First time HT system, please tell me if this is a good buy/setup - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 07-18-2012, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Just got an opportunity to get a KEF T305 ( http://www.kef.com/html/us/showroom/home_theatre_speakers/tseries/fact_sheets/systems/t305/index.html ) speaker system for $1,500 and am very tempted to grab it, especially after all the great reviews I've read.

Anyway, this will be my first true surround setup (currently have a Sony soundbar) and I'm planning on pairing these with either a Denon AVR-2313CI or AVR-3313CI receiver.

Any thoughts or recommendations?


Thanks very much in advance. smile.gif
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post #2 of 25 Old 07-18-2012, 09:15 PM
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Quite an interesting looking system. The speakers are paper thin, and it seems even the sub wants to be anorexic; it's only 7" deep?!

The sub will probably be on the weak side, but depending upon what you plan to use the system for -- HT, music, etc. -- and how big the room is it might work for you.

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post #3 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply, JimWilson. According to the reviews I read ( http://www.hometheater.com/content/kef-t305-speaker-system ), the sub is very impressive for its size and does an excellent job both for movies and music.

Are there no owners out there that can give us some insight as to how it sounds?
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post #4 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 08:31 AM
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Personally, I feel strongly that you need front speakers that go down to at least 50 Hz for good system bass, and those T301 speakers only go down to about 100 Hz. I would not recommend that. The subwoofer is also not very capable; it is not a true subwoofer. The review I just read online (soundandvisionmag.com) says that it has no output below 40 Hz and will distort badly if driven hard at all; not what anyone wants from a subwoofer.

Lots of people here seem to think it is OK to have only the subwoofer supplying all of the sound (monaural) up to 80 Hz, but that sounds terrible to me. I think that the mid-bass, down to 50 Hz, needs to be STEREO! Otherwise the sound picture is very flat and lacks definition. That is HIS statement, not mine.

To make matters even worse, the reviewer who wrote the above article says that with this system the subwoofer needs to be set to go all the way up to 120 Hz, because the main speakers are unable to reproduce 80 Hz; they only go down to about 100 hz.

I personally think you will be very disappointed in that system if you buy it; it is not very good and WAY overpriced IMO.

A KEF system based on a pair of iQ30 speakers in the front, a C6 LCR speaker in the center, and C3 speakers for the rear would cost $950, and that would leave $500 to buy a Rythmic FV12 subwoofer, which is an excellent one; much much better than the one in that package system.

The Klipsch RW12 is another very good subwooofer for under $500.

That would be a system that will sound far superior in every respect IMO.

Check the KEF Direct website for further information and specs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbeas View Post

Just got an opportunity to get a KEF T305 ( http://www.kef.com/html/us/showroom/home_theatre_speakers/tseries/fact_sheets/systems/t305/index.html ) speaker system for $1,500 and am very tempted to grab it, especially after all the great reviews I've read.
Anyway, this will be my first true surround setup (currently have a Sony soundbar) and I'm planning on pairing these with either a Denon AVR-2313CI or AVR-3313CI receiver.
Any thoughts or recommendations?
Thanks very much in advance. smile.gif
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post #5 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 08:43 AM
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Just so the OP does not get bad information:
http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/
Quote:
A better and more practical approach came after studying human perception. The mechanisms that we use to determine the direction of arrival of sound depend on the frequency. At high frequencies the wavelength of sound is small and so sound coming from the side is shadowed by our head. That creates a level difference between the sound reaching the ear closest to the source and the ear on the other side. Our brain analyzes these level differences and produces an estimate of where the sound is coming from. But at lower frequencies, the wavelength of sound gets longer and our head is not large enough to produce a level difference at the two ears. Instead, we analyze the difference in time of arrival of sound at the two ears. Sound arrives first at the closest ear and we use that to determine the direction. But even that ability fails us below about 80 Hz. The wavelengths get very large and it was found in listening tests that 80 Hz is the frequency below which most people can not localize the direction of sound.

Taking advantage of this apparent “deficiency” in our hearing was what made home theater practical for millions of homes. Five satellite speakers of reasonable size could now be used because they no longer required large woofers. A subwoofer (or two) can reproduce the lower octaves and it can be placed out of sight since its content is not directional.

But there is also a practical advantage: directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier greatly improves the headroom in the main channels.

In short, it is absolutely fine to crossover speakers at 80hz, since unless you have golden ears, you most likely will not be able to localize the frequencies and it also allows your receiver to provide better headroom to your main speakers.

As for these speakers OP, is there a particular need to get ultra thing speakers? Can you get something larger? Also, can you listen to them before you buy them?

$1500 also buys you a very nice set of speakers.

Also, what size is your room? Is is it open to other rooms?
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post #6 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:07 AM
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The quote given has no scientific basis and is obviously only opinion. I see NO scientific research cited to back it up, and is no doubt the undocumented and highly biased product of some ignorant hack at Audessy, which has its own commercial agenda to push; hardly an unbiased source. This would be thrown out in 2 seconds if submitted for any sort of scientific review by qualified experts. There are at least 5 controversial allegations requiring extensive scientific research to document their validity, and NONE is given, or even attempted. It is nothing but nonsense masquerading as truth.

Furthermore, many many people in this forum have stated repeatedly that they have no problem "localizing" such instruments as string bass and drums operating in the 50-70 Hz region. The prevailing opinion seems to agree with that in these forums.

The OP apparently needs only to look to you to get erroneous information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Just so the OP does not get bad information:
http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/
In short, it is absolutely fine to crossover speakers at 80hz, since unless you have golden ears, you most likely will not be able to localize the frequencies and it also allows your receiver to provide better headroom to your main speakers.
As for these speakers OP, is there a particular need to get ultra thing speakers? Can you get something larger? Also, can you listen to them before you buy them?
$1500 also buys you a very nice set of speakers.
Also, what size is your room? Is is it open to other rooms?
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post #7 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

A KEF system based on a pair of iQ30 speakers in the front, a C6 LCR speaker in the center, and C3 speakers for the rear would cost $950, and that would leave $500 to buy a Rythmic FV12 subwoofer, which is an excellent one; much much better than the one in that package system.

Sigh... The FV12 has been out of production for a few months now, so that's probably not the best option.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The Klipsch RW12 is another very good subwooofer for under $500.

The RW-12d is actually on sale at Newegg again for $299, which is a good price. I'm not sure it would be a great match for the aforementioned KEF speakers though; I suspect the sub wouldn't be quite as crisp as they would.

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post #8 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The quote given has no scientific basis and is obviously only opinion. I see NO scientific research cited to back it up, and is the undocumented and highly biased product of some hack at Audessy, which has its own commercial agenda to push; hardly an unbiased source.

The article clearly points to research Audyssey, or others, have done with regards to frequency response. The article was written by Chris Kyriakakis at Audyssey, someone who has posted extensively on this and other forums and really seems to know his stuff. We also have people like Dr. Hsu, who has a PHD from MIT comment on the 80hz crossover, and in fact, designed his bookshelf speakers to be crossed over at 80hz (he is not the only respectable speaker designed to do this either):
http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=133161&postcount=2

And of course there is THX who have also done extensive research and testing within the home theater space and their THX Select and Ultra specs for receivers are designed with 80hz in mind.

So where is all your scientific research to backup your claims that you can localize frequencies well below 80hz? I tend to believe the experts in the industry vs some novice at AVS who repeatedly offers misguided opinions to folks who are brand new to home audio and do not know any better.
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post #9 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Sigh... The FV12 has been out of production for a few months now, so that's probably not the best option.
 

You would think he would have gotten the message by now...

More misguided information... Ughh...
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post #10 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Just so the OP does not get bad information:
http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/
In short, it is absolutely fine to crossover speakers at 80hz, since unless you have golden ears, you most likely will not be able to localize the frequencies and it also allows your receiver to provide better headroom to your main speakers.
+1, the Audyssey link is spot on, quoting information well known to the professional audio engineering community. Crossing over lower than 80Hz serves no purpose as the content down there is summed to mono in the recording process anyway.

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post #11 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:21 AM
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I did a good bit of research on these for a friend setting up a HT system. I heard the smaller version, the T101s. Basically, they are lifestyle speakers so you are paying a permium for the form factor. They do sound good, and Hometheater mag gave them a top pick, but you can get better sounding speakers for the same price. It is really up to you if you want the thin, sleek look.

That being said, if you just price out 3 of the T301s and 2 of the T101s on KefDirect, that comes to $1,588. So if you can really get 5 of the T301s and the sub for $1,500, that is a great deal. The sub, however, is quite weak for HT use. Hometheater measured the -3dB point at 38Hz, and it has an MSRP of $700. So normally, I would say just get the 5 flat speakers and a much better sub from SVS or HSU. But, you are basically getting the sub for free at that price. You can try it out and always add a second sub or replace it with a better one if it doesn't do it for you.

One other thing regarding crossover frequency. It is generally accepted that you want to set it at 80Hz, but that is not a rule. KEFAmerica posted that they set the crossover on the T305 system at 120Hz, since the on wall speakers have relatively poor bass output. That means that you are more likely to notice the direction of the sound coming from the sub. So, I would try to place the sub up front by the L/C/R speakers, so that all the sound seems to be coming from the front soundstage.

Good luck.

Here is the review and the measurements:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/kef-t305-speaker-system

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post #12 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:26 AM
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If you go to the Rythmic website, you will find that it is possible to place an order for an FV12 subwoofer, with no mention of it being out of stock or out of production. I just did so, right up to where I would have entered my credit card number.

You just seem to be having a hard time getting anything right today.


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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

You would think he would have gotten the message by now...
More misguided information... Ughh...
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post #13 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

I did a good bit of research on these for a friend setting up a HT system. I heard the smaller version, the T101s. Basically, they are lifestyle speakers so you are paying a permium for the form factor. They do sound good, and Hometheater mag gave them a top pick, but you can get better sounding speakers for the same price. It is really up to you if you want the thin, sleek look.
That being said, if you just price out 3 of the T301s and 2 of the T101s on KefDirect, that comes to $1,588. So if you can really get 5 of the T301s and the sub for $1,500, that is a great deal. The sub, however, is quite weak for HT use. Hometheater measured the -3dB point at 38Hz, and it has an MSRP of $700. So normally, I would say just get the 5 flat speakers and a much better sub from SVS or HSU. But, you are basically getting the sub for free at that price. You can try it out and always add a second sub or replace it with a better one if it doesn't do it for you.
One other thing regarding crossover frequency. It is generally accepted that you want to set it at 80Hz, but that is not a rule. KEFAmerica posted that they set the crossover on the T305 system at 120Hz, since the on wall speakers have relatively poor bass output. That means that you are more likely to notice the direction of the sound coming from the sub. So, I would try to place the sub up front by the L/C/R speakers, so that all the sound seems to be coming from the front soundstage.
Good luck.
Here is the review and the measurements:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/kef-t305-speaker-system

You are correct, there are speakers (HTIB, small satellite speakers, thin speakers such as the above) that simply cannot be crossed over at 80hz or lower. Or even 100hz.. Clearly this is a tradeoff and one to consider when buying these speakers and subwoofer placement as you mentioned.

As with all speakers there are pros and cons based on the design of the speaker, and the parts used, along with the budget.
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post #14 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you go to the Rythmic website, you will find that it is possible to place an order for an FV12 subwoofer, with no mention of it being out of stock or out of production. I just did so, right up to where I would have entered my credit card number.
You just seem to be having a hard time getting anything right today.

http://rythmikaudio.com/FV12.html

"FV12 ported sub black oak with 300WRMS amp (out of stock) $549 buy it now"

Confirmation that it is getting redesigned:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/80720-rythmik-fv12.html

The frustrating thing is that you have been told this time and again and yet you still stick to your guns in recommending this sub to people to purchase now. I think you are one of the most stubborn people I have ever seen post in this forum, and I don't mean that in a good way.
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post #15 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, one of the reasons I ran across these speakers in the first place was because of a compromise with the wife. She, of course, wanted something that was also stylish. When I grow up, I'll join some of the guys here on the forums and build myself a nice man-cave and install some beefier hardware. wink.gif

Just to let everyone know, I pulled the trigger on the T305. Paid exactly $1,499, including shipping. I also bought a pair of speaker stands for $199, also including shipping. For speaker wire, I was looking at these (the runs to the rears should be less than 30ft.) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006JSR4QU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&smid=AD6O342M484G6 , and some banana plugs: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006U3O566/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?ie=UTF8&smid=A28128AMZ00PEQ .

Thoughts?
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post #16 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbeas View Post

Well, one of the reasons I ran across these speakers in the first place was because of a compromise with the wife. She, of course, wanted something that was also stylish. When I grow up, I'll join some of the guys here on the forums and build myself a nice man-cave and install some beefier hardware. wink.gif
Just to let everyone know, I pulled the trigger on the T305. Paid exactly $1,499, including shipping. I also bought a pair of speaker stands for $199, also including shipping. For speaker wire, I was looking at these (the runs to the rears should be less than 30ft.) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006JSR4QU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&smid=AD6O342M484G6 , and some banana plugs: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006U3O566/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?ie=UTF8&smid=A28128AMZ00PEQ .
Thoughts?

Thoughts? Set it up and see how you like it. As recommended above, try to place the subwoofer near the speakers for any localization issues. If you feel the bass is lacking, you could try and sell the sub and buy something better from a company like Hsu, SVS, Rythmik, etc.

Seems like you got a good deal.
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post #17 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I meant your thoughts on the choice of speaker wire and banana plugs I posted above. My bad.
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post #18 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbeas View Post

Sorry, I meant your thoughts on the choice of speaker wire and banana plugs I posted above. My bad.

LOL, sorry smile.gif

How long are your speaker runs?

12AWG is probably overkill:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/frequently-asked-questions/speaker-cable-gauge-distance

Also, you may want to checkout Monoprice. Very good quality speaker wire and banana plugs at good prices.
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post #19 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 10:22 AM
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Sorry, I meant your thoughts on the choice of speaker wire and banana plugs I posted above. My bad.
Use this to calculate the wire gauge requirement. Going heavier than necessary gives no better result.
http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf

Any plugs will do, but for that matter you don't need them at all.

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post #20 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again, guys. Now I need to decide between the AVR-2313CI and the AVR-3313CI (I'm leaning towards the former) before the speakers get here. smile.gif
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post #21 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbeas View Post

Well, one of the reasons I ran across these speakers in the first place was because of a compromise with the wife. She, of course, wanted something that was also stylish. When I grow up, I'll join some of the guys here on the forums and build myself a nice man-cave and install some beefier hardware. wink.gif
Just to let everyone know, I pulled the trigger on the T305. Paid exactly $1,499, including shipping. I also bought a pair of speaker stands for $199, also including shipping. For speaker wire, I was looking at these (the runs to the rears should be less than 30ft.) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006JSR4QU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&smid=AD6O342M484G6 , and some banana plugs: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006U3O566/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?ie=UTF8&smid=A28128AMZ00PEQ .
Thoughts?

Please let me know what you think of that system once you get it installed. I was recommending that same system to my stepfather because he is looking for something super thin and less intrusive. I have not heard them myself, so I was a little leery recommending them.

Thanks,

Yamaha RX-V471 (AVR)
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Polk CS1 (center)
Polk OWM3 (surrounds)
Polk DSW pro550wi (sub)

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post #22 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mark1280 View Post

Please let me know what you think of that system once you get it installed. I was recommending that same system to my stepfather because he is looking for something super thin and less intrusive. I have not heard them myself, so I was a little leery recommending them.
Thanks,

Absolutely! smile.gif
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post #23 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbeas View Post

Thanks again, guys. Now I need to decide between the AVR-2313CI and the AVR-3313CI (I'm leaning towards the former) before the speakers get here. smile.gif

What are you looking for in an AVR? IMHO, I would spend less based on your system. Or get the 2012 model that is being sold much cheaper than the 2013.

Example:
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR2312CI-Integrated-Surround-Receiver/dp/B004Z0S7JW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342723479&sr=8-1&keywords=avr-2312ci
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post #24 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Also, you may want to checkout Monoprice. Very good quality speaker wire and banana plugs at good prices.

+1 on Monoprice speaker wire. You can get 100' of excellent quality 12 gauge wire for $30. Plus the banana plugs are high quality and dirt cheap. Just installed a run of 12 Gauge wire from them myself and it works great. Also, if you are going to run the wire to the rears through an attic, make sure you get the in-wall speaker wire rather than just the normal wire.
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post #25 of 25 Old 07-19-2012, 01:05 PM
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And by the way if in the future you do decide to upgrade, I think saving your money and getting an excellent quality sub would go a LONG way towards improving the sound. I had an inexpensive sub for a while and upgraded a few months ago, and the difference is phenomenal.
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