$5K Budget for A/V Receiver and 5.1 Speakers/Sub – Thoughts? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 10:24 AM
 
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As ack_bk commented, I hate to say it, but with the TV cut-out right next to offsetting doors, I'd vote for a whole new room as where do you put the L/R speakers? And the whole room is going need a furniture makeover to accommodate theater style viewing.

Has the wife set a furniture budget yet? eek.gif
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post #62 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

How about this...
Front mains in the front corners and subs in the rear corners behind the couch. MBM maybe behind the center of the couch if he ended up going the HSU route... Don't know why whoever designed that room felt the need to put two closets next to the TV cutout? To make it symmetrical maybe?

Corners of rooms is not the best place to put speakers. Walls are reflection points and affect the way the speakers sound. Ideally you want about 2-4 feet to play with here. Which means pulling them away from the walls would put them right where those doors are.

Any change you could talk your friend into switching the room around? Otherwise you really need to be-careful what types of speakers you buy. You are going to want something that is not rear ported and has good linear response, because you are not going to have ideal placement putting speakers in each corner of the room.
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post #63 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 10:51 AM
 
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By the time this is done, this guy is going wish he simply went out and bought himself a bass boat. tongue.gif
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post #64 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

By the time this is done, this guy is going wish he simply went out and bought himself a bass boat. tongue.gif

Haha.

I think it would be worse if he spent $5K on HT gear and did not address the 800lb gorilla in the room...
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post #65 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 11:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I think it would be worse if he spent $5K on HT gear and did not address the 800lb gorilla in the room...

Which one, furniture placement, speaker placement or all the reflective surfaces? tongue.gif
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post #66 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpino View Post

Ok here is my opinion on what he can do for $5000 and get his money's worth.
Receiver: Denon 4311 $1,500
Speakers: Infinity Primus 163 $139 x 9 = $1,251
Subs: HSU VTF-2 MK4 $519 x 4 = $ 2,076

Total: $4,827
The Denon will give you all the features he will need including room correction in XT32 and the ability to do height speakers. Properly placed height speakers can be beneficial to give the listener a larger front stage.
The Infinity Primus 163's will give you clear detailed dialog and effects as well as a very wide dispersion. They won't go down very low but that's not their job. Also getting 7 identical speakers is always optimum any way you look at it.
The 4 HSU VTF-2 MK4 will give you more even bass as well as smoother bass throughout your entire room. This is also the optimum number of subs one can have. They should be placed in 4 corners for maximum output.
Many suggestions only include 1 sub. BIG BIG mistake at least get 2.
Many suggestions are to get towers. Also a big mistake because then you have problems finding a good matching center, which is the most important speaker in any system that will be used for movies.
The sound you get will be determined by your room anyways so don't worry on not having expensive gear. Use what you have and the key to good sound is proper setup, proper speaker placement and decent room correction. Maybe in the future you can worry about your room (where it matters most) and get some treatments.
Best Regards,
Ivan

I agree with your logic and appreciate your input! This actually sounds killer! Maybe with a PC351 as a center channel though otherwise there would be a lot of space (maybe too much?) between the front sound stage. Love the idea of incorporating heights into the equation though. Hey can you wall or ceiling mount the 163’s?
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

As ack_bk commented, I hate to say it, but with the TV cut-out right next to offsetting doors, I'd vote for a whole new room as where do you put the L/R speakers? And the whole room is going need a furniture makeover to accommodate theater style viewing.
Has the wife set a furniture budget yet? eek.gif

Haha… I agree, but I don’t want to get into trouble and tell him to start from scratch…lol. His budget would jump from $5K to $8-10K quick. Now that I have a bit of experience under my belt, when I walk into a situation like this I just kind of shake my head.
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Corners of rooms is not the best place to put speakers. Walls are reflection points and affect the way the speakers sound. Ideally you want about 2-4 feet to play with here. Which means pulling them away from the walls would put them right where those doors are.

Understood and I agree. No matter how you cut it those damn closets are going to get in the way. If it were up to me and it was in his budget those closets would be converted to a Bass Line array and he would have a MASSIVE Scope screen covering that entire wall…lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Any change you could talk your friend into switching the room around? Otherwise you really need to be-careful what types of speakers you buy. You are going to want something that is not rear ported and has good linear response, because you are not going to have ideal placement putting speakers in each corner of the room.

Not sure how receptive he will be to this, but I will run it by him. I’m sure it will all depend on the labor involved of running cables and switching things up. Also, I’m not sure how hardcore he wants to get about it. Upfront I know it would turn him off have his “TV Nook” empty and his TV & stand where his back wall currently is…

 

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post #67 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Downsize? I'm not sure what you mean by that term. I've heard the term before, but never on AVS in the context of Home Theater? Downsizing your subs while upgrading your center is a new concept to me as well… To each their own I guess. =)

Downsizing? I know, home theater heresy. tongue.gif

The center channel arrived today and as I'm sure you know, it's a beast. The center channel will better match the sonic characteristics of the L/R floorstanding speakers. And with the center channel having four woofers, the speaker will create a much larger sound field. The truth be known, coming from a two sub speaker system, yes, I can easily be convinced to replace both subs. But my pea size brain is telling me that in truth, I'm doing it for the wow! factor (how much crap can I shake off the wall) as opposed to realistically enhancing the home theater experience. I call it coming to my senses. And if I'm wrong and in fact I've lost my senses, I can always buy a second sub at a later date.
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post #68 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Understood and I agree. No matter how you cut it those damn closets are going to get in the way. If it were up to me and it was in his budget those closets would be converted to a Bass Line array and he would have a MASSIVE Scope screen covering that entire wall…lol
Not sure how receptive he will be to this, but I will run it by him. I’m sure it will all depend on the labor involved of running cables and switching things up. Also, I’m not sure how hardcore he wants to get about it. Upfront I know it would turn him off have his “TV Nook” empty and his TV & stand where his back wall currently is…

Yeah, it is a tough position to be in when it is not your room.. Most people just think you can place a speaker anywhere and it should sound great, so educating your friend is a tough thing to do.

As for labor and costs, depending on where you live it should not be too much. My neighbor hired someone to run in-wall HDMI cables and speaker cables and it was around $400 for his HT room. Although that cost did not include fully patching and painting the drywall. In the end, it was well worth it as his room was now more useable and it allowed him to install a projector and screen vs being stuck with a TV.

For the nook area, you could have some shelves built in there and make it a design piece in the room. You could also have the equipment housed in one of those closets to give the room a clean look and eliminate unwanted noise and lighting.

Seems like if you friend is willing to spend $5K on audio alone, he would be open to dealing with the room first.

Good luck!
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post #69 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I agree with your logic and appreciate your input! This actually sounds killer! Maybe with a PC351 as a center channel though otherwise there would be a lot of space (maybe too much?) between the front sound stage. Love the idea of incorporating heights into the equation though. Hey can you wall or ceiling mount the 163’s?

My advise would be not spend 5k on anything if he plans to leave the TV in that spot. As I mentioned earlier, its all about optimizing what you have first and then spend your money. No need to spend 5k and just ignore the bad layout. If he plans to leave the room as is then his budget should be 1k or less but no more or else its just a waste in my opinion.

Yes I think you can wall mount or ceil mount the 163's. Either will work.
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post #70 of 88 Old 07-25-2012, 12:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Now that I have a bit of experience under my belt, when I walk into a situation like this I just kind of shake my head.

And shake and shake and shake your head......... and then invite the room owner to "Quincy's" for a few whiskey/bourbons before breaking the news. tongue.gif
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post #71 of 88 Old 07-26-2012, 04:54 PM
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Four subs aren't necessary. Two subs would be just fine. Two 18" subs are going to put out more that four 12" ers IMHO. Another nice thing about the Chase subs having the outboard amp is you don't have to have a plug next to the sub and the amp runs cooler. Plus, if the amp goes bad you can use any amp as opposed to having the amp fixed that sits inside the sub's cabinet.

With all those reflective surfaces constant directivity speakers can help. The Chase home theater speakers would work nicely. The SHO-10 has a 90 X 90 degree horn on its driver so it doesn't mater if you place it vertically or horizontally.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #72 of 88 Old 07-26-2012, 05:12 PM
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Here is a SHO-10 on a Center Channel stand, not a great picture, but it is on its side and it sounds amazing.

By the way go to Electronics Expo, I got my 4311 for just under $1000 there. You can on line chat with them and ask tell them you heard they had it under $1000 and they will take care of you. They are also authorized so you get the warranty.

vcrtyf.jpg
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post #73 of 88 Old 07-26-2012, 05:24 PM
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Here is a better picture-

15i487n.jpg
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post #74 of 88 Old 07-26-2012, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a better picture-

Nice room. What are you packing in those huge cabinets flanking your TV?

Man, your center channel looks really "in your face."

 

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post #75 of 88 Old 07-26-2012, 08:49 PM
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Four subs aren't necessary. Two subs would be just fine. Two 18" subs are going to put out more that four 12" ers IMHO.

Four subs aren't necessary but they are better than 2. Four subs are not meant for more output. Most people think the more subs you add the more output and that's not the case. You want 4 subs to even out all the room frequencies and have seat to seat consistency. You will also only use 1/4 of the power from each sub giving you much much more headroom for higher peaks if needed.
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post #76 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ivanpino View Post

Four subs aren't necessary but they are better than 2. Four subs are not meant for more output. Most people think the more subs you add the more output and that's not the case. You want 4 subs to even out all the room frequencies and have seat to seat consistency. You will also only use 1/4 of the power from each sub giving you much much more headroom for higher peaks if needed.
Not true. You will get more output with more subs. But four doesn't necessarily mean better performance than two, especially when it's two 18" subs vs 4 12" subs. There is simply a lot more cone area to work with in an 18" sub to move the air. The HSU's are no slouches by any means, but they can't keep up with an 18" cone. There is no replacement for displacement!

Two 18" subs will give you about the same in room response as four subs there is no huge difference. There is some, but I dont think the small gain is worth the large expenditure. You do get some extra output though, each sub adds about 3 dB. But you are correct about the headroom. They don't have to work as hard to give you the same level as one would have to.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #77 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Nice room. What are you packing in those huge cabinets flanking your TV?
Man, your center channel looks really "in your face."
I believe those are the CHT 18.1 or 18.2. They look the same to me.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #78 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 04:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

I believe those are the CHT 18.1 or 18.2. They look the same to me.

I thought about that after I posted... I had no idea the CHT 18.x cabinets were so HUGE. That could potentially be a deal breaker...

 

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post #79 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I thought about that after I posted... I had no idea the CHT 18.x cabinets were so HUGE. That could potentially be a deal breaker...

They are big. It was a deal breaker for me since my sub had to pass the wife test. The sub I bought is not exactly small (Hsu VTF-15H), and is about as big as I can go.
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The sub I bought is not exactly small (Hsu VTF-15H), and is about as big as I can go.

How do you like that beast? I'm looking at the ULS15 for it's wireless feature so I don't have to drill the wife's floor to run wires. She doesn't like that. tongue.gif Or I'll start with a 12" VTF-3 Mk 4 with it's smaller footprint as it will be out in the open and installed on the receiver wall; no holes in the floor.
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post #81 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 06:23 AM
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How do you like that beast? I'm looking at the ULS15 for it's wireless feature so I don't have to drill the wife's floor to run wires. She doesn't like that. tongue.gif Or I'll start with a 12" VTF-3 Mk 4 with it's smaller footprint as it will be out in the open and installed on the receiver wall; no holes in the floor.

I love it. I am planning on buying a second one. I have a big room, so a second one will help smooth out response.
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post #82 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 08:23 AM
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Not true. You will get more output with more subs. But four doesn't necessarily mean better performance than two, especially when it's two 18" subs vs 4 12" subs. There is simply a lot more cone area to work with in an 18" sub to move the air. The HSU's are no slouches by any means, but they can't keep up with an 18" cone. There is no replacement for displacement!
Two 18" subs will give you about the same in room response as four subs there is no huge difference. There is some, but I dont think the small gain is worth the large expenditure. You do get some extra output though, each sub adds about 3 dB. But you are correct about the headroom. They don't have to work as hard to give you the same level as one would have to.


Yes you get a 3db boost each time you add a sub but how does that matter when all four subs will act as 1 sub and be calibrated at 75db. You simply get better bass from multiple subs. I'm sure 2 18" subs move a lot of air but can they output better bass than 4 12" subs? In my experience and opinion no.
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post #83 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 09:41 AM
 
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Okay, anything more than two 12" subs in a medium size room and you're bragging. eek.gif

Come on people, 9.2 and 11.2 systems are being pushed now. Is this about how many subs and speakers a man can stack in their room before the wife commits them or what?

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post #84 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpino View Post

Yes you get a 3db boost each time you add a sub but how does that matter when all four subs will act as 1 sub and be calibrated at 75db. You simply get better bass from multiple subs. I'm sure 2 18" subs move a lot of air but can they output better bass than 4 12" subs? In my experience and opinion no.
The 18"ers will put out a ton more than 4 12" subs. Plus they will dig lower and with more authority. Just to give you an idea of the relationship of increasing surface are to cone size a 5" driver has a surface area of about 62 in/sq a 10" driver has a surface area of about 246 in/sq or roughly 4X the surface are from doubling the diameter. I can't do the math without a driver in front of me be I would thing that two 18" subs would equal six of the 12's. (If somebody has the numbers please feel free to provide them).

But suffice it to say that there would be no contest. I'm not dissing the HSU's, they are great subs. But you're trying to equate two different animals. The CHT's are in an entirely different league. With the HSU's you will get that nice rumbling feel in your belly. The CHT's will liquefy your insides.tongue.gif

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #85 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Okay, anything more than two 12" subs in a medium size room and you're bragging. eek.gif
Come on people, 9.2 and 11.2 systems are being pushed now. Is this about how many subs and speakers a man can stack in their room before the wife commits them or what?
eek.giftongue.gifeek.gif
You obviously haven't seen notnyt's setup!biggrin.gif

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #86 of 88 Old 07-27-2012, 01:31 PM
 
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You obviously haven't seen notnyt's setup!biggrin.gif

I agree, no, I haven't and the last thing I need is encouragement. tongue.gif I do try to be good.

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post #87 of 88 Old 07-28-2012, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Nice room. What are you packing in those huge cabinets flanking your TV?
Man, your center channel looks really "in your face."

Thank you, Those are Dual VS-18.1's from Chase, they sound amazing.
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post #88 of 88 Old 07-30-2012, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you, Those are Dual VS-18.1's from Chase, they sound amazing.

Speaking of Chase... I found this thread which has a signifigant list of reference capabable speakers and the SHO-10's are way up there from a price/performance perspective! It's looking like those are the most "capable" speakers that have been mentioned in our disucssion on this thread.

Too bad they are monitors vs. floorstanders. I might be able to talk him into rewiring his entire room to accomodate if he decides that performance will be the deciding factor vs. looks.

 

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