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post #31 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 06:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

Great, you unnecessarily defined the word for me... rolleyes.gif

I was showing you how I was using the word, not defining it for you. My apologies if that point failed to come across.
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post #32 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Period... Nothing... Nix... Nada. eek.gif

Okay Craig, how do you really feel on the matter? tongue.gif

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(If you would like to discuss this issue, let me know and I'll be happy to provide the info to substantiate this issue.)

I have no doubt about the accuracy of your comments so no need to go there. Down in the pits where the rest of us plebs reside, I recommend starting their speaker system with the best center channel they can afford and building out from there. With all due respect, the accuracy of what you have to post, fails to sway me on my comment. Here's what the original poster posted posted in regard to his budget:

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mfrey0118 wrote: Look guys, I know you could just laugh at me...but I'll tell you one thing...if you knew how poor I was, and how creative and determined I've been just to get what i've gotten, you'd be amazed.

This is the comment that I responded to when I originally posted the image: "Any adivce is appreciated!"

The intent was to show an alternative setup as to choosing a center channel. It's an imperfect world we live in and dealing with compromise can be daunting. You'll find much of what I comment on or suggest is based in real world as opposed to the ideal world of the aficionado.


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Does it rise to the level of what is ideal in a dedicated HT???? IMO... clearly not. :eek Craig

One as experienced as you should easily see that rising to the level of ideal was not the intent of my post.
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post #33 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I was showing you how I was using the word, not defining it for you. My apologies if that point failed to come across.

No worries...

I guess I just wasn't following clearly what you were referring to by "the world of the esoteric"... Not the use of the word, but to what it pertained... since it was in the same post where you quoted my link to Andrew Jones' comments on MTM design.

Like I said, when I think esoteric in audio - I think "snake oil" type products... which was clearly not how you meant it....
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post #34 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 07:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

You know, sometimes it's easy to miss the context of a post when it's read too quickly... and I've been known to do that...wink.gif

Just as long as I don't kick over bad feelings in my comments.

I see life in the sense of a neighbor asking for advice which needs to be kept as simple as possible as they will have a limited budget and will have to live with all the flaws their limiting budget will introduce. Not many neighbors come up to another neighbor and say: I have $25k to blow on a HT system to put in the HT room I just finished having built, What do you suggest I should get in furniture, room treatments and equipment to make me smile?

Most people will ask, what's the best HTiB they should get? eek.gif
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post #35 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just as long as I don't kick over bad feelings in my comments.
I see life in the sense of a neighbor asking for advice which needs to be kept as simple as possible as they will have a limited budget and will have to live with all the flaws their limiting budget will introduce. Not many neighbors come up to another neighbor and say: I have $25k to blow on a HT system to put in the HT room I just finished having built, What do you suggest I should get in furniture, room treatments and equipment to make me smile?
Most people will ask, what's the best HTiB they should get? eek.gif

Heh, you caught my post before I edited it...

Nah, no bad feelings... just miscommunication...
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post #36 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

I haven't heard them all, so I can't definitively say yes... But the C22 is half the cost of the S50, and given that it was designed by Andrew Jones, I'm confident it is well designed. Best Buy should be selling them soon (if not now), so you could go listen to it in store, or try it in home and return it if you don't like it.
I was impressed with the Cambridge S30, so I would hope Cambridge designed the S50 to the same level or performance. But, it's not unheard of for a company to make a nice 2-way, while the matching MTM center is sub-par (again, in terms of off-axis performance).
As I mentioned before, I just wasn't a fan of the entry level Polk speakers I've heard before... and I have no experience with BIC at all.

I have to say, based on the OP's budget, I would go with the Pioneer as well. If you are patiient there are sales frequently on the Pioneer speakers at Best Buy and Newegg. I also agree with Craig that having your main speakers timbre match would be my top priority. So I would say focus your funds on the center and two mains then get the subwoofer.

I have to think the Pioneer speakers will be a noticeable upgrade vs what you have now. From the looks and description of your room. It sounds like you would benefit from Audyssey.
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post #37 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not many neighbors come up to another neighbor and say: I have $25k to blow on a HT system to put in the HT room I just finished having built, What do you suggest I should get in furniture, room treatments and equipment to make me smile?

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post #38 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

I haven't heard them all, so I can't definitively say yes... But the C22 is half the cost of the S50, and given that it was designed by Andrew Jones, I'm confident it is well designed. Best Buy should be selling them soon (if not now), so you could go listen to it in store, or try it in home and return it if you don't like it.
I was impressed with the Cambridge S30, so I would hope Cambridge designed the S50 to the same level or performance. But, it's not unheard of for a company to make a nice 2-way, while the matching MTM center is sub-par (again, in terms of off-axis performance).
As I mentioned before, I just wasn't a fan of the entry level Polk speakers I've heard before... and I have no experience with BIC at all.

I have to say, based on the OP's budget, I would go with the Pioneer as well. If you are patiient there are sales frequently on the Pioneer speakers at Best Buy and Newegg. I also agree with Craig that having your main speakers timbre match would be my top priority. So I would say focus your funds on the center and two mains then get the subwoofer.

I have to think the Pioneer speakers will be a noticeable upgrade vs what you have now. From the looks and description of your room. It sounds like you would benefit from Audyssey.

Oh I use Audyssey. The 609 has the Audessey 2EQ with the 3 listening positions, and no eq on the sub. My budget for the center channel maxes out at $200. Does anyone have an opinion on the BIC? It's getting kick-ass reviews on Amazon. It has 6 1/2" drivers with a freq response all the way to 38hz which is great. With some of these smaller ones being suggested, there isn't a lot of midbass potential...that's a critical part of the sound stage that I don't want to miss out on, if possible.

However the Pioneer and S50 look intruiging.

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post #39 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

Oh I use Audyssey. The 609 has the Audessey 2EQ with the 3 listening positions, and no eq on the sub. My budget for the center channel maxes out at $200. Does anyone have an opinion on the BIC? It's getting kick-ass reviews on Amazon. It has 6 1/2" drivers with a freq response all the way to 38hz which is great. With some of these smaller ones being suggested, there isn't a lot of midbass potential...that's a critical part of the sound stage that I don't want to miss out on, if possible.
However the Pioneer and S50 look intruiging.

I am always leery of manufacturers speaker specs. Unless the manufacturer posts measurements, or even better, a third party posts measurements, I would not put 100% stock in the BIC specs, but not having heard the speaker, I cannot really say either way if it sounds better than the pioneer speakers. I would leverage a subwoofer to provide bass below 80hz anyway, so having a budget center speaker extend to 38hz is not something I would recommend. It may play that low, but I doubt it can do it cleanly, or loudly.
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post #40 of 54 Old 07-26-2012, 08:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

My budget for the center channel maxes out at $200.

HSU Research gets good reviews and have a bookshelf/center speaker package that looks to fit your budget.
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post #41 of 54 Old 07-27-2012, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dpc716 View Post




I know this picture is horrible but I took it with what I had on hand.

I had the same problem as you, I got the JTR triple 8 center which is almost 10 inches high and it blocked the IR sensor on the TV.

I went to Home Depot and got a shelf, some 6 inch legs {with mounting screws already attached), brackets and black paint. It cost me $12 and an hour of time. You can't really see it, but it looks ok. Something to consider.

Not really going in that direction, at this time. I prefer the tilt ability of the mount that the 60" ST30 is on now, to angle slightly down at eye level of those sitting on the sectional sofa. The St30 has a louvre filter and I don't want to start dealing with vertical off-axis viewing compromises.

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post #42 of 54 Old 07-28-2012, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys, just wanted to say thanks for all the good info! I think I've made my decision. I'm going with the BIC America lines:

BIC America Venturi DV64
BIC America DV-62CLRS
BIC America F12 12-Inch 475-Watt Front Firing Subwoofer

They're getting exceptional reviews from Amazon as well as some home theater sites. Dr. Hsu actually designed a speaker for them a few years back, from what I've been reading. And I also heard Venturi is a good name. You can't beat the price to performance ratio, if these speakers are even half as good as the reviews suggest.

I'll update the thread with my impressions after I purchase these items in the next few weeks (well the mains and center, the sub will have to wait a bit..), but I'm anticipating that these drivers will take my Onkyo 609 to its full potential!

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post #43 of 54 Old 07-28-2012, 07:17 AM
 
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If Amazon reviewers are happy, I'm sure you'll be happy. Look forward to your further comments once the ones you did order are installed, up and running.
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post #44 of 54 Old 07-28-2012, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If Amazon reviewers are happy, I'm sure you'll be happy. Look forward to your further comments once the ones you did order are installed, up and running.

Hmm...can't tell if there's an element of sarcasm in that reply or not...wink.gif

I did research on the company. Consumer Reports has them highly rated, home theater mag said the center channel was one of the best they've ever heard...they seem to be an under-the-radar company, which appeals to me (for some reason I have a natural aversion to the mainstream brands that everyone seems to push, call it the "bose effect" if you will). And their percentage of 4 and 5 star reviews on sites like Amazon and Crutchfield is truly impressive.

So I'm willing to take a chance because if it works out, I'll get the best bang for the buck, if not, I'll return 'em and start over...at that point I'll either go with the Pioneer or Cambridge, I think. I also like the idea of being able to match all the front stage drivers within my budget, as well as the sub. The F12 really looks like it bumps. I have twin Kicker 12" L7's in a 3 stage box in my car perfectly matched to a Kicker ZX1500.1 amp so I know good bass when I hear it. I'm also looking for a good midbass center/main combo because that's a part of the sound stage that is almost always overlooked in car audio. When I installed a dedicated pair of 8" kicker SSMB08's going to a Kicker SX600.2, I noticed a phenomenol improvement immediately. And with these BIC's freqs going down as low as they do makes me think they will shine in the 150-80hz range. I've been using my Onkyo 10" sub for pretty much all freq's below 150hz due to the restraints of the factory HTiB drivers from the HT-S5400 system, and I don't like it, too boomy and overpowering, not tight or the least bit punchy, especially playing rock and roll.

My 609 puts out 100 watts RMS @ 8 ohms with 2 channels driven so it should be a great match for these babies.

Anyway, I digress...

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post #45 of 54 Old 07-28-2012, 08:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

Hmm...can't tell if there's an element of sarcasm in that reply or not...wink.gif

None intended in the least. If Amazon reviewers are happy, I'm a big Amazon user and reviewer, I'm sure you'll be happy. Sorry if the intended positive nature of my supporting comment failed to come across.

See my comment in the light of: "If momma's happy then daddy's happy."

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post #46 of 54 Old 07-28-2012, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

Hmm...can't tell if there's an element of sarcasm in that reply or not...wink.gif

None intended in the least. If Amazon reviewers are happy, I'm a big Amazon user and reviewer, I'm sure you'll be happy. Sorry if the intended positive nature of my supporting comment failed to come across.

See my comment in the light of: "If momma's happy then daddy's happy."

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No problem man, I was just messin' with ya a bit.

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post #47 of 54 Old 07-28-2012, 11:19 AM
 
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No problem man, I was just messin' with ya a bit.

It matters to me as condescending people suck. I'm happy for your choice and want to hear what you think when the gear is up and running. Nothing beats positive support.
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post #48 of 54 Old 07-29-2012, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Put in my order yesterday...here goes nothin'! Will update with impressions as soon as I have some.

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post #49 of 54 Old 08-07-2012, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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OK set up my DV64 towers and 62CLRS center Saturday afternoon.

First impressions: These speakers look impressive. I love the 4-speaker look of the towers, with the two passive cones below the active ones. The vinyl finish is nice, but I would've preferred real wood. Grills feel nice and well made, the mesh is attractive and seems to be high quality.

My first thought on the center channel was, "Geez, this baby is FAT!". It's quite large; however, the size doesn't seem to cheapen the overall impressions at all, in fact, it actually conveys to me that this baby can really rock.

Sound: One word to describe out-of-the-box audio impressions: STIFF! These definitely need break-in periods. I've cranked it up very briefly and I can detect no distortion at all at higher volumes. I did notice the difference in sound immediately, however. These things sound GREAT to me. The soundstage is so much fuller now. Midbass actually has punch to it! I can't really get a lot of good low end from the center channel yet (although it's slowly warming up, I've got about 20-25 hours on them so far) but I've got the towers on full range to really break them in at all frequencies.

Audessey noticed the difference immediately. I ran the setup when I first hooked them up Saturday, and it crossed both the mains and center over at 40hz. That tells you the difference is pronounced from the factory Onkyos that were crossed over at 100hz.

Dialogue is much better now. The voices are really brought out to the front of the soundstage. I don't find the tweeters exceptionally bright or overpowering, I think they balance nicely with the rest of the sound.

I can definitely notice the drivers breaking in. When I first started playing them, the towers had virtually no bass at all. About a minute later, I could start hearing more low end and now I am finding myself switching to direct 2 channel more and more to listen to the towers only. They have good range, much better low-end than a shelf setup.

All in all, I am very pleased so far with my improved sound quality. Once they break in for about 60 hours, I'll run Audessey again and maybe even play around with my SPL meter. biggrin.gif

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post #50 of 54 Old 08-20-2012, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I just modified my Walker Edison 60" 4 in 1 TV stand so that with the TV mounted it stands about 8" higher. I figured since the TV weighs roughly half the capacity of the stand, I could raise the mount frame up on the main frame without sacrificing too much structural integrity. Now my large BIC center channel has plenty of room and sits nice and centered on the top shelf...smile.gif
So here's my currently evolving setup:










I know the sub is placed badly, being inside a wooden box table and stuck in the corner between the wall, patio door, and side of the sofa. Once I get the F12 I will do the sub test where you place it in the listening position and move around possible locations looking for best acoustics.

The Onkyo satellites and subwoofer are next to go. I already have 3 DV52si's on the way...biggrin.gif

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post #51 of 54 Old 08-20-2012, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Guess you can't tell from the pics (camera battery went dead), but what I did on the stand was this:
The mount for the TV sits on a separate metal frame that bolts into the main frame that holds the shelves. It was designed to sit flush with the bottom of the stand frame whereby they both rest on the ground. It seemed the best option with what I had to work with was to simply raise the mount frame about 8". At first I simply tried to drill new holes for the existing bolts, that only bit into the back wall of the support beams of the main frame and screwed tight. Problem was after drilling the holes, I was unable to thread them properly to bite hard enough and they began to strip out as I tightened. So I went to Home Depot and got 3.5" 1/4" bolts, self-locking nuts, and washers and I drilled new holes and ran 4 bolts all the way through and tighened them up. It really works because the bolts are positioned just so that you cannot see the silver heads when sitting down because the black frosted glass hides them. I also figured that running bolts all the way through and using nuts and washers would allow me to have only 4 bolts instead of the factory 6. My concern of course, was having the mount frame 8" up the stand frame and how that would affect the integrity of the mount and the stability of the stand. What decided it for me was the fact that the 60" ST30 weighs roughly half of the recommended weight limit for the stand. I figured the compromise would work out and so far it has. It flexes a bit more now and the stand will rock if I sway the panel back and forth a bit but sans a big earthquake or someone running into the stand at full speed I don't think it will be an issue.

All in all, I am quite happy so far with my budget system...

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post #52 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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OK I finally have everything done but the sub. DV62s for surround, 52s for rear surround. Sounds great...



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post #53 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 06:48 AM
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In hindsight, one should consider speaker selection and placement when picking a TV stand. Unfortunately ALL the current styles are designed for just the TV and a "soundbar" My living room setup with a 60" LCD has a Bello stand that (after removing the back support) shoehorned a full size Klipsch KG 2,5v. The stand is a little higher than most, so the speaker is pretty much right in front of the couch.


There is not much in the (mass market) arena for a larger center with 6 inch drivers for I am constantly on the lookout (craigslist, pawn, goodwill) for legacy speakers. My bedroom is rocking a nice set of Monitor Audio Silver bookshelf's and matching center. There is an older Sony 46" LCD that does sit a little higher than current sets so I can place the Monitor directly in front of it and just clear the screen.

Several years back I got the Bose VC10 (from CC-rip). Loved the form factor but HATED the sound. Kept it for years with different receivers looking for a good combination (but never did). Good news is consignment stores still think there is "value" in BOSE so gave much of my money back on it.


Funny thing about most older center is the angled back so you could flip it over and put in on a bottom shelf aiming up at the seat tried that, but looked to odd to keep it,


Good luck on finding a solution.
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post #54 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jfbar1 View Post

In hindsight, one should consider speaker selection and placement when picking a TV stand. Unfortunately ALL the current styles are designed for just the TV and a "soundbar" My living room setup with a 60" LCD has a Bello stand that (after removing the back support) shoehorned a full size Klipsch KG 2,5v. The stand is a little higher than most, so the speaker is pretty much right in front of the couch.


There is not much in the (mass market) arena for a larger center with 6 inch drivers for I am constantly on the lookout (craigslist, pawn, goodwill) for legacy speakers. My bedroom is rocking a nice set of Monitor Audio Silver bookshelf's and matching center. There is an older Sony 46" LCD that does sit a little higher than current sets so I can place the Monitor directly in front of it and just clear the screen.

Several years back I got the Bose VC10 (from CC-rip). Loved the form factor but HATED the sound. Kept it for years with different receivers looking for a good combination (but never did). Good news is consignment stores still think there is "value" in BOSE so gave much of my money back on it.


Funny thing about most older center is the angled back so you could flip it over and put in on a bottom shelf aiming up at the seat tried that, but looked to odd to keep it,


Good luck on finding a solution.
Found one, see above posts. I think the 62CLRS is a great dual 6" center channel and my modification to my stand has worked well.

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