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post #1 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Room size: 14x20x8 L-shaped room

Currently I have Klipsch rb-61 II's in the front of my home theater.. they actually sound great but I'm guessing they can't keep up with 2 15 inch subs.. so I'm looking for some nice fronts that can really drive the low end well, around 40 to 60 Hz and up.. I'm worried that if I upgrade to something that only has 2 6.5" woofers I won't be happy with the low end.. so I'm looking for something that can really drive the 60 Hz range home..

Appearance isn't a major concern nor size really (to an extent). I would be moving the rb-61's to the rear.. I am not really worried about matching so any brand will do.. It will mostly be for movies but I'd like them to be able to really drive on music as well.. I'd like to stay under 400 bucks for a pair and am open to suggestions. I don't want a long wait time (keep that in mind when recommending some ID vendors).

I'll be driving them with a denon 2113ci...

thanks,
Mike
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post #2 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 11:23 AM
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The number and size of the woofers is less relevant then what they're actually capable of doing, so I don't know if that should be your overriding concern.

A tower speaker that's very well regarded, and costs half of what you're looking to spend, is the Pioneer SP-FS51-LR. It should be solid down to 50Hz, so it meets your frequency response needs and costs a lot less then it's sound quality would lead you to believe.

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post #3 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

The number and size of the woofers is less relevant then what they're actually capable of doing, so I don't know if that should be your overriding concern.
A tower speaker that's very well regarded, and costs half of what you're looking to spend, is the Pioneer SP-FS51-LR. It should be solid down to 50Hz, so it meets your frequency response needs and costs a lot less then it's sound quality would lead you to believe.

I'm worried that the Pioneer's wouldn't be much of an upgrade.. the rb-61's are rated down to 45 Hz:

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 45Hz-24KHz ± 3dB

I would be worried that since the pioneers are rated at 130 watts that I wouldn't be getting the drive from the 60 Hz range I'm looking for.. this is speculation though on my part as I haven't heard them. I want LR (mains) that can can keep up with the 15" subs I have now so I can set the crossover at or around 80 Hz... Right now my subs are set to 120 Hz to help with the rb 61's output (aka not enough).. this was automatically set by Audyessey...

thanks,
Mike
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post #4 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 12:28 PM
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Whats your budget?

What are you subs?
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post #5 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Whats your budget?
What are you subs?

Budget is around 400...

I have 2 15" lms-r in 6 cubic foot boxes with an ep4000 powering them.

as I mentioned in first post I'm open to suggestions..

thanks,
Mike
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post #6 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeciccarelli View Post

I'm worried that the Pioneer's wouldn't be much of an upgrade.. the rb-61's are rated down to 45 Hz:
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 45Hz-24KHz ± 3dB
The Klipsch was measured -6db at 45hz, by HT Labs.

The Boston A360 has a bigger cabinet than Klipsch, and is $400 a pair new.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/BOSA360WHA/BOSTON-ACOUSTICS-A360-3-Way-Dual-6.5in-Tower-Speaker-Each-White/1.html

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #7 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 01:04 PM
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Yeah the LMS-R doesn't have that midbass punch that alot of people look for, great lower extension.

Polk Monitor 70s have great bass 4 6.5" woofers. About $100 over you budget at Newegg.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290208
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post #8 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 01:43 PM
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I think you have things turned on their head. You are trying to solve the wrong problem! You do not need new speakers. Buying new speakers and making the same wrong adjustments will just give you the same problem over again.

The front speakers you are using are rated to go down to 45 Hz, and you should be allowing them to do what they can do. Setting the subwoofers to go so high is a really really BAD idea because you will never get them to operate IN-PHASE with the main speakers, and they are FIGHTING each other rather than aiding each other.

I think what you are having a problem with is CANCELLATION; the subwoofers are cancelling the output of your main speakers rather than helping them in the 50 to 100 Hz range, because you don't have them phased properly.

Set the fronts to operate full-range, and set your subwoofers to only operate up to 50 or 60 Hz MAXIMUM! Play with their maximum operating frequency adjustment in the 50 Hz area until the subs and main speakers work together best.

Limiting the output of your subwoofers to 50 or 60 Hz maximum should improve your bass a LOT. If you have a phase control on the subwoofers you should repeatedly play the same bass-heavy passage from a CD or other source and fine-tune the phase control to minimize the cancellation problem.

A good way to find out how much bass your main speakers really HAVE is to turn off the subwoofers, turn Audessy completely OFF, and run your front speakers with no limits on them. I think you be amazed at how much bass they have when nothing is screwing with them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeciccarelli View Post

I'm worried that the Pioneer's wouldn't be much of an upgrade.. the rb-61's are rated down to 45 Hz:
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 45Hz-24KHz ± 3dB
I would be worried that since the pioneers are rated at 130 watts that I wouldn't be getting the drive from the 60 Hz range I'm looking for.. this is speculation though on my part as I haven't heard them. I want LR (mains) that can can keep up with the 15" subs I have now so I can set the crossover at or around 80 Hz... Right now my subs are set to 120 Hz to help with the rb 61's output (aka not enough).. this was automatically set by Audyessey...
thanks,
Mike
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post #9 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Yeah the LMS-R doesn't have that midbass punch that alot of people look for, great lower extension.
Polk Monitor 70s have great bass 4 6.5" woofers. About $100 over you budget at Newegg.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290208

Yeah these don't look too bad.. I'd have to shop around or wait for a newegg coupon code for these..

thanks,
Mike
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post #10 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

IThe front speakers you are using are rated to go down to 45 Hz, and you should be allowing them to do what they can do.

A 6.5" woofer in a small enclosure doesn't have much output below 60-70hrz. If the OP has TC Sounds LMS-R 15"s those have crazy output down low but not much in the midbass region (slam factor). I totally agree with the OP that the small bookshelfs just can't keep up with those monster drivers.

At his budget something has to give though. He isn't going to find a high end no to little comprimsing tower. The Polk and the Boston seem to fit his needs, the Polk will edge out the BA in the bass and output but the Boston will have a more refined midrange and much much nicer tweeter. Still miss my old VRs frown.gif .
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post #11 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

A 6.5" woofer in a small enclosure doesn't have much output below 60-70hrz. If the OP has TC Sounds LMS-R 15"s those have crazy output down low but not much in the midbass region (slam factor). I totally agree with the OP that the small bookshelfs just can't keep up with those monster drivers.
At his budget something has to give though. He isn't going to find a high end no to little comprimsing tower. The Polk and the Boston seem to fit his needs, the Polk will edge out the BA in the bass and output but the Boston will have a more refined midrange and much much nicer tweeter. Still miss my old VRs frown.gif .

yeah I got made fun of for only having bookshelves with lms-r's in DIY speakers/subs (not made fun of, but it was pointed out by 3+ people I'm lacking a bit on the 60-80+ range)... I have B&W 683's in my main living room and they work nicely but I think they would be a bit overkill in the basement (basement is kinda my "fun" setup).. Not necessarily looking for complete refinement.. more so a bit loud and filling in the 60-80+ Hz range. Seems like to me the Polk 70's would be the cheaper alternative to the 683's...

thanks,
Mike
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post #12 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 02:44 PM
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That is nonsense. The Monitor Audio Bronze BX-2 goes down to 42 Hz.

The amount of bass you get from a driver does not depend just on the diameter, but the size and quality of the magnet structure, the loading of the enclosure and porting, the maximum excursion of the driver, and other factors. To ignore all of those factors and just talk about driver diameter displays a considerable ignorance of speaker design.

There are speakers with a single 6.5 inch driver that only go down to 70 Hz, and there are some that go down to almost 40 Hz (+-3db).

LIKE I SAID, the simple way to find out how much bass they have is to RUN THEM BY THEMSELVES....duhhhhh.... with no Audessy or anything else putting limits on them. How freaking hard is that to do??? A very simple test that will prove what is what without any questions or theoretical BS.

When all else fails, do what makes sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

A 6.5" woofer in a small enclosure doesn't have much output below 60-70hrz. If the OP has TC Sounds LMS-R 15"s those have crazy output down low but not much in the midbass region (slam factor). I totally agree with the OP that the small bookshelfs just can't keep up with those monster drivers.
At his budget something has to give though. He isn't going to find a high end no to little comprimsing tower. The Polk and the Boston seem to fit his needs, the Polk will edge out the BA in the bass and output but the Boston will have a more refined midrange and much much nicer tweeter. Still miss my old VRs frown.gif .
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post #13 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

The Klipsch was measured -6db at 45hz, by HT Labs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

That is nonsense. The Monitor Audio Bronze BX-2 goes down to 42 Hz.
The amount of bass you get from a driver does not depend just on the diameter, but the size and quality of the magnet structure, the loading of the enclosure and porting, the maximum excursion of the driver, and other factors. To ignore all of those factors and just talk about driver diameter displays a considerable ignorance of speaker design.
There are speakers with a single 6.5 inch driver that only go down to 70 Hz, and there are some that go down to almost 40 Hz (+-3db).
LIKE I SAID, the simple way to find out how much bass they have is to RUN THEM BY THEMSELVES....duhhhhh.... with no Audessy or anything else putting limits on them. How freaking hard is that to do??? A very simple test that will prove what is what without any questions or theoretical BS.
When all else fails, do what makes sense.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/klipsch-reference-rb-61-ii-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

Also just because a bookshelf or other speaker can reach down to 42hrz doesn't mean its a good idea. You lose output, distortion increases, dynamics suffer, port chuffing at high volumes, midrange can stuff as well ect.... Don't forget crossing a speaker at 80hrz or 60hrz isn't a brick wall its a gradual slop.
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post #14 of 17 Old 08-07-2012, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeciccarelli View Post

yeah I got made fun of for only having bookshelves with lms-r's in DIY speakers/subs (not made fun of, but it was pointed out by 3+ people I'm lacking a bit on the 60-80+ range)... I have B&W 683's in my main living room and they work nicely but I think they would be a bit overkill in the basement (basement is kinda my "fun" setup).. Not necessarily looking for complete refinement.. more so a bit loud and filling in the 60-80+ Hz range. Seems like to me the Polk 70's would be the cheaper alternative to the 683's...

Just 'cause you have those killer subs and they definitely could deserve good speakers smile.gif, I'll throw this out there even though it's a little over your budget. Energy V6.2's for $300 each.

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post #15 of 17 Old 08-08-2012, 03:55 AM
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Since you have two subs and i looked the specs they can play high enough for you to x them at around 100hz. Put the bookshelves up ontop the sub to make a three way speaker. The problem you may encounter is phase with the main, but with a receiver should help you with that by playing with distance setting and proper slope on the sub. You may want to invest in some bass management that peq your sub like minidsp. just my thoughts.
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post #16 of 17 Old 08-15-2012, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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well I went ahead and got the polk 70's series II as they were recently onsale again. Only took 2 days to get them shipped to me. I hooked them up last night and they really fill the room quite a bit more. The sound quality isn't bad at all.. I have them crossed at 80 Hz and set to small so the subs still kick in for music.

I wouldn't say they sound better than my Klipsch they replaced but definitely fill the room and I can hear the lower end much more... The tweeter in the polk isn't as loud and I kind of like this compared to the klipsch. For the cost I really consider this a nice budget friendly upgrade. Watching music and movies I could really hear a major difference.

thanks,
Mike
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post #17 of 17 Old 08-15-2012, 09:47 AM
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Thats great. Glad your happy. Larger cabinet, deeper tune, and 4x the driver surface areas makes a big difference. You could even get away with crossing even lower, 60hrz would work with those too.
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