Comparison, Unbiased Review & Ranking of 12 High-End Home Cinema Audio Systems - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Andy acquitted himself quite well and he was very gracious in defeat. One had to feel sorry for him. He played his heart out... and was beaten by the greatest tennis player to ever play the game, IMO. I think Andy felt the weight of his country was on him, and that is a huge cross to bear. I hope he doesn't feel he let them down.
In 100% agreement with you, Craig. I certainly hope he continues to improve.

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post #182 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

Pfahaaha! Oh yes, how silly of me... only the subwoofer was playing when I measured the SPL and I didn't notice. Are you guys serious? rolleyes.gif
You do realise that is the vest majority of cases the audio systems that I auditioned had been installed, setup and calibrated by the UK distributor, which included the guy who carries out the CEDIA training? And when they demonstrated the respective audio systems to me they informed me the volume setting was set to Reference Level; I simply confirmed that it was indeed so via use of an SPL Meter. So you've basically just insulted all the major UK Distributors for all these brands of A/V equipment with your ludicrous insinuations that the systems weren't set up or calibrated properly or that they don't know how to set the volume to Reference Level. That's hilarious! tongue.gif
Come on, you guys are a bit more intelligent than this surely? smile.gif

You are the one who stated that the system was playing at 115 dB, the level of the sub at reference. How do we know the other speakers reached 105 dB at your seat? Maybe the sub was running hot to compensate?

Look, it's hard to us to believe that the small speakers are pulling off Reference (without compression at that) when even the manufacturer specs don't support that.

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post #183 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 12:20 PM
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Interesting thread. Sales people are sales people, though, nature of what they do so Nigel's over the top claim on his latest purchase or his own experience isn't unusual. Seems both Sceptre Property and Audio Visual are recently incorporated (per a UK business info website) so claims of 100 years family experience in the former and 20 years in the latter are possibly more sales drivel.

I'd like to hear the SL stuff someday, but won't be going out of my way to do so as not in my budget in any case.

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post #184 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

He has none, but he's the only poster here who seems unaware of that. There's a name for what he suffers from, and it's explained here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

^^

Best information to come out of this thread. LOL

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post #185 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

You are the one who stated that the system was playing at 115 dB, the level of the sub at reference. How do we know the other speakers reached 105 dB at your seat? Maybe the sub was running hot to compensate?
Look, it's hard to us to believe that the small speakers are pulling off Reference (without compression at that) when even the manufacturer specs don't support that.

There is no question in my mind that the S-Series SL audio system quite happlily outputs audio at Reference Levels, with 115 dB for the LFE channel and 105 dB for the other channels. I have not accurately measured the extent of what (if any) distortion or compression occurs when it does; and I would be most interested to discover the answer to this. So I would thank those individuals who have raised this intelligent point.

The fact of the matter is I am not a Sound Engineer, and I do not work for Steinway, so at the present time I simply do not know for sure the precise mechanism via which the S-Series SL audio system achieves Reference Levels (and above) whilst, in my opinion, maintaining such high audio quality.

I think the answer most likely has something to do with the fact that the SL audio systems operate differently from conventional-type home cinema audio systems; and this is with regards to more than just maintaining the full audio resolution throughout the electronics. It is my understanding that in all SL audio systems, the SL Boundary Woofers play significantly more audio than the usual Subwoofer(s); so it is possible that this is how it is achieved. Perhaps a SL S-15 plus LS Boundary Woofer is akin to a B&W 800 speaker, wherein I am sure you won't argue that a B&W 800 speaker isn't capable of outputting audio at 105dB wink.gif

I agree that this warrants further investigation and I will be finding more out about how the system does what it does when I have it installed in the cinema I am currently building. I will endeavour to let you know as soon as I do! smile.gif
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post #186 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 01:20 PM
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Here's an S-L system I'd like to hear:

700

Although at $150K a pair, I stick with my "honkers." biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif It's more expensive than a Steinway piano. eek.gif

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #187 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

There is no question in my mind that the S-Series SL audio system quite happlily outputs audio at Reference Levels, with 115 dB for the LFE channel and 105 dB for the other channels. I have not accurately measured the extent of what (if any) distortion or compression occurs when it does; and I would be most interested to discover the answer to this. )

Most "Audio Enthusiasts" here know this. A self proclaimed "Audio Professional" certainly should. smile.gif
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So I would thank those individuals who have raised this intelligent point.

Now you are getting the spirit of audio boards.
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Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

The fact of the matter is I am not a Sound Engineer, and I do not work for Steinway, so at the present time I simply do not know for sure the precise mechanism via which the S-Series SL audio system achieves Reference Levels (and above) whilst, in my opinion, maintaining such high audio quality.

As you have been told over and over... it does not hit reference level at the listening position.
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I think the answer most likely has something to do with the fact that the SL audio systems operate differently from conventional-type home cinema audio systems; and this is with regards to more than just maintaining the full audio resolution throughout the electronics. It is my understanding that in all SL audio systems, the SL Boundary Woofers play significantly more audio than the usual Subwoofer(s); so it is possible that this is how it is achieved.

The term "full audio resolution" is a very loose definition and is no guarantee of quality.
Quote:
Perhaps a SL S-15 plus LS Boundary Woofer is akin to a B&W 800 speaker, wherein I am sure you won't argue that a B&W 800 speaker isn't capable of outputting audio at 105dB wink.gif
I agree that this warrants further investigation and I will be finding more out about how the system does what it does when I have it installed in the cinema I am currently building. I will endeavour to let you know as soon as I do! smile.gif

Whether the B&W 800 Series (you don't say which one) can hit reference or not is highly debatable and depends on several factors.

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post #188 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

There is no question in my mind that the S-Series SL audio system quite happlily outputs audio at Reference Levels, with 115 dB for the LFE channel and 105 dB for the other channels. I have not accurately measured the extent of what (if any) distortion or compression occurs when it does; and I would be most interested to discover the answer to this. So I would thank those individuals who have raised this intelligent point.
The fact of the matter is I am not a Sound Engineer, and I do not work for Steinway, so at the present time I simply do not know for sure the precise mechanism via which the S-Series SL audio system achieves Reference Levels (and above) whilst, in my opinion, maintaining such high audio quality.
I think the answer most likely has something to do with the fact that the SL audio systems operate differently from conventional-type home cinema audio systems; and this is with regards to more than just maintaining the full audio resolution throughout the electronics. It is my understanding that in all SL audio systems, the SL Boundary Woofers play significantly more audio than the usual Subwoofer(s); so it is possible that this is how it is achieved.
According to the S-L website, the woofers will produce 114 dB at 1 meter, or 117 dB when corner loaded. They have a stated frequency response of 25 Hz to 500 Hz, but with no reference to a -3 dB point or a stated SPL measurement. They *might do 25 Hz at 90 dB, but it's inlikely they'll do 25 Hz at 115 dB. They're dual-opposed, 10" designs, (similar to the Submerive and Epik Empire, but with smaller drivers), and a 400 watt amp. These are nothing special. Since they're sealed, they'll need a Linkwitz Transform circuit, (boost below F3), to get to 25 Hz, which will use up a lot of amplifier power and driver excursion. It's probably built into the room correction software, but driving these two small drivers to Reference Level at 25 Hz will be quite a trick. I would be astonished if they dig below 40 or 45 Hz at 115 dB. These seem more like powered "woofers" than subwoofers.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #189 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 01:58 PM
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For anyone that is not registered or does not want to peruse 40 pages of pdf, here are the rankings he had:

12) Artcoustic $22,340
11) KEF $28,020
10) Triad $47,800
9) Procella $67,800
8) JBL Synthesis $255,000
7) Klipsch $17,250
6) Paradigm $70,050
5) MK Sound $17,955
4) Pro Audio Technology $101,040
3) Wisdom Audio $126,000
2) James Loudspeaker $35,580
1) Steinway Lyngdorg $42,390
1) (Again?) Steinway Lyngdorf Model M $101,970

Please note that prices are not in US dollars but in British Pounds.

If one is going to make a simplistic assessment of the value of different alignments, it would be that sealed/IB goes the lowest, at the highest cost per dB; horns have the lowest cost per dB at the expense of size, and vented box characteristics lie in between the other two. None is inherently superior across the board, neither is any inherently inferior across the board. The one to use is the one that fits your response and output needs, available space and bank account. -BFM
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post #190 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 02:14 PM
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See that is just it, it does not matter what kind of electronics or design the speakers are, the manufacturer states that the maximum spl at 1 meter is 114 dBs. All you have to do is know what your room does at the listening position to know if it will hit reference or not. Usually higher end speakers will compress and distort when driven too loud but will still sound good. However these good sounding speakers are really not achieving that dynamic realism that many might call bright which is an actual speaker playing the same info louder because it is not compressing. Like I said, in my room I need a speaker that can hit 117 dBs at the speaker without compression(my requirement) to reach 105 dBs at the seat. I would not even test the SL system because they say they can't do it. They may sound awesome but in my theater they would probably blow up or just compress like my Maggies did. If they truly were playing reference better than this is what must have happened. Their room loses only 6 dBs so the SL can reach reference and the other rooms lost more than 12 dBs for the more powerful speakers to sound bad at reference. I remember my Maggies sound awesome even at reference but after measuring them I noticed they were only capable of 100 dBs max at my seats so when I had the volume at reference they were not 105 dBs they were compressing. Not reference but they did sound great so what do you do? Well, I sold them. I wanted real dynamics at reference!
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post #191 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 02:21 PM
 
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This is pretty straight forward. By their own specs they claim they CANNOT hit reference levels at normal listening distances.

What you're saying is that they outperform their own specs.

No speaker manufacturer is going to leave something on the table; if anything they stretch the truth just a tad.

What proof do you offer against these hard numbers? It's simple math, and it's not adding up.
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post #192 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 03:29 PM
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So to sum this up, we have no idea what the size of these rooms are, the seating distance, what acoustic treatments were used, what EQ was being used, and it is apparent the OP was not measuring reference level correctly with his SPL meter. We have no idea of speaker placement, and we have no room measurements. Even the specs provid by the company (SL) do not add up. When challenged by Craig John about what freqencies the "honky" sound was occurring, we get nothing..

You just cannot demo speakers in this manner and write reports ranking speakers in such a biased and opiniated manner (especially when you make broad claims) and expect anyone to take you seriously or to not be challenged. This is called AVS forum for a reason, and the OP seems to have skipped the whole "science" part.

The best way to truly audition speakers is in your room with your equipment.
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post #193 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jindrak View Post

For anyone that is not registered or does not want to peruse 40 pages of pdf, here are the rankings he had:
12) Artcoustic $22,340
11) KEF $28,020
10) Triad $47,800
9) Procella $67,800
8) JBL Synthesis $255,000
7) Klipsch $17,250
6) Paradigm $70,050
5) MK Sound $17,955
4) Pro Audio Technology $101,040
3) Wisdom Audio $126,000
2) James Loudspeaker $35,580
1) Steinway Lyngdorg $42,390
1) (Again?) Steinway Lyngdorf Model M $101,970
Please note that prices are not in US dollars but in British Pounds.

Wow, I hadn't done this math before. Converting 42,390 British pounds for the Steinway Lyngdorf to USD yields $65,870, using this calculator: http://www.x-rates.com/calculator.html

And for that, you get 5 postage stamp sized LCR's, 2 dual-10" subs and a pre/pro and amp. Dr. Bose ain't got NUTHIN' on these guys! eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

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post #194 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 05:43 PM
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I know! For that much money, I could build my own private room for HT, get 3 JBL 3732T's, 4 JBL 8340a's, Denon 4311c, a 240 inch SMX procurve screen, and a pretty much unlimited supply of Behringer amps.

If one is going to make a simplistic assessment of the value of different alignments, it would be that sealed/IB goes the lowest, at the highest cost per dB; horns have the lowest cost per dB at the expense of size, and vented box characteristics lie in between the other two. None is inherently superior across the board, neither is any inherently inferior across the board. The one to use is the one that fits your response and output needs, available space and bank account. -BFM
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post #195 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Wow, I hadn't done this math before. Converting 42,390 British pounds for the Steinway Lyngdorf to USD yields $65,870, using this calculator: http://www.x-rates.com/calculator.html
And for that, you get 5 postage stamp sized LCR's, 2 dual-10" subs and a pre/pro and amp. Dr. Bose ain't got NUTHIN' on these guys! eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
308
Craig

I think you slighted Epik by comparing those bass modules to the Empire, they're smaller than the Legend and would be surprised if they could compare to the Legends...at 800 the pair.

Yup the old GBP may not be what it once was compared to USD, but ya gotta convert although taxes are higher there, does the OPs price include tax?

Love the Bose comment!

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post #196 of 406 Old 07-08-2012, 06:37 PM
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Craig John,

I never even got to the part where the older Triad gold in room LCR's sound better than M&K's best but rated at a familiar 114 dBs they did not stand a chance against the M&K's at reference. 10 dBs below reference and they move up the food chain. Now in this review he loves the M&K S-150 system which is on par with the Klipsch THX ultra 2 system but neither can hold a candle to the 5000 system. Now add the platinums to the mix which are a much louder and better sounding speaker than my old Triads and it becomes clear that it would better the 5000's in all categories but max spl. The 5000's could take much more power than their specs indicate as Don Keele ran 4000 watts thru them! This is what boggles my mind as well.
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post #197 of 406 Old 07-09-2012, 10:26 AM
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It's unfortunate that this thread has taken on such a negative tone. Nothing is learnt that way. AVS is the wrong audience as well for this.

You've shot yourself in the foot with this audience. I can see how the negative reception would be frustrating after all your efforts, but if you can step aside from that and try to see things from the perspective of a technically minded audience, you might start to see why this has happened.

Regarding your definition of "volume capability," I'll suggest that you need a different term for what you are trying to say. The term implies a connection to SPL that isn't there. I'm not sure it needs a different category to ear fatigue. If all systems are playing at the same level at the same distance in a similar sized room, then it's not about output, but the absence of evident system strain or listening fatigue. When you say the system had to be turned down, perhaps you could actually rate the SPL level you measured which you found to be the maximum you could listen to.

In general, it's best to avoid making up your own definitions for terms that are already familiar to your audience. It seems unnecessary, so you lose your audience, they skip over it. Then you get criticised for and counter "yes but did you read my definition?" It's up to you as the writer to get your message across without resorting to long definitions.

What I find odd about your review is the massive swing from highly negative to extremely positive. Both seem a little over done.

Some of your criticisms did get a little repetitive.

Many of the systems were criticised for their performance at reference level, which you specified as "95 db nominal and 115 db peak" (all channels)." THX reference is typically 105 db peaks in the listening position with the bass being 115 db peaks. You may have measured 115 db but there are conditions and techniques that can skew the results, without knowing more precise details, numbers don't mean too much.

Let's consider the SL-15 with a 5" midwoofer. It has a rubber half roll surround, suggesting decent excursion and a driver not very high in sensitivity. It has extension to 120 Hz in a sealed box with 114 db max SPL @ 1m.

So what does it take for a 5" woofer to achieve 114 db @ 1m @ 120 Hz?

Around 800w with no power compression
30 mm excursion peak to peak!

This is based on some simulations of a similar sized midwoofer.

So we can see that this rating is not one that you can take to the bank. The speaker won't do it under all conditions, although I'm sure they have a particular way in which it does in theory reach that level. Max SPL figures are often "interesting."

So instead, let's input 200w. Excursion is 11mm peak to peak if we add a high pass @ 120 Hz. We achieve 112 db which is close to the 114 mentioned.

Now, let's compensate for distance. I find I get closer to 3 db per double distance attenuation, I will assume that for this example.

112 dB @ 1m
109 dB @ 2m
106 dB @ 4m

If we call that our listening distance then the speaker has made reference level with peaks, but only just. With suitable amps, the speakers could measure higher due to bursts that are more into the midrange or top end.

I find that typically, the real useful SPL is usually much less than predicted with these kinds of numbers. The max SPL is not the limiting factor, but what you can actually enjoy listening to.

Many speakers using compression drivers can get harsh well before their max SPL. This can be due to the compression drivers used and the horn chosen. The #4 choice pro speaker has what appears to be an 18 Sound horn which I've used before. It's decent but it's certainly not the best horn out there when it comes to listenability at very high output.
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post #198 of 406 Old 07-09-2012, 11:18 AM
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I hadn't seen this before
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Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

Sorry to rain on your parade Mr Physics Professor, but care to explain how I measured via use of an SPL meter that the SPL outputted by the Steinway audio systems was at and subsequently above reference levels? smile.gif
That's easy: by your own definition you are technically illiterate and have so far shown that you don't actually know what reference is, nor how to measure it correctly, nor did you give any specifics on how you actually did measure it, the obvious conclusion is that your measurement is worthless.

As others including myself have pointed out, what you are claiming for output capability of this system does not jibe with either the manufacturer's own specification (likely to be optimistic anyway) nor with some basic physics. Paul in post 197 has actually done the calcs, but I'm sure you will find some way to dismiss it, at least in your mind.
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Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

I think you need to go speak with the English Professor and have him explain the meaning of the word HYPERBOLE to you, since there's no exaggeration here whatsoever. Because I confirmed the SPL via use of an SPL meter that's a FACT, not a HYPERBOLE professor. wink.gif
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally:
Sums up exactly what I think of your little report, both now and when I made the original statement.
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Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

And thank you for confirming what I had already deduced, namely that you have never in fact even listened to a Steinway system, and hence are passing judgement on a system that you have never listened to, which is akin to reviewing a book that you've never read... your credibility... window... out tongue.gif
There are two things that I will counter here. Firstly, I did not 'judge' the SL system, I commented that it was not physically capable of doing what you claimed it was. My response would have been the same irrespective of brand.

The second is a puerile little audiophool canard of 'you haven't heard it, so you wouldn't know'. I have said in the previous point that this is irrelevant, but I will give some examples to show how foolish it is. I do not need to eat a turd sandwich or stub out a lit cigar on my tongue to know the experience of both will be unpleasant; do you?. Similarly, I know enough about motor vehicle performance to know that if you claimed a 1-100 in 4 sec and 250kmh for a 1 litre 6 speed, normally aspirated drivetrain in a family saloon (~1.5t) I'd know you were wrong and you'd need good measurements to show otherwise.
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post #199 of 406 Old 07-09-2012, 12:38 PM
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Is MadBoy the former "ColdMachine"?

careful boys with the insults since it looks like he could open a can of whoop ass if anyone ever meets him in person. biggrin.gif

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ICR [ Sales Consulting and Small Part-Time AV shop, very small...  ]

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post #200 of 406 Old 07-09-2012, 01:11 PM
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I've listened to Procellia, Wisdom, Triad, JBL Synth, Pro Audio Tech (Pro Home Cinema) and the S-L. All excellent but preferred Wisdom and Triad however some of my fav is Genelec and Tannoy ( with traced out eq ).

There is quite the span in cost as well as diversity in product design. So maybe an A for effort...

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post #201 of 406 Old 07-09-2012, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madcutterboy 
10) TRIAD:
- Equipment:
o Speakers: 2 x Triad InRoom Platinum LCR (L & R), Bi-Amped; 1 x Triad InRoom Platinum LCR Center, Bi-Amped (Centre); 4 x Triad OnWall Gold Surround (Surrounds)
o Subwoofers: 2 x Triad InRoom Platinum DSP Sub; with 2 x Triad RackAmp 1000 DSP
o Pre-Amp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7020A
o Power Amplifier(s): 2 x Sherbourn PA 7-350

Hmmmmm....

Looking at this list of equipment shows that the Triad Platinums were "Bi-Amped". It also shows that TWO 7-channel amps, (14 total channels of amplification), were used to drive 5 speakers. That is VERY interesting! eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif If that's the case, they must have been active biamped because they can't be passive bi-amped. Triad only provides ONE set of speaker binding posts, (how refreshing is that... a high end speaker manufacturer who doesn't even provide the opportunity to indulge in "snake oil"!)

In addition, Triads are not set up from the factory for active bi-amping. There is no way to access the drivers individually, or in like-driver pairs. So, if this was done, the native internal passive crossovers would need to be disconnected and replaced with external crossovers, and additional speaker binding posts would need to be added in order to connect to the speakers individually.

This raises multiple questions: Who did this, and why? What external crossover was used? What crossover frequency and slope was used? How were the drivers accessed? What modifications were performed to the cabinet to allow the multiple connections? What drivers were grouped together: tweeter and midranges, or woofers and midranges?

If the tweeter/midranges were driven together, and the internal tweeter/midrange crossover was bypassed, the tweeter would be active down to the midrange/woofer crossover, well into the "honky" range. IOW, it is certainly possible that the tweeter in THIS system was crossed over low enough to make the system sound "honky." This would also severely limit the dynamic capability by driving the tweeter well outside it's bandwidth.

If this is the system under "review", it would hardly be a fair or appropriate system to "impartially" review. eek.gif

Nigel, please share where these speakers were demo'd, as well as how the speakers were modified. In addition, any details you can share about the room and setup, including the room correction system, would likely shed some light on the obvious issues in your demo. If the speakers were modified and made to sound worse, it's entirely possible that the subwoofer integration was similarly F'd up, which would explain the sub-optimal bass you heard.

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #202 of 406 Old 07-09-2012, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Craig John,
I never even got to the part where the older Triad gold in room LCR's sound better than M&K's best but rated at a familiar 114 dBs they did not stand a chance against the M&K's at reference. 10 dBs below reference and they move up the food chain. Now in this review he loves the M&K S-150 system which is on par with the Klipsch THX ultra 2 system but neither can hold a candle to the 5000 system. Now add the platinums to the mix which are a much louder and better sounding speaker than my old Triads and it becomes clear that it would better the 5000's in all categories but max spl. The 5000's could take much more power than their specs indicate as Don Keele ran 4000 watts thru them! This is what boggles my mind as well.

MK,

Your older version of the Triad Gold LCR used the same dispersion lens as the Platinum LCR's and CC. Did you *ever* notice any honkiness from that tweeter/lens combo?? I know you really liked the sound quality of that speaker, and your only concern was it's max output capability. It would be interesting, and another valuable data point, to know if you ever heard honkiness from this speaker.

Craig

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Actually the triad speakers I had(7 LCR in room golds), performed better than the M&K's on music at 100 dBs. The Triads sound the smoothest and had the most energy to the music. They actually sound less like a horn than the M&K's which were soft domes. I have always said without hearing the newer golds or platinums I could make a guess they would be hard to beat for HT and music. Those little Triads I had were awesome sounding and sound much bigger than they look. I bet being small and 114 dBs max spl would give these SL speakers a run for their money. I actually ranked them last for HT in my room only for the spl which did not meet my requirements, they finished second for music and maybe 1st with more volume. My dual stacked DR's though will be hard to beat though as they are very impressive as an array. They created more energy, bigger sound, and more extension arrayed.
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post #204 of 406 Old 07-10-2012, 04:50 AM
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madboynutter, I applaud your desire and effort to share your experiences, and I honestly commend you for taking some of the feedback to heart and revising your review (removing 'direct', describing your background, etc.).
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Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

However, I must point out that you have admitted having a personal association with Triad, so you are not exactly wholly unbiased are you?

(The personal relationship is primarily that he owns the speakers.)
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Originally Posted by madboynutter View Post

For your information I paid no less than the Trade Price for the audio system, and I already placed the order way before writing and posting my review. wink.gif

Writing your review after the purchase means your review is biased. Which is perfectly fine, but it is inaccurate to call it 'unbiased'.

-Max
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Quickly hold up a mirror in front of him (his own compact would do) and he'll be so mesmerised, you'll have time to stroll away.

Calling me narcissistic really??? rolleyes.gif

**sigh** Yet another puerile insult, with no relevance whatsoever to the topic of discussion... it seems that me repeated requests to cease with the personal attacks and keep matters adult, intellectual and topic relevant are sadly being ignored...
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madboynutter, I applaud your desire and effort to share your experiences, and I honestly commend you for taking some of the feedback to heart and revising your review (removing 'direct', describing your background, etc.).
(The personal relationship is primarily that he owns the speakers.)
Writing your review after the purchase means your review is biased. Which is perfectly fine, but it is inaccurate to call it 'unbiased'.
-Max

Hi Max,

Thank you for the kind words. smile.gif

RE: "Writing your review after the purchase means your review is biased. Which is perfectly fine, but it is inaccurate to call it 'unbiased'." - No, it isn't. I took copious notes and made a start on the various write-ups in that regard throughout the auditioning process; I subsequently decided to proceed with purchasing the Steinway Lyndorf audio system, after which I sat down to complete the write-up of my review. I had originally intended to do an equally lengthy write-up for all brands, but after sitting down to start the actual write-up I decided against doing so because firstly it was going to take too long and secondly the document would have ended up around 400 pages long! wink.gif

And because I have no affiliation whatsoever with any individual brand or manufactuer my opinion IS most certainly wholly unbiased (incidenally how often does this occur? very rarely, if at all, in my opinion); and as such my written opinion is not skewed in any regard due to bias, because there isn't any. My conclusions with regards to my opinion of these various systems does not in fact in any regard make me biased. Futhermore I have not yet received delivery of the goods, and if I so choosed I could in fact cancel the order for the Steinway Lyngdorf audio system and purchase another if I so choosed. So for this reason also my opnion is most certainly wholly unbiased. smile.gif

Although it would be an insteresting question to put to all of those so frantically seeking to belittle my opinion is how many of them is in fact wholly unbiased, like I am... I am thinking that the answer would be ZERO. wink.gif
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I hadn't seen this before
That's easy: by your own definition you are technically illiterate and have so far shown that you don't actually know what reference is, nor how to measure it correctly, nor did you give any specifics on how you actually did measure it, the obvious conclusion is that your measurement is worthless. As others including myself have pointed out, what you are claiming for output capability of this system does not jibe with either the manufacturer's own specification (likely to be optimistic anyway) nor with some basic physics. Paul in post 197 has actually done the calcs, but I'm sure you will find some way to dismiss it, at least in your mind.

I really must ask that you please kindly refrain from the personal insults and attacks... please can we kindly keep the content of posts to that of intellectual debate? smile.gif

With regards to your repeated insistence and that of others, that the system is incapable of achieving Reference Levels in the respective room sizes, hold that thought... wink.gif

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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Firstly, I did not 'judge' the SL system, I commented that it was not physically capable of doing what you claimed it was.

Thank you for putting your neck / creditibilty on the line by making such a statement, wherein it is noted that you haven't in fact ever auditioned or tested a Steinway Lyngdorf audio system, and like I have said above, hold that thought... wink.gif

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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

The second is a puerile little audiophool canard of 'you haven't heard it, so you wouldn't know'. I have said in the previous point that this is irrelevant, but I will give some examples to show how foolish it is. I do not need to eat a turd sandwich or stub out a lit cigar on my tongue to know the experience of both will be unpleasant; do you?. Similarly, I know enough about motor vehicle performance to know that if you claimed a 1-100 in 4 sec and 250kmh for a 1 litre 6 speed, normally aspirated drivetrain in a family saloon (~1.5t) I'd know you were wrong and you'd need good measurements to show otherwise.

With the utmost respect, I wholly disagree that you can make such a strong statement that the respective Steinway Lyngdorf audio system is "not physically capable of doing what you claimed it was" without having ever auditioned and tested it yourself. You are stating this as if it is a fact when in reality it is in fact a theory that you have come up with after completing some calculations. I am quite frankly amazed at the number of members of this forum who have done the same.

This is not a "a puerile little audiophool canard of 'you haven't heard it, so you wouldn't know'."; I genuinely believe that to make such a sweeping statement and be absolutely sure that your theory is correct, you must in fact audition and test the respective system to confirm your theory; and do so before stating it as if it is fact. smile.gif
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post #208 of 406 Old 07-10-2012, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by paulspencer View Post

It's unfortunate that this thread has taken on such a negative tone. Nothing is learnt that way. AVS is the wrong audience as well for this.
You've shot yourself in the foot with this audience. I can see how the negative reception would be frustrating after all your efforts, but if you can step aside from that and try to see things from the perspective of a technically minded audience, you might start to see why this has happened.
Regarding your definition of "volume capability," I'll suggest that you need a different term for what you are trying to say. The term implies a connection to SPL that isn't there. I'm not sure it needs a different category to ear fatigue. If all systems are playing at the same level at the same distance in a similar sized room, then it's not about output, but the absence of evident system strain or listening fatigue. When you say the system had to be turned down, perhaps you could actually rate the SPL level you measured which you found to be the maximum you could listen to.
In general, it's best to avoid making up your own definitions for terms that are already familiar to your audience. It seems unnecessary, so you lose your audience, they skip over it. Then you get criticised for and counter "yes but did you read my definition?" It's up to you as the writer to get your message across without resorting to long definitions.
What I find odd about your review is the massive swing from highly negative to extremely positive. Both seem a little over done.
Some of your criticisms did get a little repetitive.
Many of the systems were criticised for their performance at reference level, which you specified as "95 db nominal and 115 db peak" (all channels)." THX reference is typically 105 db peaks in the listening position with the bass being 115 db peaks. You may have measured 115 db but there are conditions and techniques that can skew the results, without knowing more precise details, numbers don't mean too much.
Let's consider the SL-15 with a 5" midwoofer. It has a rubber half roll surround, suggesting decent excursion and a driver not very high in sensitivity. It has extension to 120 Hz in a sealed box with 114 db max SPL @ 1m.
So what does it take for a 5" woofer to achieve 114 db @ 1m @ 120 Hz?
Around 800w with no power compression
30 mm excursion peak to peak!
This is based on some simulations of a similar sized midwoofer.
So we can see that this rating is not one that you can take to the bank. The speaker won't do it under all conditions, although I'm sure they have a particular way in which it does in theory reach that level. Max SPL figures are often "interesting."
So instead, let's input 200w. Excursion is 11mm peak to peak if we add a high pass @ 120 Hz. We achieve 112 db which is close to the 114 mentioned.
Now, let's compensate for distance. I find I get closer to 3 db per double distance attenuation, I will assume that for this example.
112 dB @ 1m
109 dB @ 2m
106 dB @ 4m
If we call that our listening distance then the speaker has made reference level with peaks, but only just. With suitable amps, the speakers could measure higher due to bursts that are more into the midrange or top end.
I find that typically, the real useful SPL is usually much less than predicted with these kinds of numbers. The max SPL is not the limiting factor, but what you can actually enjoy listening to.
Many speakers using compression drivers can get harsh well before their max SPL. This can be due to the compression drivers used and the horn chosen. The #4 choice pro speaker has what appears to be an 18 Sound horn which I've used before. It's decent but it's certainly not the best horn out there when it comes to listenability at very high output.

Hi Paul,

Thank you for making one of the more appropriate posts so far on this thread. smile.gif

RE "It's unfortunate that this thread has taken on such a negative tone. Nothing is learnt that way." - I could not agree more.wink.gif

With regards to the latest topic of debate, namely whether or not the respective Steinway Lyngdorf S-Series audio system is capable of outputting audio volume at Cinema Reference Levels, hold that thought as I will be posting something about this in a sec...

All the best,

Nigel smile.gif
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post #209 of 406 Old 07-10-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Here's an S-L system I'd like to hear:
700
Although at $150K a pair, I stick with my "honkers." biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif It's more expensive than a Steinway piano. eek.gif
Craig

I heard this setup at Cedia 2 years ago. Nothing special although not in the best environment.

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post #210 of 406 Old 07-10-2012, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

As you have been told over and over... it does not hit reference level at the listening position.

Hold that thought... and thank you for repeatedly making such a statement, and consequently putting your credibility on the line by being so insistent that this is the case. Let's hope you're right and I'm wrong, eh? smile.gif

Personally, I would wish to do so without having in fact tested the respective audio system myself, such that I knew for sure without a doubt that I was most certainly correct.. but hey, that's me wink.gif
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