Parasound Amplifiers with B&W 802D - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 85 Old 07-25-2012, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

Oh boy you opened an ugly door here with this comment. Expect to be attacked with
A. What test parameters did you use to choose to buy the amps?
B. You understand you did not actually hear anything different, right?
C. All Amps sound the same. You could hook up a 12v car amp with the same watts out and it would be the same.
D. Did you do octomom-blind testing to see if there was a difference?
Good luck....cool.gif

You may be able to slip this by on the speaker threads, not possible in the amp threads.

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post #62 of 85 Old 07-25-2012, 07:40 AM
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Which part, all amps sound the same? Or the testing methodology he should have used to buy the amps?

Life is enjoyable with good quality
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post #63 of 85 Old 07-25-2012, 08:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

So after listening to Salon2, KEF 201/2, Orion3, Phil3, and M1 (all at 90dB), the 802D sounded just as clear even at much, much lower volume.
They should. They use very high quality drive units. That was never the "problem" with such designs. It's what happens when you put them and their inherent polar response in real living rooms (not showrooms, not conference rooms, etc.), with reflections....which all contribute to the soundfield and your perception (along with vision, memory, etc, etc.).
I suppose you're about to find out. smile.gif

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post #64 of 85 Old 07-25-2012, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

Which part, all amps sound the same? Or the testing methodology he should have used to buy the amps?

Sorry, quoted wrong comments. Meant hearing a difference.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #65 of 85 Old 07-25-2012, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

Oh boy you opened an ugly door here with this comment. Expect to be attacked with
A. What test parameters did you use to choose to buy the amps?
B. You understand you did not actually hear anything different, right?
C. All Amps sound the same. You could hook up a 12v car amp with the same watts out and it would be the same.
D. Did you do octomom-blind testing to see if there was a difference?
Good luck....cool.gif

You may be able to slip this by on the speaker threads, not possible in the amp threads.

maybe because there's actual differences in speakers when driven within spec... wink.gif

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post #66 of 85 Old 07-25-2012, 11:00 AM
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As long as the OP is happy. Parasound makes great amps.

My B&W dealer told me yesterday that the 802D need to at least be bi-wired if not bi-amped. Huge significant difference. Day and night. Improve punch of bass, clarity of midrange, and smoothness of treble.
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post #67 of 85 Old 07-25-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

They should. They use very high quality drive units. That was never the "problem" with such designs. It's what happens when you put them and their inherent polar response in real living rooms (not showrooms, not conference rooms, etc.), with reflections....which all contribute to the soundfield and your perception (along with vision, memory, etc, etc.).
I suppose you're about to find out. smile.gif
cheers,
AJ

^ This. I still cannot believe he bought a pair. They don't touch his other speakers sound quality wise; my opinion, of course.

Regarding amps: If someone says they hear a difference in amps so what? And if they say they don't , who cares? The important thing is their happiness. Whether it takes $150 or $10,000 for them to attain that is moot. Let's just be happy for them. The problems arise when folks go around stating "all amps sound the same," or "it is easy to tell the difference between amps" in a factual manner. This is a subjective hobby, so just subject yourself, share your opinions with others and enjoy.

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post #68 of 85 Old 07-25-2012, 02:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I still cannot believe he bought a pair.
I can. They don't call it audioholism for nothing. The estate sale after the divorce is gonna be sweet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

They don't touch his other speakers sound quality wise; my opinion, of course.
That will depend heavily on his room, his audio priorities and of course, his opinion...the only one that matters. Did I mention they look way cool? Not that this is a factor....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

The problems arise when folks go around stating "all amps sound the same," or "it is easy to tell the difference between amps" in a factual manner.
Actually, only one group makes both those statements. The Dunning-Kruger strawmen. So there is no dichotomy with those statements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

This is a subjective hobby, so just subject yourself, share your opinions with others and enjoy.
Absolutely. Unfortunately precious few know what subjectivity and subjectivism actually is, especially those who identify themselves as such.

cheers,

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post #69 of 85 Old 07-25-2012, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I still cannot believe he bought a pair. They don't touch his other speakers sound quality wise; my opinion, of course.

Regarding amps...who cares? The important thing is their happiness. Whether it takes $150 or $10,000 for them to attain that is moot. Let's just be happy for them.

Isn't it the same with speakers as it is with amps?

The important thing is their happiness? Let's just be happy for them? biggrin.gif
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post #70 of 85 Old 07-26-2012, 05:55 AM
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I have heard too often that this or that sounds the same. I’m reminded of my father. He spent a lot of money on a sound system awhile ago. He would fire it up now and then, remark about the sound quality. My dad also had a 13 inch TV where we ate dinner. It developed a very high pitch loud squeal. When asked about it, he couldn’t hear it. He then calmly explained the TV sounded as good as his sound system.
So yes, to him all amps, speakers, CD players, cables, everything sounded the same. Would I send him to evaluate and buy my new toys…. No.
So when someone tells me they hear the difference, I usually take it at face value. When they put their money where their hearing is, good for them.
If Swankyguy hears the difference, is happy with the purchase, time for some 18-30-year old scotch and enjoy the music.
Job well done.

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post #71 of 85 Old 07-26-2012, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Isn't it the same with speakers as it is with amps?
The important thing is their happiness? Let's just be happy for them? biggrin.gif

Nope - totally different. LOL Just kidding. biggrin.gif

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post #72 of 85 Old 07-26-2012, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

If Swankyguy hears the difference, is happy with the purchase, time for some 18-30-year old scotch and enjoy the music.
Job well done.

Well, I believe all high quality high power amps sound the same driving the same speakers at the same volume matched to 0.5dB.

Rotel, Parasound, Classe, Krell, Mark Levinson, Lexicon, ATI, Sunfire, Cary Audio, Theta, NAD, McIntosh, Denon, Marantz, etc.

But I think it's cool to buy $20K Krell, Levinson, McIntosh, etc.

I think all high quality cables sound the same too. But if you have the pocket change, $20K cables is cool too. biggrin.gif

But we can still voice our opinions and say, "I disagree with you, but I'm glad you're happy, and I think your gears are really cool". smile.gif
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post #73 of 85 Old 07-26-2012, 06:28 AM
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^Completly agree.

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post #74 of 85 Old 07-26-2012, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Nope - totally different. LOL Just kidding. biggrin.gif

Good news is, I won't be recommending 802D to 90% of people. biggrin.gif

I will be 100% unbiased when I critically compare the 802D to the other speakers.

Why? Because I own other so-called "high-end" speakers; therefore, I must not have any bias. eek.gifbiggrin.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412577/why-pay-5000-for-speakers/360#post_22251560
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post #75 of 85 Old 07-26-2012, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Good news is, I won't be recommending 802D to 90% of people. biggrin.gif
I will be 100% unbiased when I critically compare the 802D to the other speakers.
Why? Because I own other so-called "high-end" speakers; therefore, I must not have any bias. eek.gifbiggrin.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412577/why-pay-5000-for-speakers/360#post_22251560

LOL - not possible. You're bias; we all are. Your opinion of the 802D's won't effect mine, so I am not worried. smile.gif

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post #76 of 85 Old 07-26-2012, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

LOL - not possible. You're bias; we all are. Your opinion of the 802D's won't effect mine, so I am not worried. smile.gif

But......but Turbo said one of his customers had other high-end speakers in his house, so saying this one customer was bias is "incredibly dismissing" or something like that. biggrin.gif

Anyone buying speakers w/o audition is taking a chance.

Everyone has a different opinion. A group of guys with the same opinion is no better than a single opinion. Saying one speaker sounds better than another speaker is pure subjective opinion.

It does not matter if I own 20 speakers. Still just a biased subjective opinion.
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post #77 of 85 Old 07-30-2012, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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The sound is totally different. It feels like the Amps are now pushing the speakers to perform. Earlier they were just not the same. No punch, No beat and the clarity was subdued. I do not think B&W should recommend Rotels with 802D at all. They would really kill the speakers performance at every level.
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post #78 of 85 Old 07-30-2012, 07:24 AM
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Parasound Halo is great.

But if I were trying to reason why the JC amps had more "punch" than the Rotel, I would say it is because of the difference in Voltage Gain levels.

The Rotel 1582 amp has a Gain of 26dB. The Parasound has a Gain of 28dB.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

My ATI amps have a gain of 34dB. biggrin.gif

Unless you level match, the amp with the highest gain, like the 34dB gain on my ATI amps, will always have a lot more punch and power.

No wonder I love my ATI amps. eek.gifbiggrin.gif

No wonder Revel recommends ATI, Lexicon, Mark Levinson. 34dB gain.

If you look in the Parasound manual, it says to turn the Gain knob all the way clockwise to the MAX gain level in order to "reach fullest sonic potential".
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post #79 of 85 Old 07-30-2012, 11:23 AM
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I doubt what he is experiencing is related to gain. The ATIs use 34 dB for unbalanced in case they get paired with a less capable AVR in order to be able to get full volume. Their XLRs are 28 dB which is in line with the industry. I can imagine the JC1s could provide better control and dynamics but certainly not expect a night and day difference unless there is something wrong with the Rotel.

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post #80 of 85 Old 07-30-2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I doubt what he is experiencing is related to gain. The ATIs use 34 dB for unbalanced in case they get paired with a less capable AVR in order to be able to get full volume. Their XLRs are 28 dB which is in line with the industry. I can imagine the JC1s could provide better control and dynamics but certainly not expect a night and day difference unless there is something wrong with the Rotel.

The Rotel has a 26dB gain balanced and unbalanced.

The Parasound has a 28dB gain balanced and unbalanced.

The ATI is 28dB balanced and 34dB unbalanced.

So a 2 dB gain difference has no chance of affecting the sound between the Rotel and the Parasound?

And if people use the unbalanced connectors of the Parasound vs Rotel vs ATI, is there a significant difference in volume if they don't level match?

Anyway, the OP loves the Parasound JC. That's good. We're just a little bored so we're debating a little about amp gain. biggrin.gif
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post #81 of 85 Old 07-30-2012, 04:17 PM
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I was just guessing that the OP swapped out amps and did not try doing any AB comparisons, of course I could be wrong. If I swap out or install an amp I don't assume that levels will be matched for the same volume setting, I just turn it down and then bring back up the volume and if warranted check the level meter. I would now be interested in how the OP did do the evaluation. I know the JC1s can drive the Blades and many others have come up short so I know they could handle the 802s. I am surprised that the Rotel is coming up so short, still wonder if there is not something wrong with it. What model Rotel, WPC?

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #82 of 85 Old 07-30-2012, 07:56 PM
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tl dr

OP - move the speakers around your room, aim for many many feet from the back and side wall and try again

add a decent sub

Its unlikely you will have any gain from an amp and your issues are from the room itself.

Im not bashing big amps, just saying you should already be able to wreck your ears with what you have and a different amp wont make them have MOAR PUNCH.

If you will post your room dimensions we can recommend some placement and seating options to maximize your setup.

REW...most expensive freeware ever...

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post #83 of 85 Old 07-31-2012, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I was just guessing that the OP swapped out amps and did not try doing any AB comparisons, of course I could be wrong. If I swap out or install an amp I don't assume that levels will be matched for the same volume setting, I just turn it down and then bring back up the volume and if warranted check the level meter. I would now be interested in how the OP did do the evaluation. I know the JC1s can drive the Blades and many others have come up short so I know they could handle the 802s. I am surprised that the Rotel is coming up so short, still wonder if there is not something wrong with it. What model Rotel, WPC?

Well, I would love to own the Parasound Halo JC monoblocks.

Bryston, Parasound Halo, Classe, Krell, Cary Audio, Theta Digital, Mark Levinson, Lexicon, ATI - I could live with them. biggrin.gif
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post #84 of 85 Old 08-02-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I have both plus a few others.  Change is always possible but nothing yet.

Cool, thanks

Off topic question, I see Kal responded to my question days ago but I did not receive an e-mail indicating that posts have continued to be made to this thread. I am subscribed with Immediate notification and yet nothing. I checked numerous other threads I am subscribed to and noticed the exact same thing. Is this some defect of the new forum software or do I need to do something on my part to get instant notifications working again?

Thanks

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post #85 of 85 Old 08-03-2012, 12:32 PM
 
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Can't answer that, but I can say I recently added a Halo A21 to my system, replacing an Emotiva XPA-3. I did get gains in sound quality and a slightly warmer sound than the somewhat bright Emo amp. The Parasound reveals more detail to the music as well with a better soundstage. But for 700, the Emo was pretty decent. I'll be selling it soon because I have no regrets whatsoever. One day I will add A Parasound pre amp too.
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