Rotel with B&W 802D - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 07-06-2012, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I am using Rotel RC 1580 Pre-Amp and RB 1582 Amp to power my 802D in Stereo Mode. The Amp is 200 W x 2 Channel. I am not too happy with the outcome of sound. It does not have the punch (base) required. When I heard the same in the store, it was with Aquphase Amp. This set-up has been recommended by the B&W Dealer himself.

What is the reason for not getting the desired punch ? Do I need a Sub with these speakers ?
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post #2 of 21 Old 07-06-2012, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swankyguy View Post

I am using Rotel RC 1580 Pre-Amp and RB 1582 Amp to power my 802D in Stereo Mode. The Amp is 200 W x 2 Channel. I am not too happy with the outcome of sound. It does not have the punch (base) required. When I heard the same in the store, it was with Aquphase Amp. This set-up has been recommended by the B&W Dealer himself.
What is the reason for not getting the desired punch ? Do I need a Sub with these speakers ?

I'm in the market for a used pair of 802D, so I do not hate them.

But the fact is, B&W (800D/ 802D/ 803D, etc) have poor horizontal off-axis/ polar responses. It means that if your room has great acoustics, they may sound great. But if your room isn't a great match for them, they may sound bad.

So if you have the right room, like your dealer, the 802D will sound just like they did at the dealer.

200wpc x 2ch is more than enough power. A 1000wpc x 2ch amp isn't going to help. I bet it's just the room.

You may try adding a great tight accurate subwoofer like Rythmik and set your processor XO to 80Hz & speakers to small.

A great subwoofer will make you forget about a lot of things and put a big grin on your face. biggrin.gif
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post #3 of 21 Old 07-06-2012, 07:37 AM
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More chances than not, it is a combination of your room dimensions, how the speakers are set up in your room, and the acoustics of the room.

Give us the details of how your room, speakers, and you are set up.....
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post #4 of 21 Old 07-06-2012, 01:21 PM
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You should make the dealer come set them up for you, that's a lot if money to spend to not have them place them and dial them in, jmo.

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post #5 of 21 Old 07-06-2012, 01:35 PM
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You should make the dealer come set them up for you, that's a lot if money to spend to not have them place them and dial them in, jmo.

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post #6 of 21 Old 07-07-2012, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replies. The room is acoustically good. It has wooden flooring, cemented walls with heavy curtains and a door on one side. It is about 30 feet x 20 feet. Is the set-up good enough ? I think the logic of B&W being poor on horizontal axis holds good for any high end speaker and so does the acoustics. I wanted to find out with Rotel are good enough for the 802D. If I need to change Rotel, which amplifiers would you suggest to drive them the best with a heavy base.
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post #7 of 21 Old 07-07-2012, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Swankyguy View Post

Thanks for all the replies. The room is acoustically good. It has wooden flooring, cemented walls with heavy curtains and a door on one side. It is about 30 feet x 20 feet. Is the set-up good enough ? I think the logic of B&W being poor on horizontal axis holds good for any high end speaker and so does the acoustics. I wanted to find out with Rotel are good enough for the 802D. If I need to change Rotel, which amplifiers would you suggest to drive them the best with a heavy base.

The Rotel is great. Keep it.

For that size room, you just need 2 bad a$$ subwoofers to help out - like Funk Audio, SVS, Rythmik, Epik, HSU.

Then it will be great.
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post #8 of 21 Old 07-07-2012, 07:50 AM
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Naim can slam, T+A had good bass from all my listening sessions, Boulder sounded good to me with respects to bass delievery, Octave for a tube amp has very good bass levels on par with the others. Acoustic Reasearch was great as well. However none of these did I hear with B&W speakers.

Maybe you should look at a subwoofer

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post #9 of 21 Old 07-07-2012, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The Rotel is great. Keep it.
For that size room, you just need 2 bad a$$ subwoofers to help out - like Funk Audio, SVS, Rythmik, Epik, HSU.
Then it will be great.

doesnt rotel and b&w get paired together quite a bit? personally I have not liked any of the rotel products I have heard, but I cant say I have heard his gear. Ive heard their receivers an IA and a cdp.

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post #10 of 21 Old 07-07-2012, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

doesnt rotel and b&w get paired together quite a bit?

Yeah, I've seen B&W get paired with Rotel & Classe.
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post #11 of 21 Old 07-08-2012, 06:18 PM
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There is a pretty good reason you often see B&W paired with Rotel and Classe. B&W owns Rotel and Classe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowers_%26_Wilkins

Thanks
.r
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post #12 of 21 Old 07-08-2012, 06:50 PM
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Same reason you see Revel getting paired with Mark Levinson & Lexicon. They are all owned by Harman. biggrin.gif
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post #13 of 21 Old 07-09-2012, 02:34 AM - Thread Starter
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In case I need to buy a sub, what capacity should I buy ? 200 W / 500 W / 1000 W ? I need the thump, what make would give me the beat to hit the heart (specially when I hear Dire Straits). Let me know.
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post #14 of 21 Old 07-09-2012, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swankyguy View Post

In case I need to buy a sub, what capacity should I buy ? 200 W / 500 W / 1000 W ? I need the thump, what make would give me the beat to hit the heart (specially when I hear Dire Straits). Let me know.

Any flagship models from SVS, HSU, Rythmik, Seaton, JTR will do.

I recommend the custom made Funk Audio 18.0 subs (TSAD18V1). It is beauty and the beast combined. High-end quality deep bass down to 10Hz. The exquisite masterful fit and finish will make your B&W 802D proud. You can even choose the veneer and stain/ finish to match your 802D's color.

I ordered dual Funk Audio 18.0 to match the finish of my Salon2 mahogany gloss. biggrin.gif

http://www.funkaudio.ca/18.0.html

There is a powered version and an unpowered version.

The powered version is $1,100 more expensive. It has a 2,400 Watts 4 ohm amp.

But I prefer the unpowered version since I prefer my amp to be far away from a vibrating monster sub, instead of being attached to it.

So I bought a Harman Crown XLS 2500 amp for $525 delivered from Amazon. It is also 2400 Watts bridged 4 ohms.
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post #15 of 21 Old 09-23-2012, 01:35 AM
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4x ø200mm (8 in) Rohacell® cone bass in a big cabinet with big solid cabinet with 200watts behind it and there not enough bass eek.gif Thats a good add for B&W ! youve spent all that money on the 'ultimate' speaker and now you need a sub mad.gif

You should have saved the money and got a decent set of high end bookshelf / standmount and got some serious bass with something like a bk monolith +. These seem like good value for money and nobody seems to complain about them once they are fitted. Especially the bigger ones.

http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers.htm
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post #16 of 21 Old 09-23-2012, 07:36 AM
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Obviously, a good subwoofer will give you the slammin bass you desire, but that does not mean that the Rotel also does not pair well with your speakers. I went outside the box a bit when I went searching for an amp and picked up a pro amp on the used market from Crown called the K2. It is 500 watts a side at 8 ohms, has no fan and has tremendous tight bass slam and in my system is also transparent. I was quite pleasantly surprised at how good it is. You know your speakers have good bass, so have fun in the search and find something that does the job.
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post #17 of 21 Old 09-23-2012, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsounds View Post

4x ø200mm (8 in) Rohacell® cone bass in a big cabinet with big solid cabinet with 200watts behind it and there not enough bass eek.gif Thats a good add for B&W ! youve spent all that money on the 'ultimate' speaker and now you need a sub mad.gif
You should have saved the money and got a decent set of high end bookshelf / standmount and got some serious bass with something like a bk monolith +. These seem like good value for money and nobody seems to complain about them once they are fitted. Especially the bigger ones.
http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers.htm

The 802D2 have enough bass for most people. So do the Salon2, Orion, and Phil3. They all have "enough" bass for a lot people, probably for you.

But everyone is different. You can't expect everyone to like what you like.
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post #18 of 21 Old 09-23-2012, 08:40 PM
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There seems to be such a misconception in the world about "wattage" and "power necessities". As long as your running a clean signal with no clipping/and or distortion, power is power. Period. Rotel's 100 watts per channel is NO MORE efficient or "better" than Yamaha's 100 watts/ per channel. People who claim an "open soundstage" and "tighter bass" from switching amplifiers are funny. I have B & W 800 Diamonds and I power them with Emotiva amplifiers just because they have a nice warranty, are of a very solid construction, and offer a massive amount of headroom if need be if I move to a large room and I want to blow my friends away. The most power your probably EVER going to use is maybe a peak of 70 or 80 watts if your listening very very loud. On average, 4 or 5 watts will power your speakers to a nice listening volume.

On the topic of your bass problem - I have not found tower speakers (except super towers) which are subwoofer capable on the bass side. They just aren't built for that. My 800 Diamonds have completely insufficient bass in my opinion. I use a Martin Logan Depth and I absolutely love it. I used to have a JL Fathom and I even like this better. Cleaner in my opinion. Plus, adding a sub takes the extra bass load of your amplifier to power your speakers. You don't buy 802Ds to add bass to your system, you buy them to be a natural sounding speaker. Any questions ask me!
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post #19 of 21 Old 09-24-2012, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TVMAN1991 View Post

There seems to be such a misconception in the world about "wattage" and "power necessities". As long as your running a clean signal with no clipping/and or distortion, power is power. Period. Rotel's 100 watts per channel is NO MORE efficient or "better" than Yamaha's 100 watts/ per channel. People who claim an "open soundstage" and "tighter bass" from switching amplifiers are funny. I have B & W 800 Diamonds and I power them with Emotiva amplifiers just because they have a nice warranty, are of a very solid construction, and offer a massive amount of headroom if need be if I move to a large room and I want to blow my friends away. The most power your probably EVER going to use is maybe a peak of 70 or 80 watts if your listening very very loud. On average, 4 or 5 watts will power your speakers to a nice listening volume.
On the topic of your bass problem - I have not found tower speakers (except super towers) which are subwoofer capable on the bass side. They just aren't built for that. My 800 Diamonds have completely insufficient bass in my opinion. I use a Martin Logan Depth and I absolutely love it. I used to have a JL Fathom and I even like this better. Cleaner in my opinion. Plus, adding a sub takes the extra bass load of your amplifier to power your speakers. You don't buy 802Ds to add bass to your system, you buy them to be a natural sounding speaker. Any questions ask me!

I agree with you 100%.

High quality amps are amps. Clean honest power is power.

No tower speakers in the world will match some of the best subwoofers in the world in terms of power compression and dynamic output.

But there will always be folks who believe otherwise. And we can't expect them to agree with us because they never will. Just like we will never agree with them. biggrin.gif

It's a point we all need to agree to disagree.

And as far as "enough" bass, that's pure personal preference. Some people think Bose has enough bass, right? biggrin.gif
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post #20 of 21 Old 09-24-2012, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I agree with you 100%.
High quality amps are amps. Clean honest power is power.
No tower speakers in the world will match some of the best subwoofers in the world in terms of power compression and dynamic output.
But there will always be folks who believe otherwise. And we can't expect them to agree with us because they never will. Just like we will never agree with them. biggrin.gif
It's a point we all need to agree to disagree.
And as far as "enough" bass, that's pure personal preference. Some people think Bose has enough bass, right? biggrin.gif


LOLOL @ the last comment. I love the "acoustimass" module. What is it a 6 inch driver that digs to
50 hz??

Speakers are most important before amps and receivers. Always.
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post #21 of 21 Old 03-05-2013, 07:15 PM
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Hi - I've got the 802Ds powered by a BIG McIntosh - MC2500, which is 2 X 500. For some songs, it completely thumps. For other songs, the bass sounds a bit light. When I'm listening to a song and the bass sounds light, I move the speakers back toward the corners of the room about 6 inches. Makes all the difference in the world. I'd be very reluctant to put a sub or subs in the room with them. They're just so accurate that I feel like I'd be doing them a huge injustice. Moving them back 6 inches seems to make them way more bass-y. For some songs; too bass-y. I've come to enjoy giving them a good shove once in a while, depending on the type of music I'm listening to. Even though I rarely give them enough power to really let them shine, they're nothing short of amazing. My advice: get them, give them plenty of power and a decent-sized room and let B&W show you what you've been missing in your music.
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