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post #1 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 03:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I am using Rotel with B&W 802D and am not liking the punch of the speakers. I have been recommended Parasound JC1 Pre-Amp and JC2 Mono Block Amps (400W per channel). Can someone tell me how are these amplifiers to work with B&W 802D ? Thanks.
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post #2 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swankyguy View Post

I am using Rotel with B&W 802D and am not liking the punch of the speakers. I have been recommended Parasound JC1 Pre-Amp and JC2 Mono Block Amps (400W per channel). Can someone tell me how are these amplifiers to work with B&W 802D ? Thanks.


They will work the same as your Rotel. Although I am not of the mindset that "all amps sound the same", I do, however, think that moving from Rotel amps to Parasound amps would be a lateral move.
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post #3 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 08:03 AM
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For that kind of money, you can buy MUCH better-sounding equipment than that.

An Audio Research LS-17 ($4000) is a MUCH better preamp than anything Parasound makes and while the Parasound amplifiers are very good, you can buy the Bryston 4B-SST for around $6000, and it is at least as good-sounding, probably a bit better.

The Ayre K5xe ($3500) is also a much better preamp than any of the Parasound preamps.

Actually, the Bryston 3B-SST2 is only $4500, and at 250 watts per channel into 4 ohms has way more power than your speakers need for "punch" galore. I would recommend it.

Your speakers, by the way have a 4 ohm impedance from 70 Hz to 700 Hz, so you definitely need to look at the 4 ohm power rating of amplifiers. See the Stereophile review for the impedance vs frequency curve.

I am using the AR LS-27 and the Bryston 3B-SST2, and the sound is to die for. I was watching The Red Baron last night, and the sound of the aircraft engines was hitting my guts like my old days in the pits at the drag strip; now THAT is PUNCH!!!

With either of those preamps and the Bryston 3B, you will have way way better sound quality, and enough PUNCH to knock you off your feet...lol.





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Originally Posted by Swankyguy View Post

I am using Rotel with B&W 802D and am not liking the punch of the speakers. I have been recommended Parasound JC1 Pre-Amp and JC2 Mono Block Amps (400W per channel). Can someone tell me how are these amplifiers to work with B&W 802D ? Thanks.
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post #4 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

For that kind of money, you can buy MUCH better-sounding equipment than that.
An Audio Research LS-17 ($4000) is a MUCH better preamp than anything Parasound makes and while the Parasound amplifiers are very good, you can buy the Bryston 4B-SST for around $6000, and it is at least as good-sounding, probably a bit better.
The Ayre K5xe ($3500) is also a much better preamp than any of the Parasound preamps.

And you can prove this....how? By your 100% pure subjective opinion, which everyone has? biggrin.gif

I guess those double-blinded studies conducted by engineers and PhD audiophiles with many years experience proving that people can't tell a significant difference among amps don't mean anything, but your 100% pure subjective non-level matched non-blinded opinions are fact? biggrin.gif

Why don't we compare the specs and measurements of these electronics and objectively see which are really better. Unless you think objective measurements don't mean anything and your 100% pure subjective opinion, which everyone has, means everything? biggrin.gif

Oh, yeah, I forgot the rules. If I own it, it must be better than everyone else - damn the objective measurements and double-blinded studies. eek.gif
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post #5 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

They will work the same as your Rotel. Although I am not of the mindset that "all amps sound the same", I do, however, think that moving from Rotel amps to Parasound amps would be a lateral move.

I agree 100%.

I was at my B&W dealer. They had a 200wpc Rotel system hooked to the 802D and a 300wpc Classe system hooked to the 800D.

The Classe, which is a lot more expensive than the Rotel, had this hiss noise coming through the 800D, while the much cheaper Rotel was silent.

More expensive doesn't mean anything.

Of course, I didn't mean to say the Rotel is better than the Classe or any other high quality amp, hiss or no hiss.
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post #6 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 11:49 AM
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You just don't get it. You are confusing me with someone who cares what you think of my opinions.

I have no intention of trying to "prove" anything, especially to people who will argue all day about what is wrong or right or valid or invalid but won't actually take the trouble go out and LISTEN to music and draw some conclusions about what equipment does or does not sound best.

I have spent hundreds of hours listening to equipment in my home and in other locations, including recording studios and an audio store owned by a friend. I clearly hear differences in sound quality and do not require some nonsense test routine to tell me what I hear. My ears work pretty well, and I use them.

I am quite sure that if your car was dirty and I said so, you would want a 10-person panel to do a double-blind test to decide if it was true. I just rely on my eyes and my ears, and they seem to tell the truth. That has been my experience, and I value it.

I have formed opinions, and I express them. If you don't care for my opinions, that's fine.

If someone wants to take my opinions into account, that is up to them.



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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

And you can prove this....how? By your 100% pure subjective opinion, which everyone has? biggrin.gif
I guess those double-blinded studies conducted by engineers and PhD audiophiles with many years experience proving that people can't tell a significant difference among amps don't mean anything, but your 100% pure subjective non-level matched non-blinded opinions are fact? biggrin.gif
Why don't we compare the specs and measurements of these electronics and objectively see which are really better. Unless you think objective measurements don't mean anything and your 100% pure subjective opinion, which everyone has, means everything? biggrin.gif
Oh, yeah, I forgot the rules. If I own it, it must be better than everyone else - damn the objective measurements and double-blinded studies. eek.gif
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post #7 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

And you can prove this....how? By your 100% pure subjective opinion, which everyone has? biggrin.gif
I guess those double-blinded studies conducted by engineers and PhD audiophiles with many years experience proving that people can't tell a significant difference among amps don't mean anything, but your 100% pure subjective non-level matched non-blinded opinions are fact? biggrin.gif
Why don't we compare the specs and measurements of these electronics and objectively see which are really better. Unless you think objective measurements don't mean anything and your 100% pure subjective opinion, which everyone has, means everything? biggrin.gif
Oh, yeah, I forgot the rules. If I own it, it must be better than everyone else - damn the objective measurements and double-blinded studies. eek.gif

Amen....

The Richard Clark challenge really opened my eyes to the world of snake oil amplifier marketing.....
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post #8 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Swankyguy View Post

I am using Rotel with B&W 802D and am not liking the punch of the speakers. I have been recommended Parasound JC1 Pre-Amp and JC2 Mono Block Amps (400W per channel). Can someone tell me how are these amplifiers to work with B&W 802D ? Thanks.

They will work great! Feed all the juice you can to those 802D's. In my opinion the proper amount of power is more important than which high end brand name.

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post #9 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

...My ears work pretty well, and I use them.
...

Do you also use your brain when you listen? Of course you do.

Are you aware of the unconscious biases that your brain holds onto ? Of course you aren't.

Do you even acknowledge these biases exist? Of course you don't.

Do you do these listening sessions with amplifier levels matched? I doubt it.

Do you use your brain when you make all these repetitive, silly posts? That is up for debate.

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post #10 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

For that kind of money, you can buy MUCH better-sounding equipment than that.
An Audio Research LS-17 ($4000) is a MUCH better preamp than anything Parasound makes and while the Parasound amplifiers are very good, you can buy the Bryston 4B-SST for around $6000, and it is at least as good-sounding, probably a bit better.
The Ayre K5xe ($3500) is also a much better preamp than any of the Parasound preamps.
Actually, the Bryston 3B-SST2 is only $4500, and at 250 watts per channel into 4 ohms has way more power than your speakers need for "punch" galore. I would recommend it.
Your speakers, by the way have a 4 ohm impedance from 70 Hz to 700 Hz, so you definitely need to look at the 4 ohm power rating of amplifiers. See the Stereophile review for the impedance vs frequency curve.
I am using the AR LS-27 and the Bryston 3B-SST2, and the sound is to die for. I was watching The Red Baron last night, and the sound of the aircraft engines was hitting my guts like my old days in the pits at the drag strip; now THAT is PUNCH!!!
With either of those preamps and the Bryston 3B, you will have way way better sound quality, and enough PUNCH to knock you off your feet...lol.

Commsysman, don't you wonder why you seem to get in these same arguments on every thread you post? With pretty much every other member of this forum? It is because you consistently state your opinion as fact.

Look, on another thread you just posted a reference to the Kef Q900 being measured as low as 4 ohms by Stereophile, even though it is rated as an 8 ohm speaker. You advised the OP in that thread to get an amp capable of handling a 4 ohm speaker. That is excellent advice and is far different than the post I quoted on this thread where you throw out generalizations about one company vs. another and state your listening experience/preferences as fact. What sounds better to you may not to someone else. You also state it with so MUCH FERVOR that it almost forces the rest of us to dispute you instead of letting the OP read what you post and take it as gospel. If you have an opinion, by all means share it, but don't pretend it is any more valid than someone else's opionion, and don't pretend it is fact.

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post #11 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 01:06 PM
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Standing ovation!

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post #12 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 01:07 PM
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I haven't heard the JC1 or JC2 but they get stellar reviews. The JC1's put out 400wpc into 8ohms and 800wpc into 4ohms and the first 25 watts is pure class A. I'm sure they would drive the 802's with aplomb. The only caveat I would add would be that Parasound can sometimes sound a bit lean and you may want to look at a tube preamp. This is based on my experience with a Parasound A21, A23's and a Parasound 2100 preamp. This is probably just my preference though as I really like what a good tube preamp does for my music.

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post #13 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 02:37 PM
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Plenty of power to run those 802's. Also check out Audiogon they have a Bryston 14B SST-2 for sale 600wpc into 8 ohms and 900 into 4 ohms. About $3000 less than the Parasounds and it still has 16 yrs left on the warranty.
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post #14 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Do you also use your brain when you listen? Of course you do.
Are you aware of the unconscious biases that your brain holds onto ? Of course you aren't.
Do you even acknowledge these biases exist? Of course you don't.
Do you do these listening sessions with amplifier levels matched? I doubt it.
Do you use your brain when you make all these repetitive, silly posts? That is up for debate.

Amen.

I just can't believe that in this day and age people are still saying things like "MY amp is significantly better than this other high quality Rotel or Parasound or Sunfire or ATI or any high quality amp". biggrin.gif
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post #15 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 06:33 PM
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If you can return the AMP I would buy a Rotel AMP.
B&W & Rotel have a close relationship with each other. Their speakers should be powered by Rotel AMPS if you want to get the best sound from them.

If you cant return the AMP i would try doing a Bi-Amp.
I took home a pair of B&W CM5s and i wast impressed with the sound i was getting form them (using a class D rotel RMB-1076) So I Bi-Amped the speakers they knocked me on my butt.
And im not kidding. I connected them turned on my test song and I fell back in my chair because they just sounded so much better.

having been installing B&W speakers for five years now i know that you cant under power them, they will sound like trash. give them power!



Good Luck!
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post #16 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 06:56 PM
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Guys, the OP said his 802D lacked that gut-punchy bass. And he doesn't have even one subwoofer with the 802D!

Does anyone here thinks that perhaps a great subwoofer or 2 subs would be more beneficial than changing from a high quality Rotel amp to another amp? eek.gif

I've listened to the 802D 3 times now. They need subwoofers (if you feel that the punchy bass is missing)!

If I get a pair of 802D (I'm in the market BTW), you can bet they will be paired with dual subwoofers! biggrin.gif

Heck, I've listened to the 800D. IMO they lack bass as well. Heck, I think my Salon2 doesn't have enough bass for me, and the Salon2 goes lower with more bass output than the 800D.

He needs subs.
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post #17 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Guys, the OP said his 802D lacked that gut-punchy bass. And he doesn't have even one subwoofer with the 802D!
Does anyone here thinks that perhaps a great subwoofer or 2 subs would be more beneficial than changing from a high quality Rotel amp to another amp? eek.gif
I've listened to the 802D 3 times now. They need subwoofers (if you feel that the punchy bass is missing)!
If I get a pair of 802D (I'm in the market BTW), you can bet they will be paired with dual subwoofers! biggrin.gif
Heck, I've listened to the 800D. IMO they lack bass as well. Heck, I think my Salon2 doesn't have enough bass for me, and the Salon2 goes lower with more bass output than the 800D.
He needs subs.

I am not so sure.  I have had a number of B&Ws in my listening room over the years and, yes, I do have a sub.  However, with proper placement and acoustical attention, I did/do not use the sub with the 802Ds or with the 800Diamonds.  They do like power but work well with many (but not all) amps I tried.  Currently a Parasound A31.  wink.gif

 

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post #18 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 07:07 PM
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@seth...

ummm... interesting... factual, no, but interesting... number 1, the speakers aren't that hard to drive... number 2, simply passively bi-amping them accomplishes, ummm, nothing...

@adtg...

me too... instead of chasing some mythical "synergy" between amplifier and speaker, i'd spend my money on something that will actually accomplish the goal...

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post #19 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

....  They do like power but work well with many (but not all) amps I tried.  Currently a Parasound A31.  wink.gif

Kal

Are you going to do a review of the A31?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #20 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 08:03 PM
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@seth...
ummm... interesting... factual, no, but interesting... number 1, the speakers aren't that hard to drive... number 2, simply passively bi-amping them accomplishes, ummm, nothing...
@adtg...
me too... instead of chasing some mythical "synergy" between amplifier and speaker, i'd spend my money on something that will actually accomplish the goal...

Like high end speaker cables smile.gif
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post #21 of 85 Old 07-17-2012, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I am not so sure.  I have had a number of B&Ws in my listening room over the years and, yes, I do have a sub.  However, with proper placement and acoustical attention, I did/do not use the sub with the 802Ds or with the 800Diamonds.  They do like power but work well with many (but not all) amps I tried.  Currently a Parasound A31.  wink.gif

Kal

Proper placements cannot be argued against. I believe the OP has tried various speaker placements.

Acoustic treatments may have merits for some rooms, but I believe the OP said his room is acoustically sound.

But changing from a Rotel amp to a Parasound or any other amp isn't going to change the character of the bass sound.

Apparently the powers at B&W wholeheartedly believe that Rotel is good enough for their speakers. I would agree.
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post #22 of 85 Old 07-18-2012, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Proper placements cannot be argued against. I believe the OP has tried various speaker placements.
Acoustic treatments may have merits for some rooms, but I believe the OP said his room is acoustically sound.
But changing from a Rotel amp to a Parasound or any other amp isn't going to change the character of the bass sound.
Apparently the powers at B&W wholeheartedly believe that Rotel is good enough for their speakers. I would agree.

OK.  If we assume the OP's room is "acoustically sound" and that he has optimally positioned the speakers, I agree that changing the amp (among sufficiently-powered quality amps) will not significantly change the bass sound.  I was agreeing with you about that.  I was also responding to your argument that subs are required and, while that may be the case for you, it is dependent on the room and one's taste.  I see no need for a sub with the vast majority of stereo material in my room.

 

As for the statement that "Apparently the powers at B&W wholeheartedly believe that Rotel is good enough for their speakers," I have no argument with it but I do note that (1) they do demo the 800 series with Classe amps and (2) they do own Rotel.  So, not a dispute but, also, not a surprise.


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post #23 of 85 Old 07-18-2012, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@seth...
ummm... interesting... factual, no, but interesting... number 1, the speakers aren't that hard to drive... number 2, simply passively bi-amping them accomplishes, ummm, nothing...
@adtg...
me too... instead of chasing some mythical "synergy" between amplifier and speaker, i'd spend my money on something that will actually accomplish the goal...


How can you tell me that bi-amping doesn't help? If the amp is under powering the speakers then yes bi-amping will help.
you will have one channel powering the lows at lets say 100w and a 2nd channel powering the highs at 100w Vs. 100w between the entire speaker.
Are you thinking about bi-wiring? Because that doesn't make a difference.
This synergy isn't a myth, anyone who has installed hundreds of systems will tell you some speakers sound better with different amps.

+dont be a jerk, all you did here was use to many periods and made claims with not facts to back them up. No one likes when others are condescending.
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post #24 of 85 Old 07-18-2012, 04:13 PM
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post #25 of 85 Old 07-18-2012, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth89 View Post



you will have one channel powering the lows at lets say 100w and a 2nd channel powering the highs at 100w Vs. 100w between the entire speaker.

Not a significant difference.  100w+100w (just like a single 200w amp) would be a 3dB difference but, since the power demands on the amp driving the lows is the limiting factor, the effective increasewith such passive biamping is considerably less.  

 

But............................

1.  This is old news.

2.  This is getting off-topic.


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post #26 of 85 Old 07-18-2012, 04:21 PM
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<-- Starts popping popcorn. biggrin.gif

lol... biggrin.gif no, i have learned not to get into taffy pulls with someone who obviously knows more than i do... wink.gif

however, i will admit the temptation is strong... tongue.gif

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post #27 of 85 Old 07-19-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

OK.  If we assume the OP's room is "acoustically sound" and that he has optimally positioned the speakers, I agree that changing the amp (among sufficiently-powered quality amps) will not significantly change the bass sound.  I was agreeing with you about that.  I was also responding to your argument that subs are required and, while that may be the case for you, it is dependent on the room and one's taste.  I see no need for a sub with the vast majority of stereo material in my room.

As for the statement that "Apparently the powers at B&W wholeheartedly believe that Rotel is good enough for their speakers,"
 I have no argument with it but I do note that (1) they do demo the 800 series with Classe amps and (2) they do own Rotel.  So, not a dispute but, also, not a surprise.

Yeah, I noticed my dealer paired the 800D + 300wpc Classe & 802D + 250wpc Rotel. biggrin.gif

What do you think of the hissing noise coming from the tweeter? I noticed the Classe + 800D had the hissing noise from 2ft away. But the Rotel + 802D did not have any hissing noise.
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post #28 of 85 Old 07-19-2012, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Seth89 View Post

How can you tell me that bi-amping doesn't help?
Theoretically, bi-amping should help. And active bi-amping w/ active crossover should help a lot more than passive bi-amping (which is what you recommended). Theoretically.

I mean theoretically even bi-wiring should help.

But in real life, many of us don't hear any benefits at all, especially from passive bi-amping.

I've never noticed any difference. But that is just me.
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post #29 of 85 Old 07-19-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Theoretically, bi-amping should help. And active bi-amping w/ active crossover should help a lot more than passive bi-amping (which is what you recommended). Theoretically.
I mean theoretically even bi-wiring should help.
But in real life, many of us don't hear any benefits at all, especially from passive bi-amping.
I've never noticed any difference.

I bi-amped one time and, when level matched, did not notice any distinguishable difference. I have not ever had the inclination to do it again.

But there are people that will swear up and down that buying expensive audio cables resulted in their system sounding 100% better too....
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post #30 of 85 Old 07-19-2012, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I bi-amped one time and, when level matched, did not notice any distinguishable difference. I have not ever had the inclination to do it again.
But there are people that will swear up and down that buying expensive audio cables resulted in their system sounding 100% better too....

They are just wrong. biggrin.gif

Cost of bi-amping and bi-wiring outweighs the benefits.

This reminds me of a speaker manual I read regarding bi-amping. It said bi-amping will allow you that extra 1% in performance. biggrin.gif

Who is going to notice a 1% improvement? biggrin.gif
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