When people say it is a "musical" speaker, what's that? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I hear some speakers described as "musical" while others as "hi-fi." What's that?
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post #2 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

I hear some speakers described as "musical" while others as "hi-fi." What's that?
It's nonsense.
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post #3 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 07:53 AM
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^What Bill Said, basically.

When people say a speaker is "musical" what I usually assume they are saying is the speakers reproduce sounds accurately with little to no audible coloration.
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post #4 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's nonsense.
Came to post this.

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post #5 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's nonsense.


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post #6 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 09:21 AM
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This tends to take me back, to the thread which spoke about dancing notes.smile.gif

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post #7 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

I hear some speakers described as "musical" while others as "hi-fi." What's that?

I don't know what people mean by "musical"--it seems like some sort of euphemism, to tell you the truth.
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

^What Bill Said, basically.

In real, physical, objective terms, I'd agree. On the other hand, if we consider the human factor, then I suppose it means something to whomever is saying it.
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

When people say a speaker is "musical" what I usually assume they are saying is the speakers reproduce sounds accurately with little to no audible coloration.

Maybe some people mean this, but I've seen the term more often used in opposition to neutral, uncolored, accurate reproduction of sound (which is why I referred to it as a euphemism above). For instance, I recall reading one review that compared two different speakers, saying that while one speaker more accurately reproduced the recording, the other was better at portraying the music. This doesn't make sense to me--in my view, it is the recording that should strive to be accurate to the source (along with the whole recording system), while the speakers (and the whole playback system) should in turn strive to be accurate to the recording. I mean, how could a speaker "know" what the music is supposed to sound like, despite the flaws in the recording process? All it has to work with is the recording, and not all recordings are flawed in the same ways. Yet that's what some people are implying.

If we don't get overly philosophical about this, I guess that for some people being "musical" simply means that a speaker makes music sound good to them subjectively. And perhaps still other people have their own definitions for or reasons for using this nebulous term.

Eh, to heck with it--Bill is right (as usual), it's nonsense. smile.gif
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post #8 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Cook View Post

Maybe some people mean this, but I've seen the term more often used in opposition to neutral, uncolored, accurate reproduction of sound

I'm asking this because I have seen the same thing often. To me it seems people are saying a musical speaker is good at portraying the music in a non-analytical manner - as opposed to a hifi speaker which dissects the music into separate elements. Lately I have been looking into Harbeth vs Sonus Faber where people describe Harbeth as musical and newer SF as "hifi sounding."
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post #9 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 09:59 AM
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I would assume "Musical" applied to speakers would mean work well for listening to music as apposed to say being used as a center or surround in a HT system. One could have the opinion that all speakers should be accurate across the entire range and therefore can be utilized in any position. The problem is the all speakers simply cannot do that and so they concentrate on certain areas. A center can focus on the vocal range. A surround can focus on reproducing ambiant sounds and so on.
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post #10 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 10:02 AM
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There are speakers which are designed for movies. They emphasize vocals and big booms.

There are speakers designed to be highly technically accurate with low IMD, low THD, little resonance, and flat response.

There are speakers designed to be efficient (loud without a lot of juice)

There are speakers designed to do none of the above (AKA Bose) biggrin.gif

Then there are musical speakers. Musical speakers are easy to listen to over a long period without listner fatigue. They often add a slight bit of coloration or warmth in the mid frequency bands 1KHz+ where our ears are most sensitive. They sound warmer or mellower without harshness or excess thump (Bass)

You might want a musical speaker if you emphasize vocals, jazz, classical, or the like. Musical speakers will also work for rock and metal, but not nearly as well (Horn speakers do better for these types of music as their presentation is more forward or in your face) Rock and metal music tend to emphasis bass and treble regions which is the opposite of warm musical speakers. The emphasized bass and treble create more "energy" from the music which is typically used in today's mass produced music.

No one speaker design fits everyone. Choose based on your needs, room and budget. Not someone else's opionion.

Speaker design is rather an art. There is no such thing as the perfect painting. Likewise there is no such thing as a perfect speaker. It's part science and part personal preference.
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post #11 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 10:21 AM
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"Musical" and HiFi means the sound is crystal clear with great detail, resolution, lifelike accuracy, instead of muddy midrange and lifeless boring dead compressed sound. biggrin.gif
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post #12 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 10:43 AM
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When you turn up a musical speaker it becomes compressed sound. I am just messing around.

Seriously, saying a musical speaker is warm for jazz, classical, etc... but a speaker that reproduces metal and rap are not musical is what Bill calls nonsense. Why, because all the above is music, and music is in movies too! Heck, some of the better recordings are during the credits of a movie. A musical speaker is what one thinks plays their type of music better, it is subjective. I know people who think their awesome musical speaker fills the room with sound and they think it makes everything sound great. I told him I agree, because all of it was high distortion for every song because he was listening to his awesome speakers about 5 dBs too loud. The speaker was literally compressing and distorting and he truly believed the music sound better like this. I turned down the music 5 dBs(from 110 dBs at the speaker to 105 dBs) and now you can clearly hear the vocals and instruments separated and he said it does not sound as good because there was no more energy from them. This guy literally likes the energy caused by distortion! Great! Who am I to tell him he is wrong, he likes what he likes. It is subjective. He still thinks his speakers are accurate which is wrong but whatever, doesn't really matter, he is happy and so am I.
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post #13 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 11:13 AM
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Ambiguous adjectives applied to audio attempt to fill a gap. (Eat my alliteration.) As time passes and consumers become enlightened and knowledgeable, these adjectives become less and less applicable. They are intentionally nebulous and serve as little more than pulp for reviews. The point, as Bill F so eloquently put it, is that "musicality" as a descriptive is a ********, worthless term.

Sean Olive has provided a significant brain dump to the public domain and addressed the audiophile vocabulary issue to a small extent.
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post #14 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 11:28 AM
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It makes good copy for product reviews...

OK maybe that was not the best answer but I won't dismiss "musical" as total rubbish.

Many speakers have focused their design based on the owners or engineers listening preference. Example being speakers with low bass output are no good to listen to rock music on as some would state due to the bass content in rock music.

If you like jazz then an electrostatic based speaker may appeal to you since the frequency content and listening volume of most jazz music fits well with this design. Again these are possible scenarios.

What I have trouble with is terms like, warm, cool, tight, fast, slow, bloom etc.

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post #15 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 11:35 AM
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They are faster.


I have no clue what fast means lool

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post #16 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

I won't dismiss "musical" as total rubbish.
I will. It's a term that doesn't mean anything unless there's an alternative. What would that be? "Perfect for Morse Code?" eek.gif
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post #17 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's nonsense.

The thread closed immediately. Damn!
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post #18 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 12:56 PM
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I always thought "musical" was an euphemism for lively. Some people always talk about how one speaker sounded somewhat lifeless or dry on certain material, while another speaker had a more rhythmic drive that seemed to energize their room and made them feel a more emotional attachment to the music they were listening to. Of course they could have just had the amp cranked up on one speaker and down on the other. What the hell do I know?
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post #19 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts View Post

I always thought "musical" was an euphemism for lively. Some people always talk about how one speaker sounded somewhat lifeless or dry on certain material, while another speaker had a more rhythmic drive that seemed to energize their room and made them feel a more emotional attachment to the music they were listening to. Of course they could have just had the amp cranked up on one speaker and down on the other. What the hell do I know?

This goes circular in a minute. Every term you used has the same intentionally ambiguous definition.

Define in the context of objective or subjective experience of a loudspeaker: Musical, Lively, Lifeless, Dry, Rhythmic, Energy

It's malarkey.
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post #20 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

This goes circular in a minute. Every term you used has the same intentionally ambiguous definition.
Define in the context of objective or subjective experience of a loudspeaker: Musical, Lively, Lifeless, Dry, Rhythmic, Energy
It's malarkey.

I think that you are right. My post was poorly written. I actually agree with you that these words are very ambiguous. My point is that many people do use these words, often tossed around in a review. I think most of the time the person/reviewer is simply trying to describe their own emotions to a piece of music played through a particular pair of speakers. I have heard many reviewers describe a speaker as sounding lifeless or dry. While in another review that same person uses words like "possessing a rhythmic drive and energy" to the music. I have no way of knowing what exactly the reviewer is feeling or hearing. It could be that a person uses a different amp in both quality and power and gets a different result.

Again just to be clear I think it's almost impossible to know what the term "musical" means, because to one person it may mean that they have an emotional connection to the speakers, a connection that they don't have with other speakers. After all I think for most people that buy speakers there has to be an emotional connection at some point in the audition process. What can make one speaker sound so perfect to one person, yet ho-hum to another will always remain a mystery.

I think a lot of times when people use words like lifeless or dry, it could mean that they feel the sound just doesn't register with them. They could say it sounds like crap. But then again what does the word "crap" mean. Like I said I haven't the foggiest idea what the hell a lot of these reviewers mean when they throw some of these words around.
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post #21 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

I'm asking this because I have seen the same thing often. To me it seems people are saying a musical speaker is good at portraying the music in a non-analytical manner - as opposed to a hifi speaker which dissects the music into separate elements. Lately I have been looking into Harbeth vs Sonus Faber where people describe Harbeth as musical and newer SF as "hifi sounding."

As I'm sure your probably aware, the whole system interacts with the components in the chain and the listening environment. Get the speakers that fit your decor and doesn't cause too much problems with the lady of the house, and enjoy your entertainment.
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post #22 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 03:43 PM
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While context is critical, I think the real key to understanding much of the descriptive prose is reading the reviews AND listening to the reviewed speaker. I've done this for decades and so this terminology doesn't bother me. At worst it simply comes down to my disagreeing with the reviewer.
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post #23 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 04:34 PM
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I want my speakers to be as musical as Owl Jolson.

I'm sorry to disagree Bill, but Owl Jolson is NOT NONSENSE!

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post #24 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts View Post

I always thought "musical" was an euphemism for lively. Some people always talk about how one speaker sounded somewhat lifeless or dry on certain material

I've found that it's usually studio monitors that are called things like "lifeless" and "sterile"--therefore "lively" probably means that a speaker has some sort of coloration or distortion that happens to sound pleasing to some people on some material. Personally, I prefer the studio monitor sound--they don't make music sound lifeless unless the music or the recording sounds lifeless (whatever that means wink.gif).
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post #25 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 06:47 PM
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Probably refers to the drIvers ability to transition back and forth between various musical instruments quickly and without any coloration or lag.
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post #26 of 82 Old 06-28-2012, 06:48 PM
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When I say a speaker is musical, I mean something very simple. I don't hear a speaker, I hear an instrument or a voice or a concert. The speaker essentially should disappear and what it is trying to reproduce should be all that you hear wink.gif
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post #27 of 82 Old 06-29-2012, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_M View Post

As I'm sure your probably aware, the whole system interacts with the components in the chain and the listening environment. Get the speakers that fit your decor and doesn't cause too much problems with the lady of the house, and enjoy your entertainment.
OT, but this makes it sound like speakers don't matter because they will sound vastly different when swapping out sometime in the chain. This is typical opinion in audiophile forums other than AVS. Is that what you meant?

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post #28 of 82 Old 06-29-2012, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

When I say a speaker is musical, I mean something very simple. I don't hear a speaker, I hear an instrument or a voice or a concert. The speaker essentially should disappear and what it is trying to reproduce should be all that you hear wink.gif

Wow, that's great. I'm adopting that. Musical means to sound like music, not like a speaker. Cool.
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post #29 of 82 Old 06-29-2012, 07:06 AM
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From a design standpoint, there are pretty stark differences between a speaker that was designed to be a musical speaker, and one that is designed to be a home theater speaker. I don't think I've ever heard a speaker that excelled at both. The Paradigm Studio's that I own are probably the best compromise between both, but there are a number of much better musical and home theater speakers out there.

Musical speakers tend to be inefficient designs, and utilize components that favor accuracy and detail over dynamic range (ie ribbon tweeters, electrostatics, ring radiators). This leads to a more natural, laid-back, and 'flatter' presentation that allows you to differentiate components of the soundstage at once (ie separation of instruments), without favoring certain bands of freqeucnies like "home theater" speakers tend to do. I've found that most musical speakers make terrible home theater speakers, as they lack the energy, dynamics, and raw SPL needed to do a home theater soundtrack justice. The best musically oriented speakers I've heard are terribly inefficient, and have 4 ohm loads that require a separate amp (not that this alone defines a musical speakers).

Home theater oriented speakers are all about efficiency and SPL. Many utilize horn loaded tweeters or metal tweeters, and compression drivers, and have a very dynamic, somewhat artifical, presentation and a huge holographic soundstage. They tend to have a 'brighter' presentation that favors the upper frequencies...this brings the effects you hear in home theater soundtracks to life (particularly spacial effects), at the expense of overshadowing the detail in the mid-range and being fatiguing (to my ears) for long periods of musical listening.
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post #30 of 82 Old 06-29-2012, 07:28 AM
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Usually when you introduce a speaker to a room, the response is no longer flat, that is assuming that it was flat to begin with. Now take a speaker like the Seaton Sound Catalysis that has DSP and can be fine tuned to provide a perfectly flat response in a decent room. Now the speaker that has the dynamics also has the flatter response compared to most of the passive speakers that many consider musical. I still view it as a set of good speakers is a set of good speakers as long as the speakers are used within their limits. It is just that a lot of the speakers that many consider musical reach their limits too early for HT use. Many do not even realize that the speakers are limiting them, because the peaks are soft clipping. Hard to miss something that is not there. If you get to hear that same familiar sound track on a system that does not clip the peaks, you will know what you have been missing. Of course all of this is based on the required SPL level. Low enough levels and there is no soft clipping of peaks.

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