Clarification on technological advancements in tweeters - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 83 Old 08-03-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Not being contentious, merely curious: So what exactly is it that some us are hearing when the speakers produce weird sounds when trying to play tones above the frequencies where they roll off?
I've tried playing test tones from 8kHz to 20kHz on various different systems ranging from headphones to laptop speakers to separate PC speakers to my own sound system as well as a couple of other HT setups. In my 2-channel/HT setup, I can hear the 16kHz test tones, in other systems, I don't hear anything above 12kHz, but in some systems, trying to play the same tones above 13-14kHz results in either the 'clack' noise that some folks have mentioned hearing, or a weird tone that is NOT the same as the pure tones heard on my HT system, or the pure tones heard below the offending frequencies.
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'Clack' noise probably indicates clipping in the electronics, the result of pushing them too hard trying to get a high frequency tone loud enough to hear.

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post #62 of 83 Old 08-03-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Working with the last two posts by RicardoJoa and flyng_fool, I'm going with a more mundane, my speaker is better than your speaker. Looking at the whole tweeter thing in light of hearing ability (pragmatism), once the human threshold is exceeded, is there a point to anything other than bragging rights?

My speaker's frequency response is listed as 55 Hz - 60 kHz. Now I don't think anyone is saying that there is any musical information that high or that anyone would hear anything that high. What it says is that they will handle 12 kHz with ease... as it is not anywhere near their capability limits.

The ribbon tweeters in those 2-way speakers are crossed over at 2.3 kHz. As they are bi-wire capable speakers, out of curiosity the other day I listened to the tweeters by themselves. It is very surprising how little musical sound there actually is even just above 2 kHz.
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post #63 of 83 Old 08-03-2012, 08:01 PM
 
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For comparative purposes, some might find this hearing test link interesting.

Found another.

I punched out at 14kHz. I had our 24yr old son come in and he ripped the headphone off at the 14kHz setting; my sound level. After turning the volume control down, he was good all the way up to where it ended at 18kHz.

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post #64 of 83 Old 08-03-2012, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

'Clack' noise probably indicates clipping in the electronics, the result of pushing them too hard trying to get a high frequency tone loud enough to hear.
So why would it only make the noise with the higher frequency test tones when I never touched the volume control?


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post #65 of 83 Old 08-04-2012, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

As they are bi-wire capable speakers, out of curiosity the other day I listened to the tweeters by themselves. It is very surprising how little musical sound there actually is even just above 2 kHz.

Really? My Focus SE's are a 4-way design with crossovers at 120Hz, 2.8kHz and 8kHz. I can hear quite a bit coming from the 8kHz and up AMT tweeter, and quite a lot of content coming through the 2.8kHz - 8kHz ribbon mid-tweeter. Then again, I guess it might depend a great deal on what kind of music you listen to. Granted, it obviously isn't as much as what comes out of the 2 Rohacell mids that play from 120Hz to 2.8kHz, but I certainly wouldn't like the sound if the twweter and mid-tweeter were taken out. As I mentioned, cymbals sound dead with speakers that roll off above 12kHz and the higher notes on violins sound dull.


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post #66 of 83 Old 08-04-2012, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Really? My Focus SE's are a 4-way design with crossovers at 120Hz, 2.8kHz and 8kHz. I can hear quite a bit coming from the 8kHz and up AMT tweeter, and quite a lot of content coming through the 2.8kHz - 8kHz ribbon mid-tweeter.

Have you listened to the tweeters by themselves with the other drivers disconnected? I'm not just talking about holding your ear up near the tweeters while the whole speaker is playing. I found it quite surprising what this sounds like.
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post #67 of 83 Old 08-05-2012, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Really? My Focus SE's are a 4-way design with crossovers at 120Hz, 2.8kHz and 8kHz. I can hear quite a bit coming from the 8kHz and up AMT tweeter, and quite a lot of content coming through the 2.8kHz - 8kHz ribbon mid-tweeter.

Have you listened to the tweeters by themselves with the other drivers disconnected? I'm not just talking about holding your ear up near the tweeters while the whole speaker is playing. I found it quite surprising what this sounds like.
No, not with the Focus SE's. They are bi-ampable so I can remove the jumpers and just run wires to the top terminals, but that means the mids that run from 120Hz - 2.8kHz are also active. I tried covering the mids, but I guess everything is relative.

When I say there is a lot of content coming from the 2.8kHz - 8kHz tweeter and the 8kHz+ tweeter, I don't mean that there is so much there that I could listen to just the tweeters without any of the other drivers playing. What I mean is that there is more than enough audible content coming from them that I couldn't imagine playing music without them. I can cover just the 8kHz+ tweeter and hear a marked difference in the sound.


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post #68 of 83 Old 08-06-2012, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Hspecialist View Post

Randy, Audiometric testing is done to establish a threshold and varies greatly depending on the persons hearing sensitivity from the get go. I sometimes start testing at levels of 45db HL and toggle to find the legal classification of a threshold which is hearing the softest sound 50% of the time. Now we are comparing ones hearing sensitivity in comparison to Audiometric 0db HL (Hearing Level, add 20db for SPL) from 125hz to 8K. There are some high frequency audiometry that can be done for sounds past 8K but all language, vowels and consonants are all within these boundaries of 125hz and 8k, all regulated by ANSI Standards and the FDA. For someone that has greater hearing loss I obviously start at a higher presentation level and always start at 1K per recommendation of the FDA and also 1K is the easiest to hear. The average ear canal resonates at 2700hz for normal adults and the smaller the ear the higher the resonating freq and also the bigger the ear the lower freq. We have the ability to measure in-ear SPL and measure real-ear frequency response as one sits in their listening position. technology, technology...wink.gif
btw, i'm a Hearing Specialist to and test people's hearing daily.
Thanks, appreciate the info.
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post #69 of 83 Old 08-06-2012, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I just tried this online test:
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencycheckhigh.php
I can hear 16kHz tones (JLab earbuds). biggrin.gif
This is on my Motorola Xoom tablet. Without earbuds, I can easily hear 15kHz. biggrin.gif
Just tried w/ my EVO 4G phone using JLab earbuds. I can hear 16kHz tones also.

Whoa, cool! 35 years old, lifelong music lover but I've generally avoided loud noises. Frankly, I've always suspected that my hearing was a little bit better than that of most people I've known. Per this test, I can hear above 18kHz but my hearing starts becoming strong and clear at 18kHz.

I never realized that the tones between 18kHz and 12kHz are so weird-sounding, especially coming from my speakers--there's a palpable sensation that's not totally unlike bass pressurization, and these are noises that I want to think mostly happen outdoors in the summer, or in nature shows about insects. Freaky! Thanks!

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post #70 of 83 Old 08-07-2012, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Sorry, but I just couldn't let this slide.

(snip)

The average adult who hasn't suffered severe hearing damage/loss from dangling lit firecrackers next to their ears, can generally hear to about 15-16kHz. Younger folks (and some older folks who are very fortunate, or have taken precautions to avoid exposure to high SPL's) can hear anywhere up to 22kHz (few folks, even young ones can hear higher than that, but many playback systems likely produce distortion/harmonics in the audible range when attempting to play that high).

There's a site called Mosquito Ringtones specifically meant for young folks with cellphones. It has ringtones ranging from 22kHz down to ~15kHz. As the site details, "most adults can't hear much past 15kHz, so listen to all the tones and use the highest audible frequency, and you can now have your cellphone ring in class and your teachers will probably never hear it".

(snip) Max
Sorry, but I just couldn't let this slide.

From a practical point of view, as much as I hate to admit it, commysyman is making the right point: people in this forum are living in a fantasy world about what they hear from tweeters. He just has the wrong numbers.

As you point out, from about 20, people lose their ability to hear higher frequencies, except when the sound is amplified well above any kind of normal listening volume. Failure to acknowledge that fact has led to endless spew in these forums. Everyone imagines they are better than average, one of those mythical grown ups who can hear 22khz. Just like everyone thinks they are a better than average driver.

I'm surprised you didn't call out the completely absurd comment from the guy who claims he can hear 26 khz.
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post #71 of 83 Old 08-07-2012, 04:43 PM
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Watch out with the random hearing tests. Two hazards: One, your equipment won't actually reproduce high frequencies. Or two, more dangerous, it will - and you turn it up way too loud in order to try to hear it. Set the volume with a more audible frequency, and leave it there.
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post #72 of 83 Old 08-07-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero.exe View Post

Did I accidentally start something? o_O
haha anyway I was totally unaware most music doesn't have frequencies above 6khz. I Learn something new everyday =)
But the ill-logical question underlies in my mind of "what is better" between the Dynaudio Silks VS the Focal Beryllium.
So lets do this. Ill ask 2 Questions, everyone give me 2 answers. They should be one word answers.
(1) What do you think is better, Dynaudio Silks OR Focal Beryllium?
(2) What do you PREFER, Dynaudio Silks OR Focal Beryllium?
Lets see what we come up with. Im Very curios. Thanks guys for your participation. =)



there is no answer possible to that question.

I have in total 7 identical Focal speakers with the Beryllium tweeter in my homecinema since a couple of years, so I would rather say I know this tweeter you mentioned.

I also have in my other system 3 ribbon tweeters (magnetostatic), and another system with AMT (air motion transformer).


But I would never say, "it is the best". There are so many factors, defining the ability of a speaker, to reproduce the signal, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to say one system is better as the other.
Every technology has it pros and cons.


On the one hand there a the high end dome-tweeters out of beryllium or diamond. Theese materials have no internal resonances in the audible range, so in fact there are extremly few distortions in the sound. But they are not perfect at all. Higher amount of moving mass, imperfect directivity and very sensitive so they need a covering (which impacts the sound too).

On the second hand there are silk domes, wich can be extremly good to (like the Scan Speak Revelator, or some from ATC).

ribbon tweeters are mentioned earlier in this thread. They are good either, but not "the best" too. Because of some technical issues that limit theese systems (power handling for example).

Air Motion Transformers (AMT) are really goot either.

Not to forget about Ion-tweeters, where the sound is emitted from a morphing ion-plasma-ball.



For every type of speaker you find people who will bet for "it is the best".


After years of listening to many speakers (budget up to highest end) and building my own speakers, I say now: There is no "best". Every speaker is a compromise. It depends on what you need and what the conditions (room, acoustic, sound level, distance .... ) are.
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post #73 of 83 Old 08-08-2012, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Sorry, but I just couldn't let this slide.

(snip)

The average adult who hasn't suffered severe hearing damage/loss from dangling lit firecrackers next to their ears, can generally hear to about 15-16kHz. Younger folks (and some older folks who are very fortunate, or have taken precautions to avoid exposure to high SPL's) can hear anywhere up to 22kHz (few folks, even young ones can hear higher than that, but many playback systems likely produce distortion/harmonics in the audible range when attempting to play that high).

There's a site called Mosquito Ringtones specifically meant for young folks with cellphones. It has ringtones ranging from 22kHz down to ~15kHz. As the site details, "most adults can't hear much past 15kHz, so listen to all the tones and use the highest audible frequency, and you can now have your cellphone ring in class and your teachers will probably never hear it".

(snip) Max
Sorry, but I just couldn't let this slide.

From a practical point of view, as much as I hate to admit it, commysyman is making the right point: people in this forum are living in a fantasy world about what they hear from tweeters. He just has the wrong numbers.

As you point out, from about 20, people lose their ability to hear higher frequencies, except when the sound is amplified well above any kind of normal listening volume. Failure to acknowledge that fact has led to endless spew in these forums. Everyone imagines they are better than average, one of those mythical grown ups who can hear 22khz. Just like everyone thinks they are a better than average driver.

I'm surprised you didn't call out the completely absurd comment from the guy who claims he can hear 26 khz.

If you're familiar with the equal loudness contours, then you would already know that human hearing is most sensitive in the midrange and least sensitive to the highest and lowest frequencies.

Someone linked one of the sites I've played around with before that allows you to play with a cursory form of your own personal equal loudness contour. You begin by adjusting the volume at 1kHz, then adjust all the other frequencies so they sound approximately equal in loudness to the 1kHz tone. You can then see how your curve compares.

I'll repeat once again, someone who can't hear beyond 6-7kHz has significant hearing damage, and someone who can't hear beyond 4.5kHz has severe hearing damage.

As far as the claims of hearing 26kHz, although I wouldn't say it's completely impossible, what I DID say was that a lot of playback equipment produces distortion trying to play some of the higher frequencies and these are potentially what folks are hearing. I've personally observed this on some setups and it was very obvious on one setup in particular where I could hear the 16kHz tone, but not the 17, 18 or 19 kHz tones, but I began hearing something again with the 20kHz tone and what I heard was actually progressively louder with the 21, 22 and 23kHz tones. They weren't like the pure tones that I heard up to 16kHz though, which is why I surmised that it was distortion I was hearing from the metal dome tweeters.


Max
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post #74 of 83 Old 08-08-2012, 12:39 PM
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Do you apply that curve via equalization to music you play through your system.
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post #75 of 83 Old 08-08-2012, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Do you apply that curve via equalization to music you play through your system.
No need to. That is the way we naturally hear. Equal SPLs at different frequencies will have different apparent perceived loudness.

The poster inferred/assumed that if your hearing is undamaged, you should be able to hear all frequencies equally at the same volume level and that assumption is incorrect. If you try that test in the link, you can see if your hearing has significant differences from the normal equal loudness contours. Granted, it's just a rough picture and also completely depends on the playback system's ability to play back ALL the frequencies in the test with a FLAT frequency response. If the playback system is incapable of playing back some of the frequencies, then you wouldn't know if you're not hearing the frequency because YOU can't or because your system can't play it.

In addition, if the playback system is not calibrated and measured to ensure it reproduces a flat FR, then you also wouldn't know if needing to turn the volume of certain frequencies up or down to hear them at apparent equal loudness is due to deficiencies in your hearing at said frequencies or due to a dip or peak in the frequency response of the playback setup at those frequencies. If you look at the FR measurements of headphones at the one headphone website, you'll notice that most headphones don't really have a flat FR, so we'd need to keep that in mind when using tests like this.

If someone has a calibrated flat playback system measured with something like REW or Omnimic to confirm a flat FR though, they can use that test to give them a rough idea of their own equal loudness contour. If it deviates significantly from the standard contours, an appointment with an audiologist might be a good idea.


Max
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post #76 of 83 Old 08-08-2012, 05:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Do you apply that curve via equalization to music you play through your system.

FWIW, when I can, I do. For me, doing this, considerably improves the listening experience.
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post #77 of 83 Old 08-08-2012, 05:38 PM
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Utter nonsense. The normal upper hearing range of the average middle aged male is between 12-14kHz.

I can hear 16k according to the website posted on this page. Guess I'm one of the luck ones. I'm 32 now, but have been exposed to high SPL since a baby. My father was a DJ so we had loud music going in our home. 4 15" subs blasting on a daily basis and countless exposure to clubs/venues also biggrin.gif
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post #78 of 83 Old 08-08-2012, 05:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Del Cosmos View Post

I can hear 16k according to the website posted on this page. Guess I'm one of the luck ones. I'm 32 now, but have been exposed to high SPL since a baby. My father was a DJ so we had loud music going in our home. 4 15" subs blasting on a daily basis and countless exposure to clubs/venues also biggrin.gif

With all due respect, thirty-two doesn't qualify as middle age. As a sixty year old, middle age is more a forty-five or fifty year old thing. Think "middle age" crisis. I don't know any thirty-two year olds suffering from a middle age crisis. smile.gif
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post #79 of 83 Old 08-08-2012, 05:57 PM
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Hahaha.... I'm suffering from it man.wink.gif
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In that case, here's a cigar and a decent bourbon to help with the conversation.

cool.gif

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Much appreciated
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post #82 of 83 Old 08-08-2012, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I don't know any thirty-two year olds suffering from a middle age crisis. smile.gif

I had mine in the mid/end twenties. So now you know one biggrin.gif
the term "middle age crisis" didnt refer to a special age. It is only a possible change of ones view, which some encounter earlier, some later and some never in their life.



could it be, that we're little off topic ? rolleyes.gif
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post #83 of 83 Old 08-08-2012, 09:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If that happened they would not 'produce' distortion, they simply would roll off the content at 12kHz. Technically that is distortion, as the output signal is not the same as the input signal, but the result would hardly be catastrophic. As for the audible difference between a 12kHz and 16kHz ceiling, that's a difference of only 1/3 octave at the weakest end of the content spectrum. Few listeners capable of hearing 16kHz would notice it.

Yep, rolloff is a form of distortion because the speaker is not outputting what has been input to it. Thats why I always get a chuckle when a i hear guys say, ". I love these speakers because they are sooooo warm sounding and accurate and I can listen to them for hours.". By warm what they are usually talking about is a rolled off speaker in the mids and uppers which does not produce the highs as it should, thus giving the feeling of being pleasant to listen to for hours. It may be pleasant, it may be warm or cold depending on perception, but it definitely is not accurate when its doing that. biggrin.gif
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