofer or the Denon 1612? (though I am considering the pioneer vsx 521k) Speaking of receiver, is there um... Preference/matching of receivers with speakers at all? I know in general it's good to have sound signature the same with speakers, would there be some type of compatibility with sound with receivers too?

Also would the Monitor 30 pretty much be the foundation that will determine what speakers I can get from now on? for example would it be bad to grab say like Pioneer/Cambridge or whatever other brands are out there if I were to see a good deal?

I have ended my outside hunt for today, found absolutely nothing of good quality, even on the more expensive end. The best I saw was a Pioneer SW-8 in costco for 100 dollars.
Rerona is offline  
post #16 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 04:46 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 391
You do not need to brand match receivers to speakers - and you do not need to brand
match sub to speakers.The key is to brand/series match the center to the front speakers.

You will need to decide what to do next - I would look at the receiver and sub next.
The Polk can be a foundation for you, if you really like the Polk sound. And, If you
find that the Polk is not your cup of tea, then take a serious look at Cambridge, the
S30 is really nice and real good for music and HT. You can still use the Polk Monitor
for surrounds. Enjoy the journey!

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is online now  
post #17 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Rerona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
How does speaker calibration work? Are they only available on the Denon models? I've been looking at the receiver lineups for both 2011/2012 and I only can find them available on Denon models.
Rerona is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 07:15 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,343
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 660
Once you get above the very base budget models--Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Pioneer--they all have speaker calibration. The receiver comes with a mic that you place in the listening position, and it plays test tones to determine what to set channel levels, etc.

cel4145 is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 07:17 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Once you get above the very base budget models--Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Pioneer--they all have speaker calibration. The receiver comes with a mic that you place in the listening position, and it plays test tones to determine what to set channel levels, etc.

Also, Sherwood

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
zieglj01 is online now  
post #20 of 20 Old 06-21-2012, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Rerona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So this years Pioneer VSX-522-K and last years Pioneer VSX-521-K would not have it, but moving 1 model up, Pioneer VSX-822-K and Pioneer VSX-821-K have it? Does that mean the VSX-821 for $146.51 off of amazon is a better buy then the Denon AVR-1612 for $182? As they both have the speaker calibration? Trying to find a receiver for under 200 that would go well with these speakers (not sure if wattage output/impedence will matter so much with my choice).

Currently my uncle thinks I still made a bad decision getting the Polk Monitor 30s for that price, still hoping that I'd be able to show the difference with them and the computer speakers he has. Should it be fine running from my laptop => t amp => speakers? I am currently visiting relatives so I don't have my actual setup at home with my essence stx. Right now I'm doing laptop => mixamp => athm50 headphones. I'd like to order a receiver soon though, just still having a hard time deciding which. I was thinking of getting a cheap HT system, keeping the blu-ray receiver and selling the speakers later, but after hearing so many bad reviews I changed my mind on that lol. I suppose I have my PS3 for that.
Rerona is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off