I would like some Focal and Paradigm owners to help me pick out my fronts. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 07-13-2012, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like to say I have narrowed it down to these brands for speakers and I want to use them for a home theater set up (5.1 channel only).

For the front left and right, I can either go with frontstanding or bookshelfs on stands. However, I don't know if either the Focal 806/807 or the Paradigm Studio 10/20 require special stands since I learned they are quite large.

Paradigm

Don't know if it's true that the S10v5 sound better than the S20v5 or not, but if I were to use one for the fronts, will I be missing much for music, like soundstages, imaging, etc.

The Studio 60's are kind of appealing (not price wise), but because I assume they will be amazing for music and live concerts on Blu-ray since they have a wider range.

If I go with the Studio 60's, will it be possible to combine older versions of the Studio 10's & 20's as rears, or will the sound and timbre, tonal quality, be noticeable different for HT movie use?

Lastly for music and fronts, will the Studio 60's be a night and day difference from the Studio 20's or 10's, when listening to music from CDs and lossless files?


Focal

If I bought the 807V, will this be about the same as the Studio 20 from Paradigm in terms of imaging, soundstage, clarity, mids, highs, etc? Which has a better bass? I want to forego the subwoofer completely, and will not be getting one for sure.

For the 816V, is it better, equal or worse than the Studio 60's? Let's forget about price between the two for a second --on pure performance and sound quality alone, which would be better?

Will it be a night and day difference if I use these as fronts, opposed to the 807V--meaning music will sound much more amazing on it?


I know this was a long read, but thank you for your time guys and your help!
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post #2 of 24 Old 07-14-2012, 06:40 AM
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Forget the book shelves if you do not plan to get a sub.

I would choose the 816V over the Studio 60. The 816 has better bass and better balance overall. I was a Paradigm fan in the past. IMO the latest series are too bright.
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post #3 of 24 Old 07-14-2012, 08:16 PM
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This just goes to show how personal speakers can be.

I just came back from listening to these speakers today.
Listened to the Studio 60s, the 816v's, and the Imagine T.

I bought the Studio 60.

To my ear, it was a close call between the Studio and the 816 (Not so much with the PSBs). I chose the 60's because:
1) I thought in certain sections of the music I brought to test (in particular Fleet foxes - Blue ridge mountain), the bass response from the 816s was covering up some of the mid and high detail in a way that wasn't happening with the Studio;
2) I thought the Studio was more open (which is important in my space);
3) Lastly, I preferred the aesthetics - the studio is slightly smaller, with the curved back.

Also listened to Freddie Hubbard - red clay and Massive attack - better things. Interestingly, in those songs, the base from the 816s didn't seem to cover any detail. Of course in the massive attack song, there is only but so much detail. The 816s produce great bass. For me though, the bass was still great in the 60s and none of the detail was lost in any of my music.

FYI - I am upgrading from Klipsch speakers and use shure se425 headphones. That may help ground my sound prefs a little.

Ultimately, I think that is a hard call and worth going to listen to. That said, both sounded great and you won't be disappointed either way

My two cents.
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post #4 of 24 Old 07-14-2012, 11:55 PM
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Studio 60 were good... not sure I'd spend the money on them as the PSB Imagine T are the best speaker in that price I've heard yet and their a bit cheaper at $1800(gloss white). Honestly I don't think you can go wrong with either Paradigm or Focal, whatever one you pick you'll be happy, these are great speakers.
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post #5 of 24 Old 07-15-2012, 12:30 AM
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I would prefer the Focals slightly more then the Paradigms. I think the highs are a smoother and more refined. Ive heard the Studio 20s and the 807s, to me the studios are good speakers, but the highs thru the mids werent as open and airy as Im used to with my Dynaudios. I also found the bass a litle loose, and not as tight as Im used to. So Id say the Focals in a slight edge. I just heard the Imagines that were mentioned, and while the highs and mids were good, I felt they lacked bass, my X16s produce more bass.

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post #6 of 24 Old 07-15-2012, 09:18 AM
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BTW - Came across this and thought this might clarify my comments. This review describes exactly what I heard (and didn't like) with the 816v. It also indicates that they believe it could be a problem with the copy I heard and not the line overall. In any event, that may be good to know as you look at speakers.


http://smarthouse.com.au/Reviews/Real_Hi_Fi/H3T8J4X4?page=4
"Sound Quality

Clearly intended for positioning well clear of walls to avoid undue bass emphasis, the 816 V is an engaging and lively performer. It has a notably clean, powerful and punchy bass, and a crisp, clean top end. However, the sound does lack overall smoothness and evenness.

The level of coloration, especially in the upper bass and lower midband, proved intrusive with our initial samples, thickening the sound and contributing obvious chestiness to male speech. A replacement, well-run-in pair proved altogether more satisfactory, reducing coloration to much more acceptable levels and helping to reveal the fine dynamic expression that is perhaps this speaker's greatest strength.
The overall character still errs on the warm and rich side of neutrality, bringing a richness and fullness to large-scale orchestral recordings. It delivers realistic instrumental textures, which endows dance music with good power and drive.

The question of sample consistency raises its head here, as the second pair clearly sounded and measured much better than the first. Within the time frame allowed for this review, it's clearly impossible to establish whether this is down to differences in manufacturing consistency or running in time, but one should perhaps give Focal the benefit of the doubt, while adding a note of caution."
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post #7 of 24 Old 07-15-2012, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Music I am currently really into at the moment:

The Sundays
Veruca Salt
Alice in Chains
Ke$ha
Filter



I'm into a lot of stuff--really, so I would likely want a speaker that has a near flat response but can sound like you are there in the studio with the band.

The reason I want to forego the subwoofer is I don't have the room for it, and I have heard decent bass to fill a small room come from cheaper and similar sized speakers.

I need something that can have detail in low to medium volumes, not just when cranked up. Something that's somewhat easy to drive, that won't overload my Harmon Kardon AVR 1650 receiver.

If I heard decent bass in a $300 speaker set from Cambridge Audio, I have to assume I would get better bass with Focals or Paradigms that are 3x more expensive.

I would say music would be 60% and Blu-ray movies/concerts to be 40% of my speaker use.

I will be heading to the store to demo tomorrow. I loaded my iPhone with songs I enjoy but haven't really heard too much of (unfamiliar material for the most part). Will this be better than just using my favorite songs I've heard over and over, that I would probably enjoy even in awful speakers?

I think I forgot to ask, but how is the off axis response of the Studio 10v5 compare to the 807V and how does the off axis response compare between the 816V and the Studio 60? I would like something with a good response without having to be in the "sweet spot" or center.
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post #8 of 24 Old 07-15-2012, 09:52 PM
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I mostly compared the sweet spots, so can't provide too much info, but the paradigms presented a pretty wide stage.

I would burn a cd, lossless files if possible. the more you know the music the better. I brought 5 songs - one with good vocals, one with intricate electronic baselines, one song with intricate guitar, one jazz track, and one basic electronic. Basically, I wanted to here them across genres.

demo them and go with what you like best.
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post #9 of 24 Old 07-16-2012, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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So I finally got the chance to visit this Premiere Audio store, and it's very classy and exotic/expensive looking. Decor and the speakers were fancy and plentiful. Initially the salesman was kind of rude to me since he didn't expect me to pay for anything, the fact I look like I'm 16 years old with longish hair, and because I looked "too" casual and looked somewhat desecrate. Good news is he warmed up to me later on while I was testing both the Focals and Paradigms.

I listened to a couple of CD quality audio using their Marantz amplifier with special speaker wire that apparently cost $250 per foot:eek:

They didn't have any Focal 807s or 806s, so I had to listen to the 706V. I honestly couldn't really tell the difference between the two, though I think maybe the Studio 10s were just extremely slightly better for male vocals. I got chills when listening to the salesman's Jennifer Warren CD, and the guy stepped in. Didn't bother to listen to the floorstanders, and may do so in a few weeks.

My LAME 3.98 encoded songs like Cranberries and Belly sounded pretty awful on both speakers which surprised me quite a bit. I LOVE the Cranberries and so I was worried. This was the first 2 songs I tested on the Studio 10's.

Again, couldn't tell the difference and the guy said the 806s sound slightly better than the 706s, and called it an "evolution".

So I purchased (didn't leave with them) a pair of store demo, Paradigm Studio 10v5s in rosenut (maybe a dozen hours on them) for $997.50 (tax included). It was normally listed at $1198 for a new pair but I decided to save the $200 since this demo had no damage or any problems with it.

I am still contemplating about going back to the Focals, and see if I can get the piano high gloss black of the 800 series from AudioGon and Canuckaudiomart.com. My only fear is paying a stranger with PayPal and never seeing the speakers delivered to my address. Anyone have any experience with either site?

I see a pair of high gloss 806s and 800 center channel for Focal on AudioGon, and would rather save money and sacrifice "some" style. The black piano finish looks amazing in person!


He also said speaker wire makes a big difference even on these bookshelfs and said he sold $33000 worth of speaker wire that was 25 ft long. He was a nice guy overall --knows his stuff, talked about exotic cars from his clients, to Porsches, to Meridian and all kinds of cool stories cool.gif
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post #10 of 24 Old 07-16-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BestInTheWorld View Post

So I finally got the chance to visit this Premiere Audio store, and it's very classy and exotic/expensive looking....
He also said speaker wire makes a big difference even on these bookshelfs and said he sold $33000 worth of speaker wire that was 25 ft long. He was a nice guy overall --knows his stuff, talked about exotic cars from his clients, to Porsches, to Meridian and all kinds of cool stories cool.gif

He's right about the speaker wire - it will make a huge difference.

In his profits, not in your sound quality.

Sounds like a typical snake-oil salesman, all too common in audio.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #11 of 24 Old 07-16-2012, 06:55 PM
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Have the salesman to let you switch out cheap speaker wires without his knowledge of which ones are being used. Bet he can't distinguish one from the other without knowing which is being used.

Congrats on the purchase.
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post #12 of 24 Old 07-16-2012, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

He's right about the speaker wire - it will make a huge difference.
In his profits, not in your sound quality.
Sounds like a typical snake-oil salesman, all too common in audio.

Well we went to the back of their warehouse where they keep their boxed items, and showed me the inside of a few cables and explained to me why the ones we tested were good. Something about pure copper covered in Teflon, separated by cotton to prevent them from touching one another, and all covered by PVC material.

I mentioned the AVS Forum and that people said wire made no difference. He said "there's some truth to that", but he said it's possible some members could be paid by someone or might have an agenda or certain bias. Actually, I think he said this when i mentioned I read reviews for both Focal and Paradigms and got some help from this forum.

In any case, has any one been shafted by a seller from AudioGon or CanuckAudioMart.com? I am VERY tempted to pull the trigger on 2 items, as I will save close to $500, but I have no idea if I'll get jipped or if the item will become "lost in mail".
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Have the salesman to let you switch out cheap speaker wires without his knowledge of which ones are being used. Bet he can't distinguish one from the other without knowing which is being used.
Congrats on the purchase.

Thanks! Although I must say, I'm not 100% sure if I'll keep the Paradigms or not. IF I can get used a pair of used Focal 806s and the center for cheap, I'll just go with Focal and figure out how to fit the larger 806s to my living room/HT space. Lastly, this particular store sells the 816V for $2199 versus the $2598 that the Studio 60's cost.
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post #13 of 24 Old 07-17-2012, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a question regarding Focal's floor stander, the 816V. This costs almost double the price of the 807V at this store I visited. Will it basically be as good as the 706Vs I auditioned for music??

I absolutely loved the bass of the 706s. Very tight and natural and never boomy-- even when volume was increased. I like the fact the 816s will be smaller (takes up less physical floor sq footage), and the possibility of it being even musically/sonically better.

I'm also wondering about the Studio 60's. Are they worth the $2000+ for a pair, and will it be musically be better than the Studio 10's? I can either get 2 pairs of 10's or get a pair of 10's and the 60's.
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post #14 of 24 Old 07-17-2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BestInTheWorld View Post

I have a question regarding Focal's floor stander, the 816V. This costs almost double the price of the 807V at this store I visited. Will it basically be as good as the 706Vs I auditioned for music??
I absolutely loved the bass of the 706s. Very tight and natural and never boomy-- even when volume was increased. I like the fact the 816s will be smaller (takes up less physical floor sq footage), and the possibility of it being even musically/sonically better.
I'm also wondering about the Studio 60's. Are they worth the $2000+ for a pair, and will it be musically be better than the Studio 10's? I can either get 2 pairs of 10's or get a pair of 10's and the 60's.

If I could make a suggestion, since these speakers are all at the same dealer, sit and listen to them over and over. I went to the place I bought my speakers 4 times, I finally knew what I wanted when I wanted to hear a specific speaker everytime I went. Dont rush buying a speaker that you are just going to want to take back because you arent sure.

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post #15 of 24 Old 07-17-2012, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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If I could make a suggestion, since these speakers are all at the same dealer, sit and listen to them over and over. I went to the place I bought my speakers 4 times, I finally knew what I wanted when I wanted to hear a specific speaker everytime I went. Dont rush buying a speaker that you are just going to want to take back because you arent sure.

Okay, I will do that tomorrow, but the guy seemed impatient and stuff when I was asking questions (which delayed my purchase). I will just go back tomorrow and listen to my music from 4 speakers tomorrow. He will have to do more work moving speakers from one room to the next but I guess it's his job, right?

I just don't know how they will sound in my room, since I don't have a Marantz amp or any separate amp. I just have an AV receiver which I bought to be able to connect speakers to and use the 5.1 channels for Blu-ray. I heard if you underpower speakers they will blow out or get damaged physically (e.g. the tweeters)
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post #16 of 24 Old 07-17-2012, 07:03 PM
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[quote name="BestInTheWorld" url="/t/1420156/
In any case, has any one been shafted by a seller from AudioGon or CanuckAudioMart.com? I am VERY tempted to pull the trigger on 2 items, as I will save close to $500, but I have no idea if I'll get jipped or if the item will become "lost in mail".[/quote]

I have completed maybe 50 transactions on AudiogoN over the last 18-24 months, 50/50 buying and selling and not a single transaction has been less than satisfactory. in fact, most were exceptional.

Here's the key for buying: Get to know your seller. It is that simple. Check feedback, communicate well, very least by email and preferably direct by telephone. Send me a PM if you need more guidance.
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post #17 of 24 Old 07-17-2012, 09:30 PM
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Re: the Studio 60s.

At my dealer in NYC, the Studio 60s and the 816v's were approx the same price. I paid 2K plus tax for the 60's. 816's came in close to that.

I think your choice comes down to sound preference. The money is too close at that point given how much the speakers cost.

That said, I can't wait to pick up my 60's this week.
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post #18 of 24 Old 07-18-2012, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Re: the Studio 60s.
At my dealer in NYC, the Studio 60s and the 816v's were approx the same price. I paid 2K plus tax for the 60's. 816's came in close to that.
I think your choice comes down to sound preference. The money is too close at that point given how much the speakers cost.
That said, I can't wait to pick up my 60's this week.

Yeah, I'm still mulling over which to get. I think I would prefer to have the grilles off for whichever speaker I get and I think it maybe too overpowering with the Studio series. I heard Focals were more suitable for female vocals so I may end up with this. The great thing with the 60's is it is slightly smaller than the 816V's which is something I'm deciding over. Cost is actually less expensive for the Studio's but...

This brings me to my store's refund policy. I paid for half of the speakers on Monday, got a receipt--looked over it today and it says a "restocking fee of 15% is applied, NO REFUNDS, only exchange or credit on new items in resellable condition". Since mine were display models, and still in the store, would this apply for me??

And is it odd this place offers no returns and just offers credit?
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post #19 of 24 Old 07-18-2012, 12:46 PM
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sry double post
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post #20 of 24 Old 07-18-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

Re: the Studio 60s.
At my dealer in NYC, the Studio 60s and the 816v's were approx the same price. I paid 2K plus tax for the 60's. 816's came in close to that.
I think your choice comes down to sound preference. The money is too close at that point given how much the speakers cost.
That said, I can't wait to pick up my 60's this week.

which dealer in NYC ?
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post #21 of 24 Old 07-18-2012, 12:48 PM
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these are questions you had better ask the store BEFORE purchasing ! Asking others now, what good does it do ? Different stores have different policies and they can do whatever they want.
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post #22 of 24 Old 07-18-2012, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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these are questions you had better ask the store BEFORE purchasing ! Asking others now, what good does it do ? Different stores have different policies and they can do whatever they want.

True, lesson learned smile.gif In any case, the good thing is I know I'll be getting something soon here!
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post #23 of 24 Old 07-18-2012, 06:58 PM
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btw - relatively common at NYC dealers to not offer refunds, but only credits.

My place has the same policy, but I knew that going in.
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post #24 of 24 Old 07-19-2012, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, the good news is I have decided to go with the Minx system from Cambridge (for my HT), and just get 2 speakers dedicated to music (2.0) only in a few months. So the $400 I spent on the Paradigms will now be used to get the Minx stands for my speakers and I will get the remaining satellites from Visions Electronics. So it all works out and I am actually glad I am going to with my gut instinct that I have had around 3 weeks ago when I first seen the Minx on display.

Having said that, I think I am making the right decision my going with the Minx for my HT. My room is just too small and will feel super cluttered and messy by going Paradigm for the HT (these speakers will dominate my 10 x 12 room). In any case, I have already decided to get a Marantz amplifier, and getting the Focal 807Vs eventually, but not now.
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