Speaker Shootout - eD Cinema 12's, JTR Triple 8's, CHT SHO-10's, Bill Fitzmaurice DR 250's. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 249 Old 08-05-2012, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

Just finished reading the thread and enjoyed each of the attendees' comments immensely. Sounded like a lot of fun and wish I could have participated (I could have told you guys when setting up the Orbit Shifter that you needed to add 14 feet for the horn). Biggest shock is how well the Chase SHO-10's did when compared to the JTR's. I was expecting the eD's to be the closest contender to the JTR's.
Very good stuff guys!

The eD had the highest frequency extension while the JTR and Sho-10 had a more rolled off response. Some of the compressed tracks of course sounded harsh probably because of this and more smooth on the other two due to the roll off. There are some factors that can affect the top end response picked up by the mic as mentioned in my last two posts.

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post #92 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

Greg,
I am thinking about recommending the SHO-10's to my in laws. I have a few possibly tricky questions. They have their current Polk bookshelf speakers inside of a cabinet and laying on their side. Yes I know it is pretty bad but the aesthetics of the room is very important to them. Most of the wall with the TV is a very large cabinet with several small doors like in a kitchen. The cabinets with the speakers in them have speaker grill fabric in the middle of them
So here goes:
1. How bad is it to have the speakers on their side? Is the design of the SHO-10's better or worse for this application? I have tried to get them to put them in a different cabinet so they can be placed upright. Should I push harder for them to agree to put speaker grill fabric on 2 more cabinet doors.......or maybe the SHO-10's could sound decent on their side?
2. I was thinking of constructing a baffle around the speaker to take up the extra space between the speaker and the cabinet. Good idea? Is this ok to do with the SHO-10's? I know that some speakers have their output increased with a baffle wall. I just want to make sure it won't do something bad.
3. Bonus question. They have their sub in a cabinet as well! I was thinking about doing the baffle wall thing with it too. And upgrading the 12" Polk to something else. Any ideas? The cabinet is pretty small so it can't fit much more than 16x16. I know ported would increase the output but it would have to be ported in front.
-Anybody know how the ED's would do on their side?
Thanks,
Grant
The SHO's now have a 90X90 waveguide so laying on its side is fine. You may be able to get Craig to build a SHO with altered baffle step,compensation. If not I would definitely not put them in a cabinet. Same goes for the sub. If you want a good compact one then the HSU's or the outlaw subs would work well.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #93 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

You could ask Craig if he could build a Sho-10 with minimal baffle step compensation so the bass won't overwhelm the mids and highs up next to large baffle.
BSC addresses the 6dB shift from half-space to full-space loading, which occurs over a roughly 2 octave bandwidth below where the baffle is one wavelength in dimension. Since the SHO-10 baffle is 11.5 inches wide that frequency is about 1200Hz, so BSC would not affect bass response, assuming it's in place at all.

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post #94 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post

I was told the SHO-10's will work fine in either orientation. I currently have my center SHO-10 on its side and it has been performing nicely.

As long as you don't buy my used (or others) SHO-10s with the 60x40 or 90x60 waveguide orientation or whatever it has (I forget).

Looks like others addressed the cabinet concerns.

EDIT: Just ran through the playlist via youtube HD links quick before work. You had the SHO-10s on +15? Holy cow. I'm playing this LINK to Deadmau5 on -5/-8 and my SHO-10s are pumping air that I can feel at 5 feet. I need to go look up what xmax on those things are again because this is the most I've seen the 10" driver move.

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post #95 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 07:43 AM
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16.5

There was an 80hz Crossover applied in the jriver software.

They sounded clean as a whistle.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #96 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

BSC addresses the 6dB shift from half-space to full-space loading, which occurs over a roughly 2 octave bandwidth below where the baffle is one wavelength in dimension. Since the SHO-10 baffle is 11.5 inches wide that frequency is about 1200Hz, so BSC would not affect bass response, assuming it's in place at all.

So are you saying it would affect the 1200Hz region?

Bill, could you recommend a speaker for use in a cabinet (assuming I cannot get them to modify the cabinetry somehow)? Is building the baffle wall just a bad idea? What would you do?

Is it a good idea for me to do the same with the sub?

It is hard for me to come up with another speaker with a similar price point and size. The ED's are right there though (might be a touch too big).

The JTR single 8's would fit. How would they do on their side?


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post #97 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

16.5
There was an 80hz Crossover applied in the jriver software.
They sounded clean as a whistle.

That almost seems impossible, Carp's room must apply some good boundary gains and he does not lose much spl from speaker to seat. The SHO-10's are 97 dBs sensitive so 1000 watts gets them to 127 dBs which is not possible. Their 300 watt ratings suggest 121-122 dBs RMS. 105 watt peaks plus 16.5 dBs makes 121.5 dBs. Boundary gain and inverse square law says these should have been compressing a bit at these volumes. Besides, the AVR can not produce anywhere near 300 watts at 8ohms.
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post #98 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 08:43 AM
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So the sleeper of the show were the SHO-10? biggrin.gif

Almost makes me want to buy a pair. eek.gif

I cannot believe you guys are listening to 120dB + volume. Crazy much? eek.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #99 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 08:50 AM
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How do you like those Orions AcuDef? I was looking to possibly build a pair but the xover looks really complex.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #100 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 08:58 AM
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Well, like I said before I think that I did hear some compression (I admit that I don't have golden ears). Plus that track is rap/techno and it would be more difficult to hear it on that music vs a classical or vocal piece. I think I said in my notes that I thought the mid bass was a bit muddy but at those volumes you would half expect that.

However, I was surprised how good it did sound that loud.


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post #101 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

So are you saying it would affect the 1200Hz region?
What it actually would affect is from roughly 300Hz on up, which you'd attenuate to reduce the sensitivity there to match the sensitivity below that. The easiest and most effective way to deal with the baffle step is to eliminate it, by flush mounting the speakers either into the wall or by walling them in, say with books.
Quote:
The SHO-10's are 97 dBs sensitive so 1000 watts gets them to 127 dBs which is not possible. Their 300 watt ratings suggest 121-122 dBs RMS.
I doubt they will take more than 150w before reaching xmax. That's still plenty for the average room.

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post #102 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

How do you like those Orions AcuDef? I was looking to possibly build a pair but the xover looks really complex.

I enjoy the Orions a great deal. I thought most people just buy the XO already built because it is complex. biggrin.gif

I love the fact that each Orion speaker is actively quad-amp. Makes them different. biggrin.gif

I've seen a comparison of the SHO-10 to the $6K/pr GedLee Abbey, which is interesting. I never heard any GedLee, though.
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post #103 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 09:14 AM
 
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Let's hope that a shoot-out with grown up speakers can be scheduled soon:). A suggested list: Salk; Dynaudio;Gallo; Acoustic Zen; Focal; Symphonic.
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post #104 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

My question is, how much can eq do? Can eq make my eD speakers sound every bit as good as the others or is that not possible since they don't have the same starting point? I would assume the answer is no or everyone would buy a cheap pair of speakers and then just eq to their liking.

EQ'ing loudspeakers, in the frequency range in which you are describing, is tricky business. If you could merely EQ the direct acoustic energy being reproduced by the loudspeaker, yes, EQ'ing would be OK. However, we're experiencing all the combined response of all the energy, direct and otherwise, when we listen to our systems indoors. What's missing in almost all such discussions is the mention of the time domain and phase response. We typically focus on the frequency domain, however unlocking the mystery of the time domain is where the gold is.

It's really beyond the scope of this discussion, (and I likely can't explain well anyway) however acoustically one divides the room into two parts. One part being above the transition, one below the transition, and of course the transition region. Technically, this is the Schroeder frequency. This is where the modal model transitions to the ray model. So EQing below the transition doesn't introduce the same phase problems that EQ'ing above the transition frequency does. One may be fixing one apparent issue, only to create another due to the associated wavelengths being small with regard to the bounded space.

All said, I'm not saying benefits can't be made.

The time domain. so much emphasis is given to the frequency domain, yet that's but half the picture. When the time domain examined, addressed and corrected, good things happen. Speed, fast tight bass, 3 dimensional imaging and coherency, lightning fast transients, these are some examples of what lies within the time domain.

Clearly, there are those much more qualified to expound on this topic. If one searches "minimum phase issues w/EQ" etc, there's an abundance of info.



Thanks again to all that participated in the shootout.

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post #105 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by LeonardoP View Post

Let's hope that a shoot-out with grown up speakers can be scheduled soon:). A suggested list: Salk; Dynaudio;Gallo; Acoustic Zen; Focal; Symphonic.

You mean overly expensive with no place in Home Theater applications? I'm not really interested in a shootout of speakers to expensive for anyone to own without taking a second mortgage, considering the far cheaper and better speakers out there for this type of thing.

PS: What about any of these speakers makes them not "grown up"?

If one is going to make a simplistic assessment of the value of different alignments, it would be that sealed/IB goes the lowest, at the highest cost per dB; horns have the lowest cost per dB at the expense of size, and vented box characteristics lie in between the other two. None is inherently superior across the board, neither is any inherently inferior across the board. The one to use is the one that fits your response and output needs, available space and bank account. -BFM
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post #106 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 09:31 AM
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Why would you have to EQ a speaker in order for them to sound good? eek.gif

Is that the philosophy?

"These speakers will sound great.........but only if you know how to EQ them? eek.gif
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post #107 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by LeonardoP View Post

Let's hope that a shoot-out with grown up speakers can be scheduled soon:). A suggested list: Salk; Dynaudio;Gallo; Acoustic Zen; Focal; Symphonic.

You trying to start a war here? biggrin.gif
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post #108 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Why would you have to EQ a speaker in order for them to sound good? eek.gif
Is that the fine print?
"These speakers will sound great.........but only if you know how to EQ them? eek.gif
Well ya. You have to tailor them to the room in order to get the best out of them.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #109 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Why would you have to EQ a speaker in order for them to sound good? eek.gif
Is that the philosophy?
"These speakers will sound great.........but only if you know how to EQ them? eek.gif

Read Post #63

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge - Stephen Hawking

 

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post #110 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

That almost seems impossible, Carp's room must apply some good boundary gains and he does not lose much spl from speaker to seat. The SHO-10's are 97 dBs sensitive so 1000 watts gets them to 127 dBs which is not possible. Their 300 watt ratings suggest 121-122 dBs RMS. 105 watt peaks plus 16.5 dBs makes 121.5 dBs. Boundary gain and inverse square law says these should have been compressing a bit at these volumes. Besides, the AVR can not produce anywhere near 300 watts at 8ohms.
You'd want to ask desertdome to be sure but I wasn't under any specific assumption that we were calibrated to reference. I know that the goal was to level match the speakers each time and then most of us, for the most part, kept the volume pretty consistent on our music. We also kept the volume consistent on the movie clips, but I'm pretty sure our reference was way way low. I know that tesseract was using an SPL meter at least occassionally during speakers B-D on a couple of the music tracks so you could ask him for the absolute numbers we were seeing. What I can tell you with quite a bit of certainty is we weren't asking for nor getting anywhere near 120dB out of them. If I had to guess I'd say when Jonathan pumped them up for his track we were around 105dB A-weighted (I imagine the subs were louder so if tesseract was measuring C-weighted that'd skew it). Certainly it was loud, louder than I'd ever listen to music in my home for any kind of length of time, which I think was his point in turning up the speakers for those few tracks.
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post #111 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LeonardoP View Post

Let's hope that a shoot-out with grown up speakers can be scheduled soon:). A suggested list: Salk; Dynaudio;Gallo; Acoustic Zen; Focal; Symphonic.

Schedule one and do it then.

Go have another glass of wine and see if you can get your nose just a little higher in the air. rolleyes.gif


I apologize for an out of character posting, but man this guy is rude.
its phillip likes this.


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post #112 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

EQ'ing loudspeakers, in the frequency range in which you are describing, is tricky business. If you could merely EQ the direct acoustic energy being reproduced by the loudspeaker, yes, EQ'ing would be OK. However, we're experiencing all the combined response of all the energy, direct and otherwise, when we listen to our systems indoors. What's missing in almost all such discussions is the mention of the time domain and phase response. We typically focus on the frequency domain, however unlocking the mystery of the time domain is where the gold is.
It's really beyond the scope of this discussion, (and I likely can't explain well anyway) however acoustically one divides the room into two parts. One part being above the transition, one below the transition, and of course the transition region. Technically, this is the Schroeder frequency. This is where the modal model transitions to the ray model. So EQing below the transition doesn't introduce the same phase problems that EQ'ing above the transition frequency does. One may be fixing one apparent issue, only to create another due to the associated wavelengths being small with regard to the bounded space.
All said, I'm not saying benefits can't be made.
The time domain. so much emphasis is given to the frequency domain, yet that's but half the picture. When the time domain examined, addressed and corrected, good things happen. Speed, fast tight bass, 3 dimensional imaging and coherency, lightning fast transients, these are some examples of what lies within the time domain.
Clearly, there are those much more qualified to expound on this topic. If one searches "minimum phase issues w/EQ" etc, there's an abundance of info.
Thanks again to all that participated in the shootout.

Thanks FOH, lots to chew on there and I'll look into the search you recommended. Am I safe in assuming that a simple MCACC calibration does not do much for me as far as optimizing the time domain and phase response?


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post #113 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 10:42 AM
 
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I'm just sayin......entry level speakers have their place of course but there are many out there that are looking for capable speakers for BOTH ht & music. Not sure any of the tested speakers fit that requirement.
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post #114 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Schedule one and do it then.
Go have another glass of wine and see if you can get your nose just a little higher in the air. rolleyes.gif
I apologize for an out of character posting, but man this guy is rude.
I'd actually love to have an entire day dedicated for a blind speaker shootout between the Salks (maybe SS8's and HT2-TL's), maybe some Philharmonic 3's, the Ascend towers with the RAAL, JTR T12's, Seaton Cat 12's, Triad Plats and a few others that folks wanted, making sure some of the folks coming were 2 channel guys, some HT guys, some both, and some speaker newbs (namely me). I mean, who wouldn't want to get a chance to hear all of those speakers in the same room with the same material, a nice mix of various kinds of music and movies? Especially truly blinded where you wouldn't be influenced by any kind of bias. All we need is people willing to travel with these speakers or someone willing to put up the 50k+ to obtain them all. Since LeonardoP feels so strongly about it maybe he'd kick in a good chunk? I foresee nothing but good and amazing results from such an event cool.gif. Of course, we'd have to forbid Jonathan from pumping up the volume quite so much because I think that'd be a bit of a giveaway.
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post #115 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 11:06 AM
 
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Now you are talking my friend!
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post #116 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by LeonardoP View Post

I'm just sayin......entry level speakers have their place of course but there are many out there that are looking for capable speakers for BOTH ht & music. Not sure any of the tested speakers fit that requirement.

Your grown up speakers would no be able to perform well in my room for HT so it is not as simple as you say. Both HT and music? There are many variables for each person.
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post #117 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 11:09 AM
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Seems to me that music was a big part of this comparison.

LeoP,
Why are you even posting in this thread if any of the speakers identified very clearly in the title are of no interest or fall well below your rather confused and limited scope of acceptability?


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post #118 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

I'd actually love to have an entire day dedicated for a blind speaker shootout between the Salks (maybe SS8's and HT2-TL's), maybe some Philharmonic 3's, the Ascend towers with the RAAL, JTR T12's, Seaton Cat 12's, Triad Plats and a few others that folks wanted, making sure some of the folks coming were 2 channel guys, some HT guys, some both, and some speaker newbs (namely me). I mean, who wouldn't want to get a chance to hear all of those speakers in the same room with the same material, a nice mix of various kinds of music and movies? Especially truly blinded where you wouldn't be influenced by any kind of bias. All we need is people willing to travel with these speakers or someone willing to put up the 50k+ to obtain them all. Since LeonardoP feels so strongly about it maybe he'd kick in a good chunk? I foresee nothing but good and amazing results from such an event cool.gif. Of course, we'd have to forbid Jonathan from pumping up the volume quite so much because I think that'd be a bit of a giveaway.

I agree that would be really cool. However, if we can't crank up the speakers how would we know that the "grown up" speakers are up to the task for HT or even loud music? That would defeat the purpose for me, like you've said before I'm sure a lot of those speakers sound amazing at 85db but what happens when you want to let loose.


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post #119 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post

Seems to me that music was a big part of this comparison.
LeoP,
Why are you even posting in this thread if any of the speakers identified very clearly in the title are of no interest or fall well below your rather confused and limited scope of acceptability?

That's because music is more important. tongue.gifwink.gifsmile.gif

Seriously, you are right we did spend more time on music than movies. That was mostly due to the fact that we selected our own clips to play and some of us *ahem* went a little overboard on the time. redface.gif

It was a nice change of pace, the other GTG's I've been to we spent more time on movie clips. I did feel like movie clips were well represented though, I was really impressed with the Open Range scene and the Book of Eli shootout.


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post #120 of 249 Old 08-06-2012, 11:29 AM
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Sounds like you all had fun. It is always interesting to see how hard it is to pick out speakers when blinded.
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