Going from 10Yr Old HTiB ($500) to Dream System ($1,995). Or is it??? Help plz. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

So about 12 years ago I got a HTiB
http://reviews.cnet.com/home-theater-systems/onkyo-ht-s650/1707-6740_7-9952795.html
Paid $550

Now ... I am a perfectionist and a musician by hobby so I value good sound. It's my drug.

Reason why I did not upgrade is:
1) Thought it will be too much hassle. Throwing out my old system (kinda feel sad).

2) I have the money and can afford $5K+ systems, but don't feel like paying so much to listen to some music 2 times a week or watch a movie once a week. I do however watch TV every day (reality, shows, news, etc).

3) I was worried that the upgrade won't be enough of a sound difference for me to be truly happy.

So .............

My room and my dream system.

The room is about 19 x 13.
I sit about 9-10 Feet away from front speakers

I do about 70% movies & TV shows, 30% music.
I want human voices to be crystal clear. I want sound effects to sound real. I want music to come alive and feel as if I am at the concert hall.

NOTE: ... from HTiB I changed Receiver to Yamaha RX-v465
(105 watts x 5 into 8 ohms (1k Hz) at 0.9% THD
Dolby® TrueHD, DTS-HD™ Master Audio, Dolby® Digital Plus, DTS-HD™ High Resolution Audio, DTS-Express, Dolby® Digital EX, DTS-ES™, Pro Logic® IIx, and DTS Neo:6 decoding)

System I am eying.

L/R/C speakers = Sierra-1 ($1,328)
Subwoofer = STF-2 ($319)
Surrounds = CBM-170SE ($348)

TOTAL = $1,995

QUESTIONS:

1) What do you think???

2) If I wanted to save a bit of money, what can I live without? Maybe skip Sub or surrounds?

Denon AVR 4311ci Ascend Sierra-1 NrT Ascend HTM-200 Rythmik F12 Panasonic TH50PX60U Samsung BD ES6000 Sony 222ES SACD Monster HTS 5100 MKI Logitech Harmony One Sennheiser HD600 Schiit Modi/Vali
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post #2 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 08:36 AM
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For sub I would look into the $500 - $600 class at a minimum. Like Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus or EX, Hsu VTF 2 or 3 MK4, SVS PB or PC 12 NSD, Rythmik FV12, Epik Legend or Empire. FYI I have a 23' X 11' X 7.5' room and sit 14' away I have dual Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Pluses. 1 in the front left corner and the other right next to the couch as an end table. A good sub makes all the difference in the world for both movies and music, you won't believe what you've been missing all these years.

Shawn
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post #3 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 08:40 AM
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Honestly? I think you are making a great choice with the Ascends.. I would not change anything in the order smile.gif For that much home theater, I would not skimp on the subwoofer. I might even upgrade to something with a little more output and extension from HSU, SVS, etc.

I guess the only place you could save some money would be to use the Onkyo mains as your surrounds for now. But for $2K it seems to me you have assembled a system that will be far superior to what you have now and easily give 10-15 years of enjoyment.
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post #4 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

My room and my dream system.
The room is about 19 x 13.

System I am eying.
L/R/C speakers = Sierra-1 ($1,328)
Subwoofer = STF-2 ($319)
Surrounds = CBM-170SE ($348)
TOTAL = $1,995
QUESTIONS:
1) What do you think???
2) If I wanted to save a bit of money, what can I live without? Maybe skip Sub or surrounds?

Not my definition of a "dream system", but they will sound great.

And no, you cannot live without subwoofer or surrounds. biggrin.gif

You can also buy 5 identical NHT Absolute Zero for $875 total plus a Rythmik FV12 for $550 ($60 s/h) = total $1485.

The NHT Absolute Zero measures +0.94/–0.82 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz, which is extremely, extremely accurate.

The FV12 sub has Servo-direct technology to provide a bass Q value of 0.5, which means tight accurate bass.

The Absolute Zero is now on sale for $175 each on Amazon. Won't last.

http://www.amazon.com/NHT-Absolute-Bookshelf-Speaker-Single/dp/B000BYNP7K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343058688&sr=8-1&keywords=nht+absolute+zero

Okay, scratch the FV12 since not available. Get the new VTF-2 MK4 sub with Q=0.3.

VTF-2 MK4 Subwoofer
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post #5 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 08:49 AM
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^^^ Everyone has different levels of dream systems and some have limited budgets so they just dream near the top of the budget they have to work with...... I am one of those ppl.

Shawn
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post #6 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

^^^ Everyone has different levels of dream systems and some have limited budgets so they just dream near the top of the budget they have to work with...... I am one of those ppl.

No need to explain. Some people on here live in la la land.
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post #7 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

No need to explain. Some people on here live in la la land.

Who are you talking about, Willis? eek.gifmad.gif
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post #8 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Not my definition of a "dream system", but they will sound great.
And no, you cannot live without subwoofer or surrounds. biggrin.gif
You can also buy 5 identical NHT Absolute Zero for $875 total plus a Rythmik FV12 for $550 ($60 s/h) = total $1485.
The NHT Absolute Zero measures +0.94/–0.82 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz, which is extremely, extremely accurate.
The FV12 sub has Servo-direct technology to provide a bass Q value of 0.5, which means tight accurate bass.
The Absolute Zero is now on sale for $175 each on Amazon. Won't last.
http://www.amazon.com/NHT-Absolute-Bookshelf-Speaker-Single/dp/B000BYNP7K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343058688&sr=8-1&keywords=nht+absolute+zero

FYI. Rythmik FV12 is being redesigned and is not in stock or available for shipping. I believe September is the ETA for the redesign.
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post #9 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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.........AND back to the subject ... :-) ....

I see people suggesting a bigger Sub (Hsu VTF 2 or 3 MK4)

Will my Receiver be enough to power through a sub like that?

Yamaha RX-v465
105 watts x 5 into 8 ohms (1k Hz) at 0.9% THD


I am not looking for the floor to shake. Just want clean, accurate, depth.

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post #10 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

.........AND back to the subject ... :-) ....
I see people suggesting a bigger Sub (Hsu VTF 2 or 3 MK4)
Will my Receiver be enough to power through a sub like that?
Yamaha RX-v465
105 watts x 5 into 8 ohms (1k Hz) at 0.9% THD
I am not looking for the floor to shake. Just want clean, accurate, depth.

Your receiver will not power any sub. The subs have their own amps.

But, yeah, I don't think you need a big sub. Not too small, not too large.
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post #11 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

.........AND back to the subject ... :-) ....
I see people suggesting a bigger Sub (Hsu VTF 2 or 3 MK4)
Will my Receiver be enough to power through a sub like that?
Yamaha RX-v465
105 watts x 5 into 8 ohms (1k Hz) at 0.9% THD
I am not looking for the floor to shake. Just want clean, accurate, depth.

HSU is very helpful. I would call them and discuss your room and requirements and see what they recommend. The STF-2 will be a big improvement over what you have now, but you don't want to underspcope your sub for your room. There is a misnomer that exists that smaller subwoofers will have tighter, more accurate bass which is simply not true.
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post #12 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 09:28 AM
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If clear sound is the most important thing (And you have room) I suggest...

A pair of magnepan MMG's for $599/pair
http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG

MMG center for $299
http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMGC

MMGW for rear surrounds for $325/pair
http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMGW

total = $1225

That would leave you $600+ for a good sub (hsu, outlaw, rhythmik, svs, ...), which you'll need with magnepans
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post #13 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

No need to explain. Some people on here live in la la land.

Who are you talking about, Willis? eek.gifmad.gif

Lol. I meant to include a smiley emoticon but the tapatalk app doesn't seem to have one.
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post #14 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 01:08 PM
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fwiw , there are some ascend sierras on audiogon for sale pretty much brand new has lcr for $1000 . make offer could get them cheaper this could save you a liittle cash

i'm so laid back,i'm laid out
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post #15 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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By the way ............ is it an issue that I use Metal speaker stands for my Left and Right speakers? Does it play on the sound?

thanks

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post #16 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 01:18 PM
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As long as their the proper hight and the top is wide enough to hold the speakers securely you should be fine. You may want to add some Blu-Tac to the bottom of the speaker to give it some extra security.smile.gif
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post #17 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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By the way, many suggest a much more powerfull sub .... I am actually not too big on bass. I can;t have my floor rattle. I don't listen to Hip Hop, etc. I need bass where it's needed to provide depth of sound. Even the sub I have right now, I have it turned on at about 45% on the dial. It still gives enough. Maybe it's not quality bass but in terms of loudness, It's more than enough. Do I really need a $500 sub?

On the other hand I am thinking ... hey, you'll be using this set up for years. I mean I've had my $500 HTiB for 12 years now. So if I get extra accuracy and quality, maybe I should pay more and get the $520 sub instead of $350. I just want to make sure I really need it in my situation.

Denon AVR 4311ci Ascend Sierra-1 NrT Ascend HTM-200 Rythmik F12 Panasonic TH50PX60U Samsung BD ES6000 Sony 222ES SACD Monster HTS 5100 MKI Logitech Harmony One Sennheiser HD600 Schiit Modi/Vali
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post #18 of 66 Old 07-23-2012, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

By the way, many suggest a much more powerfull sub .... I am actually not too big on bass. I can;t have my floor rattle. I don't listen to Hip Hop, etc. I need bass where it's needed to provide depth of sound. Even the sub I have right now, I have it turned on at about 45% on the dial. It still gives enough. Maybe it's not quality bass but in terms of loudness, It's more than enough. Do I really need a $500 sub?
On the other hand I am thinking ... hey, you'll be using this set up for years. I mean I've had my $500 HTiB for 12 years now. So if I get extra accuracy and quality, maybe I should pay more and get the $520 sub instead of $350. I just want to make sure I really need it in my situation.

My advice, call SVS and HSU and talk to them about your needs. The Hsu subs are quite tunable. You can plug ports to get more extension or more output. Again, a smaller sub does not equal tighter bass and less boominess. Sub placement and setup is key. You may like a good sealed sub like the SVS SB12.
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post #19 of 66 Old 07-24-2012, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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what do you guys think about these???

http://soundfieldaudio.net/Products.html

"3 way bookshelf loudspeaker
Passive 5.25" midwoofer/ 1" tweeter Coincident coaxial driver and 8" active long throw subwoofer.
Sealed cabinet.

FR: 38-20,000 Hz +/- 3db, 100-10,000hz +/- 2db. Typical in room extension to below 30hz.
Nominal impedance 6ohms, 4 ohm minimum.
Sensitivity (2.83V): 86.5 db
Crossover frequencies: 200hz and 2.5Khz.
300 watt rms rear mounted BASH plate amplifier and banana plug speaker terminals.
Recommended amplifier power: 20-200 watts rms
Size: 17" H x 10" w x 12.5" d
Weight: 35 lbs (39 lbs shipping)
Available in Maple, Cherry and Black (piano) finishes.
Price: $1300/pr"



they are just $300+ more per pair. Better than Sierra-1 ?

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post #20 of 66 Old 07-24-2012, 07:38 AM
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No not for HT. A sensitivity of 86.5 db is crazy low. You won't have enough amplifier power to push them anywhere near reference . At 10' away I won't go any lower than 90db. They may sound great but you have to keep in mind if they aren't sensitive enough they'll sound like crap if you push them. Not sure what the sierra 1s sensitivity is but keep in mind this is extremely important for HT. Dynamics shouldn't be overlooked. Also if this a dedicated room spend $300 and treat your first reflections DIY style. The room can make or break the sound, and un treated room will make any system sound bad in comparison to the same gear in treated room.

And like others have said don't skimpy on a sub. If your handy you can build a sub for $300-400 that will compete with subs in the 1000-1500 range. They're very easy to build.
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post #21 of 66 Old 07-24-2012, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

No not for HT. A sensitivity of 86.5 db is crazy low. You won't have enough amplifier power to push them anywhere near reference . At 10' away I won't go any lower than 90db. They may sound great but you have to keep in mind if they aren't sensitive enough they'll sound like crap if you push them. Not sure what the sierra 1s sensitivity is but keep in mind this is extremely important for HT. Dynamics shouldn't be overlooked. Also if this a dedicated room spend $300 and treat your first reflections DIY style. The room can make or break the sound, and un treated room will make any system sound bad in comparison to the same gear in treated room.
And like others have said don't skimpy on a sub. If your handy you can build a sub for $300-400 that will compete with subs in the 1000-1500 range. They're very easy to build.

The Sierra-1 is
(In-Room Sensitivity = 87dB @ 1 watt / 1 meter)

Regarding sub ,.... I would be happy to build it, BUT I've never done it before so I have no idea on what to do.

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post #22 of 66 Old 07-24-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

The Sierra-1 is
(In-Room Sensitivity = 87dB @ 1 watt / 1 meter)
Regarding sub ,.... I would be happy to build it, BUT I've never done it before so I have no idea on what to do.

It comes down to what you are trying to do. Sensitivity is important if you are trying to play at reference levels.

An 87db sensitive speaker being driven by a standard 100 watt amp in a 5.1 configuration @9' from the listening position will still hit close to 108db at peak:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

That is pretty loud smile.gif

That said if your goal is to be able to hit 112-116db peaks at the listening position you would most likely need different speakers. I suspect, based on your past system, you are not trying to listen that loudly, and the size of your room helps here as it is not that large.

I think DIY is great, but if you have concerns about the look of the sub, just buy a finished one smile.gif

Many of the DIY subs I have seen would not pass the wife test smile.gif
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post #23 of 66 Old 07-24-2012, 10:20 AM
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This chart gives you an idea of how loud normal events are at what decibel level:
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

Example, normal conversation is 60-65db

Sustained listening over 90db is just flat out bad for your ears and can result in long-term hearing loss.
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post #24 of 66 Old 07-24-2012, 11:53 AM
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I use that cal calculator all the time and the 87 db speakers can only do like 98dbs not 105, u have to factor one speaker away from wall. You'll kill this speaker and it will sound crappy anwhere near 100db peaks at 9 feet.

Also keep in mind that a 100watt avr won't produce that with all channels driven if you can 80watts actual output youve got a good avr. Manufactures commonly test with 2 channel and claim 7.
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post #25 of 66 Old 07-24-2012, 12:03 PM
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To the op.

Google winisd and download this free program. Find some sub drivers from a place like parts express, choose new in the program and plug in the specs for the driver. Then select it. Now you'll see a freq. Reaponse this driver will give you in the box the program picked. You can change the box size to you're liking skiers the port size and length to tune it for a nice flat and low response. Now build that box. Done.

When selecting driver key things to look for are fs....this gives an indication of how low you can tune it 20hz and lower is great. Up to 23 is still good. You may able to tune lower, use the program to see. Sensitivity...for 15-18" 90db or higher is great, higher even better. This will make it easy to drive. Is look into pro drivers....higher sensitivity and very loud and clean. Look at the craigsub 18s and their success. If you need any more help send me a pm.
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post #26 of 66 Old 07-24-2012, 12:21 PM
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Forgot to mention amps. Dayton 240w plate amp and bash 300w plate amp are both greatand very popular.. I've used both in a few subs.
Goggles DIY subwoofer for tips and bracing info.
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post #27 of 66 Old 07-25-2012, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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So, finally ... after deliberating for quite some time I pulled the trigger and got the Sierras-1 L/R/C speakers.
Also got $100 discount over the phone. So grand total $1,350 for the expensive color

I'll first listen to these babies before I spend another $550 for Sub and $350 for surrounds.

Should I also buy better wire? My speakers are close to the Receiver (6-8 feet of wire.)

Should I upgrade to 12-14AWG ???
my current wires are supper thin that came with the HTiB system


thanks

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post #28 of 66 Old 07-25-2012, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

So, finally ... after deliberating for quite some time I pulled the trigger and got the Sierras-1 L/R/C speakers.
Also got $100 discount over the phone. So grand total $1,350 for the expensive color
I'll first listen to these babies before I spend another $550 for Sub and $350 for surrounds.
Should I also buy better wire? My speakers are close to the Receiver (6-8 feet of wire.)
Should I upgrade to 12-14AWG ???
my current wires are supper thin that came with the HTiB system
thanks

I think you made a smart choice. I don't own the Sierra's but have heard them and they are excellent speakers. Should give you everything you are looking for.

As for the speaker wire, you are probably okay but wire is so cheap that if it makes you feel better just pick some up at Home Depot. 16 guage should be fine.
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post #29 of 66 Old 07-25-2012, 07:15 AM
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I had a Sony HTIB and recall those wires. I would definitely upgrade the speaker wire.

The 16 awg from monoprice is good quality and cheap.

Would be interested to hear your decision on the sub. Contemplating an upgrade from a Klipsch KSW-10 to something from HSU (or maybe this KW-12 that is floating on ebay for 299)
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post #30 of 66 Old 07-25-2012, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, 16AWG it is.... do I need the banana plugs ?

Denon AVR 4311ci Ascend Sierra-1 NrT Ascend HTM-200 Rythmik F12 Panasonic TH50PX60U Samsung BD ES6000 Sony 222ES SACD Monster HTS 5100 MKI Logitech Harmony One Sennheiser HD600 Schiit Modi/Vali
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