Help! 100% HT use speakers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello All!

I am looking for some guidance before I pull the trigger. Here is the scenario.

100% HT use.

Option 1

Aperion
Grand Verus Front L & R
Grand Verus Center
Verus Surround

OR

Option 2

Axiom
M80 Front L & R
VP180 Center
Qs8 Surrounds


My initial reaction is I like the fit and finish better on Aperion and the towers seem better in general.

On the Axiom, I like the center channel better and feel like the surrounds might be better, not sure until I hear of course. And the price.

I will be running all on an Onkyo 709. Most likely Bi-Amp the fronts.

Getting an SVS sub, most likely the PB12-NSD.

What are your thoughts, fire away?
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post #2 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 09:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJE View Post

Most likely Bi-Amp the fronts (option on the M80s).

---snip---

What are your thoughts, fire away?

My opinion, there's no point in bi-amping unless bi-amping the tweeters with tubes to mellow the harshness of the highs.
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post #3 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

My opinion, there's no point in bi-amping unless bi-amping the tweeters with tubes to mellow the harshness of the highs.

Sorry, I meant Bi-Wire! My mistake. My Receiver has a built in Bi-Amp feature.
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post #4 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 11:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RyanJE View Post

Sorry, I meant Bi-Wire! My mistake. My Receiver has a built in Bi-Amp feature.

Oh sure, now you're trying to confuse me. tongue.gif

My understanding, unless severely under-amping your speakers when cranking the volume knob (introduced distortion from over-amping), there's no benefit to bi-wiring them either.

Think of it in the light of a turbo'd six cylinder vs an eight cylinder engine. If you need a turbo'd six, you should have bought a V-8. tongue.gif
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post #5 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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OK thanks. So what about Option 1 or Option 2, any thoughts?
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post #6 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 11:41 AM
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Option 1. Axiom's dual tweeter center channels are horrible for off axis listening. The Aperion Grand is going to offer nicer finishes, better cabinets and better quality drivers. Also the Aperion doesn't have the weird impedance dips like the Axiom M80s do (which can over heat and shutdown the amp). The Xover design in the Axioms is odd as well, running the mids full range with no high or low pass filters, cause distortion and breakup at high volume as well as lowering the sensitivity, because the midrange is trying to produce the lower content.

I owned Axioms for 4 yrs and wish I went with something else after having them so long. IMO its low to mid end product with too high of price.
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post #7 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 11:48 AM
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For 100% HT use, I don't really like either option if you listen close to reference levels. I'd look at higher sensitivity speakers for that sort of application.

If you don't watch movies at reference levels, and are OK without having that massive dynamic range, I'd rather have the Aperions.
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post #8 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Option 1. Axiom's dual tweeter center channels are horrible for off axis listening. The Aperion Grand is going to offer nicer finishes, better cabinets and better quality drivers. Also the Aperion doesn't have the weird impedance dips like the Axiom M80s do (which can over heat and shutdown the amp). The Xover design in the Axioms is odd as well, running the mids full range with no high or low pass filters, cause distortion and breakup at high volume as well as lowering the sensitivity, because the midrange is trying to produce the lower content.
I owned Axioms for 4 yrs and wish I went with something else after having them so long. IMO its low to mid end product with too high of price.

GT, thank you for the feedback.I appreciate it!! Which Axioms did you own specifically? Have you heard the Aperions also?

So having multiple tweaters is bad for off axis? I thought that would be good, especially being at the near end of the speaker rather than just one in the middle.
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post #9 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 12:16 PM
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If the system is really 100% HT, no 2 channel music, then you could ditch the Versus Grand Towers and get the Versus Grand Bookshelves instead. Since you are likely to set the x-over at 80Hz, having the extra bass from the towers will be kinda wasted. 2 Bookshelves are $600 while 2 towers are $1800. Then you could even get a better sub, like the PB12-Plus or Rythmik FV15HP and still overall spend less money. How big is your room and how much space do you have for the sub? Is WAF a factor?

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post #10 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 12:23 PM
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I had M22s, M2s and VP150. The M80s don't have as much problems as the centers do (VP150,VP180). I haven't listened to the Verus series. A friend has some older Aperion Intimus models 4 years or so maybe and I though they sounded more natural, less edgy and frail compared to the Axioms. The Aperions felt and looked like a very well made quality speaker. The Axioms I though just looked very dated and used very cheap drivers and tweeters.

I use to really like Axioms until I started researching and doing my own in home comparisons with various ID Brands (HSU, Arx, SVS, Swan) and B&M models (PSB, B&W, Def Tech ect. ) Then I finally realized how out classed and under performing the Axioms really were. I would compare the Axioms to more budget brands like EMP and Polk Monitor series and some lower end Boston Acoustics.
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post #11 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by templemaners View Post

For 100% HT use, I don't really like either option if you listen close to reference levels. I'd look at higher sensitivity speakers for that sort of application.
If you don't watch movies at reference levels, and are OK without having that massive dynamic range, I'd rather have the Aperions.

Thanks for the info! OK, at under 3000K for a 5.0 set up, and running and Onkyo TX-NR709, what would you suggest? I am open to new ideas!
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post #12 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

If the system is really 100% HT, no 2 channel music, then you could ditch the Versus Grand Towers and get the Versus Grand Bookshelves instead. Since you are likely to set the x-over at 80Hz, having the extra bass from the towers will be kinda wasted. 2 Bookshelves are $600 while 2 towers are $1800. Then you could even get a better sub, like the PB12-Plus or Rythmik FV15HP and still overall spend less money. How big is your room and how much space do you have for the sub? Is WAF a factor?

My room is 17x20x9. And WAF is not really a concern, she appreciates a good movie, and rumbling... smile.gif What are you thinking?

Sounds like money is better spent on the sub than the towers?
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post #13 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanJE View Post

Thanks for the info! OK, at under 3000K for a 5.0 set up, and running and Onkyo TX-NR709, what would you suggest? I am open to new ideas!

I would guess he's going to refer you too Chase Hometheater PRO / SHO-10s https://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=596&category_id=28&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=142&redirected=1&Itemid=142

Seems to be really well like HT speaker. You give up extension in the midbass/bass for dynamics, sensitivity and output. If you can live with the uglyness of them they would be better than the Aperions
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post #14 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I would guess he's going to refer you too Chase Hometheater PRO / SHO-10s https://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=596&category_id=28&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=142&redirected=1&Itemid=142
Seems to be really well like HT speaker. You give up extension in the midbass/bass for dynamics, sensitivity and output. If you can live with the uglyness of them they would be better than the Aperions
They go down to 72 Hz and it says they recommend use with a sub. He was going to get a sub anyway. So is he really giving up anything?

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #15 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 12:57 PM
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I would be careful and make sure you "appreciate" the horn/wave guide tweeter before going that route (Chase). Some love them, some don't...

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #16 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RyanJE View Post

Thanks for the info! OK, at under 3000K for a 5.0 set up, and running and Onkyo TX-NR709, what would you suggest? I am open to new ideas!

Well, with a budget of 3 million, you can pretty much get whatever you want. wink.gifbiggrin.gif

I was thinking of something more along the lines of JTR's, but after looking at the prices, the mains would eat up 2/3rds of your 5.0 budget alone. I'm not too familiar with what is out there in the HE space outside of a few brands, so someone else might be more help in this area. Is this going in a dedicated theater (you know, with projector, dark walls/carpet, the whole 9 yards) or is this a more multipurpose room? You said WAF is not a factor, so that's good to know.

I will agree that towers are redundant if you're going to cross them over at 80 Hz anyways, so you can save some money there that would be better applied to the subwoofer(s)
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post #17 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 01:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RyanJE View Post

And WAF is not really a concern, she appreciates a good movie, and rumbling... smile.gif

Today, my wife added to the WAF acronym by adding another "F." She's dubbed it, "The Wife Approval Factor.......Frown." tongue.gif

eek.gif

biggrin.gif

-
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post #18 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

I would be careful and make sure you "appreciate" the horn/wave guide tweeter before going that route (Chase). Some love them, some don't...
I haven't heard anyone complaining of a harsh horn sound like you get with some of the Klipsch products.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #19 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 04:17 PM
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Option 1 all day! However +1 on the SHO-10's.
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post #20 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 04:28 PM
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Out of the two options I would pick 1. Never heard them but I owned a full M80 system, pass! The SHO-10's do not sound harsh to me but people are different. The eD cinema 12's would be my pick but I don't know if they are having troubles but it seems to be about shipping delays and bad amps in subs. I have owned their drivers and speakers with no problems. Peope are claiming bad customer service but I have not. What are your goals, listening levels, ect....?
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post #21 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 05:09 PM
 
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Well if this is your choice,I have to said option 1.


Not too long ago I was trying to decide between the Aperion verus and energy rc-70 but decide to go with the energy rc-70s for the price,performance and quality it was hard to beat.
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post #22 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 06:40 PM
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To the OP, for an HT only system you are spending way too much on speakers and not enough on subs. This is what I would get: EMP Tek E55Ti fronts, E5Bi bookshelf speakers for surrounds, E56Ci center, and either two Rythmik FV15 subs or two Hsu VTF15h. A single one of either of those subs would destroy a PB12, and two will absolutely own anyone you give a demo of your HT. I think, for the purposes of HT, the Aperions won't have much on the EMP speakers, and the Axioms certainly wouldn't be my first choice. The Chase speakers would be great too, as would the ED cinema speakers, but neither are very pretty. Obviously the system I recommended wouldn't be very good in an apartment or townhouse though, but it would be more impressive for home theater than the options you have listed guaranteed.
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post #23 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I would guess he's going to refer you too Chase Hometheater PRO / SHO-10s https://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=596&category_id=28&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=142&redirected=1&Itemid=142
Seems to be really well like HT speaker. You give up extension in the midbass/bass for dynamics, sensitivity and output. If you can live with the uglyness of them they would be better than the Aperions

I have always wondered why Chase, which seems aimed at the HT market, doesn't make a dipole surround. If you go with the SHO-10s, you are stuck with monopole surrounds which can be a problem if too close to the listening position.

Still,the SHO-10s have some serious suport on the forums and seem to really deliver on reference level HT use for a very reasonable price.

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post #24 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

I have always wondered why Chase, which seems aimed at the HT market, doesn't make a dipole surround. If you go with the SHO-10s, you are stuck with monopole surrounds which can be a problem if too close to the listening position.
Still,the SHO-10s have some serious suport on the forums and seem to really deliver on reference level HT use for a very reasonable price.

Dipoles were great for Dolby prologic days when the surrounds were not discreet. In today's multichannel music and 7 channels of discreet audio dipoles do not work as good. Of course there are exceptions for dipole use but this is not the rule.
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post #25 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 08:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Dipoles were great for Dolby prologic days when the surrounds were not discreet. In today's multichannel music and 7 channels of discreet audio dipoles do not work as good. Of course there are exceptions for dipole use but this is not the rule.

My understanding of the benefit of bipoles is their lack of true directionality, two opposing sets of speakers. The benefit is less stress is placed on the exactness of the speaker's position in relationship to each other. With today's lvrm's, surround placement is not always ideal due to doorways, kitchen pass through windows couple with cathedral ceilings and the open room design of today's modern lvrm/kit/dining area designs.

What's a poor boy to do when architectural design defeats ideal surround speaker placement in the case of bipoles such as Klipsch's RS-62 II?

fd0b297a71f9a0b8348785effad654a4.jpg?1343596520
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post #26 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

My understanding of the benefit of dipoles is their lack of true directionality, two opposing sets of speakers. The benefit is less stress is placed on the exactness of the speaker's position in relationship to each other. With today's lvrm's, surround placement is not always ideal due to doorways, kitchen pass through windows couple with cathedral ceilings and the open room design of today's modern lvrm/kit/dining area designs.
What's a poor boy to do when architectural design defeats ideal surround speaker placement in the case of dipoles such as Klipsch's RS-62 II?
fd0b297a71f9a0b8348785effad654a4.jpg?1343596520

Like I said, there are times when dipoles can work great, however the newer formats are made with directional speakers in mind, like the movie theaters. Dipoles actually work better on my back wall since my second row is against the back wall. My favorite dipoles were the M&K SS-500's and then the Klipsch KS-525's. Now I just use regular speakers in a 5 channel array and leave the back wall alone. I would rather have 5 dentical speakers but I know this does not work for everyone.
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post #27 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 08:27 PM
 
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MKtheater saw your home theater oh no that's a huge speaker on your wall for surround.

http://www.avsforum.com/gallery/image/view/album/2080316/user/7620788/id/20962
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post #28 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 08:35 PM
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LOL! That brings back some memories. That system was my first in that room. The speakers and room have changed many times since then. Those were not surround speakers. Those were 7 identical M&K S-5000 speakers and very big for bookshelves. There are more recent pics of my room with smaller surrounds.
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post #29 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 09:14 PM
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Paradigm monitors perform quite well IMO for home theater use. And they make some very nice center channels.

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post #30 of 47 Old 07-30-2012, 10:50 PM
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The klipsch ref surround speakers such as the rs-62 II's mentioned above are bipole, not dipole.
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