Which of these budget towers? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 46 Old 07-12-2012, 08:59 AM
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JAMO S608. Great price , great sound and great bass from their 10 inch bass drivers smile.gif
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post #32 of 46 Old 07-12-2012, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Moot. In an average two way system at least 80% of the power is used by the woofers. To get a modest 3dB increase in woofer output would require that the power increase to the woofer alone be doubled, and that's not happening here, it's already getting at least 68 watts out of that 85. What's getting a major power boost is the tweeter, and it can't make use of that power. Bi-amping isn't about power, it's about replacing the high distortion and insertion losses of passive crossovers with low distortion and zero insertion loss active crossovers. If the passives are still in place there's little to nothing to be gained.

That's a good point. There are lots of factors that would determine the benefits/losses of bi-amping. How well a particular receiver handles sending power to 4.0 vs 2.0 or 5.1 vs 7.1 would make a big difference. If the speaker was just a woofer and a tweeter, bi-amping would be pretty pointless, but if the speaker has a mid-driver (or two), the mid-driver would be on the high frequency circuit and could make good use of the extra power.

I disagree about bi-amping not being about power, otherwise we would see a lot more speakers with removable or bypassable crossovers. A passive crossover is not going to cause high distortion just because it is passive, an active crossover and passive crossover would introduce identical amounts of distortion if they were built using the same components (assuming you do not exceed the components rated power limits using it passively). A passive or active filter could be built to outperform the other, it all depends on the components used in each. The only part of the signal being attenuated (and distorted) when it goes through a filter is the part of the signal that is not being used by the driver at the output of the filter, the portion of the signal being used goes through the filter untouched as if the filter was not even there.

The losses due to passive filters are not very significant, the lost energy is the energy being converted into heat in the components of the filter, so as long as the current through those components is within the limits, the losses are minimal. The main issue is that the power is being divided among multipe drivers, again this makes the biggest difference when mid-drivers are present.
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post #33 of 46 Old 07-12-2012, 11:28 AM
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The pros and cons of active v passive crossover are same with any active v passive filter. The key one imo is the ability to simulate inductive elements without the hassle of actual wound inductors, which you pay for by having to power the active components.
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post #34 of 46 Old 07-12-2012, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Passive crossovers can cause losses of 5dB or more. That's a lot of power wasted.



Anyway, back to speakers please.

For the towers, I'm looking for something in the $500 or less price range that isn't harsh or fatiguing in the highs, smooth midrange, and punchy midbass. Powerful impact that I can feel in the midbass region for something like a drum solo is vastly more important than low end extension, since I'll be using a subwoofer. None of these towers have enough bass to even think about running without a sub, so I'd much rather them be tuned a bit higher to give more punch in the midbass region than trying to squeeze 30hz out of a pair of 6.5" woofers. They just can't do it with any authority. That being said, I did expect more going into this. When playing something I consider to be a bass heavy track in the demo area at Frys, even with something big like the TSi500s with 8 total 6.5" woofers, there still isn't much bass. But, the woofers are hardly moving. Then I saw this video posted in another thread where someone had similar feelings as me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW1ewGBX3jc

I don't really listen to music like that, but I bet if the speakers I've been demoing actually moved some air like they are in that video, bass wouldn't be a problem. Maybe he has bass jacked up super high and it sounds like crap in real life, I don't know. Guess I'm just used to seeing speakers actually move in order to play lower frequencies.

And to the dude who recommended the Jamo 608, I can't find them for sale anywhere in the US. All the sites are foreign when I do searches for them.
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post #35 of 46 Old 07-12-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strakele View Post

For the towers, I'm looking for something in the $500 or less price range that isn't harsh or fatiguing in the highs, smooth midrange, and punchy midbass. Powerful impact that I can feel in the midbass region for something like a drum solo is vastly more important than low end extension, since I'll be using a subwoofer.

I think you might be in the wrong budget range for towers like you describe. Towers at $500 or below are likely to be a compromise on one or two of the qualities that you specify.

Energy's have a reputation for a stronger midbass (although it might not be enough for you). The Veritas V6.2s are on special for $350 ea. More likely, if you want "powerful" midbass with "impact," you probably need one of these or these biggrin.gif

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post #36 of 46 Old 07-12-2012, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kach22 View Post

an active crossover and passive crossover would introduce identical amounts of distortion if they were built using the same components
But they aren't. Actives don't use coils, and the cap values are some 1/100 of that for passive, so the highest quality caps can be used at minimal cost. And that's analog, digital crossovers can be even lower in distortion.
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The only part of the signal being attenuated (and distorted) when it goes through a filter is the part of the signal that is not being used by the driver at the output of the filter. The portion of the signal being used goes through the filter untouched as if the filter was not even there.
That's not the case. In a low pass all of the signal passes through the inductors, in a high pass all of the signal passes through the caps, and in a bandpass all of the signal passes through both caps and coils that aren't shunts.
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The losses due to passive filters are not very significant,
3dB is not uncommon, that's half your power. 2dB is considered very good, 1dB is rare.
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The main issue is that the power is being divided among multipe drivers, again this makes the biggest difference when mid-drivers are present.
In a typical three way system 75% of the power is dissipated in the woofers, 20% in the midranges, 5% in the tweeters. The main use for multi-band amplification is in pro-sound, and it's used there for the driver protection offered by 4th order and higher filtering that would be prohibitively expensive with passive components capable of handling the load without excessive insertion loss.

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post #37 of 46 Old 07-12-2012, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like I can get the whole Jamo 606 set for $400. Smaller version of the 608. Sure seems cheap, but I'm surprised with the amount of positive reviews I've read. How do you think these would compare?
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post #38 of 46 Old 07-12-2012, 11:11 PM
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The Jamo s606 set is a great deal. Plus you've got a sub to handle the low bass so it should be a very nice system for you.

Hi res photos of s606 system
http://www.minhembio.com/Sleeping%20Sun/133026/

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post #39 of 46 Old 07-13-2012, 12:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Very nice pictures! Would you describe the upper midrange and highs of the towers as smooth? Are they ever fatiguing? How about midbass?

What are your thoughts on the center and surrounds? I've read they are the weaker part of the set. Do you agree?

Thanks!
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post #40 of 46 Old 07-13-2012, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strakele View Post

Very nice pictures! Would you describe the upper midrange and highs of the towers as smooth? Are they ever fatiguing? How about midbass?
What are your thoughts on the center and surrounds? I've read they are the weaker part of the set. Do you agree?
Thanks!

I have not heard the Jamo 606 set, but with you wanting a lot of punch in the mid-bass, I think they might not be right for you. They do not have a woofer on the front, only the side mounted 8" woofer, which would produce bass that sounds and feels more similar to a subwoofer. I think having woofers facing at you will let you feel the punch from music as well as hear it.
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post #41 of 46 Old 07-13-2012, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I would think that at midbass frequencies, the direction the cone is facing isn't vital. I could be wrong.

Hopefully afrogt will be back to say how punchy they are in the midbass region along with my other questions.
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post #42 of 46 Old 07-14-2012, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strakele View Post

I would think that at midbass frequencies, the direction the cone is facing isn't vital. I could be wrong.
The direction the cone faces becomes an issue at roughly 200-250Hz.

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post #43 of 46 Old 07-14-2012, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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That's what I thought. I believe the crossover of the 606 is at 150hz.
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post #44 of 46 Old 07-14-2012, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The direction the cone faces becomes an issue at roughly 200-250Hz.

I hadn't thought too much about this, but after researching this online through forum posts, research papers, and ...wikipedia, it seems as though sound is directional down to around 80-100Hz, which makes the THX standard crossover make a lot more sense now. It has a lot to do with the distance between your ears. Even so, most bass sounds are accompanied by higher frequencies initially which will make even lower frequency sound still seem to be directional to the listener; so for stereo listening purposes this doesn't really matter as much as it might seem. But...

I was basing my suggestion off of a personal experience of feeling like I was getting slapped in the face when passing my head directly in-front of my center speaker while messing with the C.Width setting on my receiver, this made me realize how much bass was above 80Hz. When at high volume it can feel as though the sound is hitting me in the chest at my normal listening position. When the bass is coming from the subwoofer the couch or whole house would begin to shake before I would get a similar feeling (basing this off of when I only had the RC Energy Micro 5.1 set with the crossover to the subwoofer at 150Hz). So when I said "feel the punch from music as well as hear it" I was not referring to feeling the floor shake, as any subwoofer will do, but feeling the mid-bass hit you in the chest.

The RC Energy Micro mid-drivers are tiny compared to the Jamo's, so maybe 150Hz can give you that hit in the chest feeling with larger drivers. I use a crossover of 50Hz now, I suppose I could turn it up to 150 and test it out, but trying to be unbiased and having no real measurements to compare besides "what I feel" would make it almost worthless. Connecting an accelerometer up to a simulated human chest and recording the data at my listening position could be a good experiment, but I'm getting married soon and have already put all but one of my arduino projects on hold, so that wouldn't happen for quite a while.
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That's what I thought. I believe the crossover of the 606 is at 150hz.

I looked at their spec sheet and that is correct.
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post #45 of 46 Old 07-14-2012, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. My only real experience with this stuff is in car audio. Generally, imaging cues start around 150hz. It's usually said that you can't localize frequencies below 80hz. However, I believe that this is only true in an anechoic chamber, or theater where absolutely nothing resonates at all. Maybe it's just because I'm thinking about it, but I can localize tones much lower by the pressure difference in the air.

Anyway, in a car it's rare to have a driver on axis, but it's still possible to get good imaging, midbass punch, etc. Of course that's a much smaller volume to pressurize. Anyway, I'm hoping someone who owns the 606s can comment.

If the 8" woofer only plays up to 150hz, that's well before it will start to beam, so the sound it produces should be omnidirectional. I don't know if that also applies to the punch in the chest kind of impact.
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post #46 of 46 Old 07-14-2012, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kach22 View Post

I hadn't thought too much about this, but after researching this online through forum posts, research papers, and ...wikipedia, it seems as though sound is directional down to around 80-100Hz.
What extends down to 80-100Hz is your ability to directionally locate sources. That's a different question than what was raised here, which is the polar radiation characteristic of a woofer. That is determined mainly by the size of the baffle; being narrow the average tower cab's polar response is omni-directional up to 200-250Hz. A speaker's radiation angle only goes to 180 degrees when the baffle is a full wavelength in dimension.

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