Amplifier for Revel Salon2 for 10K or less. - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 460 Old 08-21-2012, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tom1040x View Post

The point that I wanted to make about the Marantz mono blocks was that a good deal can be reached on these models on the used market which is where I purchased mine. Since they are coming out with a new reference makes these attainable now-before, @ 12K, was out of reach for me and perhaps a few others.
I am also a fan of a high current amp. According to Marantz specs, these produce 150 amps peak current when called upon. From what I know, this is a good measure of the control the amp has over a speaker system-esp. the woofers. Also, since the amp is rated 300 wpc/8 ohms and double down to 600 wpc/4 ohms, would seem to make it ideal for the Revels.
However, there are a lot of great amps. A lot of them appear in this thread. Good luck in your quest!!! I would love to hear those speakers with whatever amp you choose. smile.gifsmile.gif

I agree; I wasn't originally thinking of the price difference / scoring a good deal on the old model. smile.gif I am excited for the new model announcement, even though I suspect the MSRP may be as high as 8K each. frown.gif
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post #272 of 460 Old 08-21-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

His room is not even finished. Why do people assume its bad even before the room is 100% completed? Even before it's measured?
Rugs, drapes, curtains, sofas, books, plants, oil paintings, and other things in this big room will contribute.
But I would rather take a great speaker in an average room than take an average speaker in a great room.
Let him measure the room before putting up large acoustic panels.
But let's say he doesn't measure the room. And what if the Salon2 still sound fabulous compared to everything else he has heard?
Why would he want to add acoustic panels if the sound is already awesome?
Because I don't wanna wait that's why! So there! NYAH!tongue.gif

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post #273 of 460 Old 08-21-2012, 06:21 PM
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A very good option would be a Denon AVR 4311 (~$1300) and either an ATI AT3003 or Parasound Halo A31 for the front 3. You can use the 4311 to drive the surrounds, more than adequate. This would give you very good at a great price and down the road you can decide if upgrades are worth it. I have tried the XT32 Koolaid and haven't decided if I like it, still not a fan of DSP for music.

P.S. No 20 amp circuits required.

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post #274 of 460 Old 08-21-2012, 06:38 PM
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What benefit does the ATI have over just a receiver? Why is the Denon 4311 better than a budget receiver?

Can someone post a link to a peer reviewed study on the inaudibility of differences between amps?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #275 of 460 Old 08-21-2012, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

What benefit does the ATI have over just a receiver? Why is the Denon 4311 better than a budget receiver?
Can someone post a link to a peer reviewed study on the inaudibility of differences between amps?

ATI? Current capability. 4311 - 9.2 (expandable to 11.2?), 140 wpc. XT32 at least for HT.

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post #276 of 460 Old 08-21-2012, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

I've listen to enough amps, been a member of a number of forums and read enough studies over the years (almost finished with this) to know that I'm never going to change the mind of a "believer".
What I own is irrelevant.
I suggested a $9500 amp to the OP in this thread, but not because I think it will sound better than any other recommendation made. If he has $10k buring a hole in his pocket who am I to say he should only spend $1500 to get the same results?
This economy needs all the stimulation it can get.

Matt34, This is supposed to somewhat fun. I was just asking to be curious. From one enthusiast to another.
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post #277 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

In the context of new (used can be a very different matter) equipment purchase, generally taking your aggregate budget a better system could be had with $11,500 in speaker and $1K in amplification vs $5750 in speaker and $6700 in amp. It's something I would be willing to bet pink slips on.
Your JBL 1400's could be driven with a couple of Crown amps bridged (effectively two mono-blocks). I doubt that your SQ would suffer and you would have $5700 to spend elsewhere.

Perhaps it could. Do you know for sure? I had a McIntosh MC402 with these speakers at first. The HF and MF were great-bass sucked. In retrospect, I bet that a lot of amps could drive these speakers well. However, the OP had asked opinions on his Revels. My first post in recommending the Marantz was supported by a review which I happen to feel was spot on with MY evaluation of the amps. It was meant as an attempt to help the OP with his choice-not a downright dump on any Crown or other amp.

I have to say that there are a lot of differences on this board-mostly contentious. I find it a bit odd that everyone seems to think their opinion is the last word-case closed. I have an open mind and am fairly new to this hobby.

Again, good luck to the OP. You have many choices. Make the best choice you can.smile.gifbiggrin.gif:D
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post #278 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by tom1040x View Post

Perhaps it could. Do you know for sure?

If we are being honest the inverse is also true. You also don't know that they wouldn't.
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Originally Posted by tom1040x View Post

However, the OP had asked opinions on his Revels. My first post in recommending the Marantz was supported by a review which I happen to feel was spot on with MY evaluation of the amps. It was meant as an attempt to help the OP with his choice-not a downright dump on any Crown or other amp.

I think the contention rests with the absolutes that are stated around here unfortunately. The big issue and one people have so far been unable to poke any hole into is that somehow the SQ on the Crown amps are a compromise. I didn't see you bagging on the Crowns BTW. The OP will be best served by auditioning in his room. My belief (and it is a belief) that when he throws a towel over two competent amps for the Revels that the he will be hard pressed to tell the difference and pick out the pro-audio piece stone cold blind.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #279 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 07:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

My belief (and it is a belief) that when he throws a towel over two competent amps for the Revels that the he will be hard pressed to tell the difference and pick out the pro-audio piece stone cold blind.

My amplifier hates having towels thrown over it because it confuses the heck out of it and makes it think it's a Classe; visions of grandeur. Poor Amp, never could handle getting toweled.

To be honest, knowing that beyond chance, it's been proven time and again, Golden Ears only work in lighted rooms, depending what the other choices are on the shelf, eight out of ten times, my ego would demand I bring the Classe, CA-5300 home, (I have room for other fancy pants amplifier choices also) just because it's a Classe and for no other reason; sexy product recognition.

(Oh, wow, you have a Classe? I wish I could have a Classe.)

cool.gif

(At 14kHz, for my age, my hearing is normal as I hear differences in the .25 - .5 dB range; nothing to brag about. Not going be picked for SONAR school.)

The point, these Amps are better than the hearing of those who buy these expensive amplifiers. The bottom line, knowing what I know, I still want one.

wink.gif

-
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post #280 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

No, I dont have throw away money, and no i dont need to spend 10k on Amps, but i will if its what it takes to get the max out of those salons2s

You already have the Denon 4311, right?

Here's what you do.

Don't buy any amps.

Run Audyssey. Then turn off all Audyssey, EQ. Bypass all that.

Get a $60 digital SPL meter from Amazon. Manually calibrate the left and right speakers to 80 dB C-weight, slow response, from where you sit.

See how the Salon2 sound to you compared to the dealership.

I'm betting that they will sound just as great.

You can always get a Harman Crown XLS2500 later. The price will still be $550 delivered or even less if on sale. They will sound as great as a $20,000 Krell amp.

Double-blinded study has proven that people could not even tell the difference between a $300 Pioneer RECEIVER and a $10,000 Boulder amp. Believe that before you believe a bunch of hearsay on forums and web.
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post #281 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Ever attend RMAF?

Not yet...but I'd love to go. Since I'm primarily part of the inside sales staff, I don't make it to many shows.

Michael
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post #282 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

You already have the Denon 4311, right?
Here's what you do.
Don't buy any amps.
Run Audyssey. Then turn off all Audyssey, EQ. Bypass all that.
Get a $60 digital SPL meter from Amazon. Manually calibrate the left and right speakers to 80 dB C-weight, slow response, from where you sit.
See how the Salon2 sound to you compared to the dealership.
I'm betting that they will sound just as great.
You can always get a Harman Crown XLS2500 later. The price will still be $550 delivered or even less if on sale. They will sound as great as a $20,000 Krell amp.
Double-blinded study has proven that people could not even tell the difference between a $300 Pioneer RECEIVER and a $10,000 Boulder amp. Believe that before you believe a bunch of hearsay on forums and web.

Why 80 dBs? The proper procedure is to run the noise at 75 dBs but if he runs Audyssey it should do it for him anyways. Also, I have owned Krell too and I agree with you.

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post #283 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 10:14 AM
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Why 80 dBs? The proper procedure is to run the noise at 75 dBs but if he runs Audyssey it should do it for him anyways.

Not proper for me.

and I prefer not using Audyssey at all. I've tried Audyssey several times and did not like it.

Denon are notorious for having low voltage gain. Some people complain of having to crank their volume to 0.0. They get nervous. Mental thing. So increasing the voltage gain will ensure that the volume is never beyond -10.0. biggrin.gif

Do you have a technical explanation why people shouldn't go beyond the Magic 75 carved-in-stone number?
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post #284 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 10:28 AM
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Run Audyssey. Then turn off all Audyssey, EQ. Bypass all that.

Without room measurements this is generally bad advice. That shouldn't be applied without knowing what's going on in that room.
For instance, in smaller rooms speakers will have a ton of bass boom... then again some people prefer that.
The setup guide on AVS should be followed and a of course a newer version of Audyssey used for best results YMMV.
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post #285 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 10:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Do you have a technical explanation why people shouldn't go beyond the Magic 75 carved-in-stone number?

Because it's carved in stone. What are you nuts? Are you trying to cause the whole Space/Time continuum thingy to tear? You might as well be sticking a Black Hole in the middle of things. tongue.gif

Some folks have trouble stepping outside rails of the status quo. It is said, it is so and it's heresy to speak against sonic mantra. Messes with their mental security system as fingers are pointed and claims of heathen hooliganism are raised against the backdrop of torch fed shadows. tongue.gif

There's a little bit of that and then there's the whole THX standard thing the theater business is based on.
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post #286 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Del Cosmos View Post

Without room measurements this is generally bad advice. Which shouldnt be applied unless you know how the speaker is interacting with the room and where the problems lie.
For instance, in smaller rooms speakers will have a ton of bass boom... then again some people prefer that smile.gif
The setup guideon AVS should be followed and a newer version fo Audyssey used for best results.

Sean Olive of Harman did a DBT in which he found that some people preferred NO RC to some of the RC like Audyssey.

Audyssey isn't for everyone. Try it out and compare RC to NO RC. Go with whatever sounds the best.

Telling someone that he should always go with Audyssey is as bad an advice as telling him never to use it. He should try it out and compare for himself.
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post #287 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 10:44 AM
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I'm not saying that anyone should go with Audyssey by default. The person should understand how the speakers interact with the room before making a decision. In my small room - bass EQ is essential because EVERY speaker sounded boomy (which is why I cant run no EQ). Sean Olive's study was in 2008-2009 so it likely featured a low end version of Audyssey and dated technology which offered no bass EQ. There is a huge difference in EQ capabilities between the versions of Audyssey. IE: 2EQ and Audyssy XT32/Pro. There is also different Auyssey EQ's. Older versions rolled off the treble and didnt have a "FLAT" option to bypass this roll off).
Anyway, there are some major differences noted there there that shouldn't be part of general statements.
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post #288 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Not proper for me.
and I prefer not using Audyssey at all. I've tried Audyssey several times and did not like it.
Denon are notorious for having low voltage gain. Some people complain of having to crank their volume to 0.0. They get nervous. Mental thing. So increasing the voltage gain will ensure that the volume is never beyond -10.0. biggrin.gif
Do you have a technical explanation why people shouldn't go beyond the Magic 75 carved-in-stone number?

No reason except that is how most AVR's and processor's do it. It lets you know a set reference or how loud you might be at. It will calculate a reference point for you, like knowing that 0 dBs(if your AVR scales that way) will give you peaks at 105 dBs for your speakers(each) so -10 on the MV would be peaks of 95 dBs. I have not had good results with Audyssey in the past as well but I still EQ manually, especially for 2 channel where one sits in a sweet spot. I would EQ myself at that position in stereo mode to the exact response I prefer. With home theater one has many different seats so it is harder to do manually, this is where the heavy treatments comes in for me. The low voltage thing is only for powering external pro amps with their Denons. I have always said people can do whatever they wish, but giving out detailed advise without ever knowing exactly what is going on with their own setup is tricky because are they listening to one's room, speakers, or whatever and then wonder why it sounds different in their own room. You can take out the guessing. If I invested this much money into something I like(I did) I would make sure it is performing its best(I did). I hate to see people give bad evaluations because of poor setup or something. Even after all that mistakes are always made but at least one can get close enough.

Make no mistake, I also stick with what I like the SOUND of first over what should be correct, but I make sure I know why. I threw in 3 different speakers one time and hated one of them but before I just returned them I did everything I could to make them better. If they still fall short then there is nothing to do but return them. Too many people throw speakers in a spot in their room and say one sounds better than another because each speaker will react differently to the room. I know this happens at GTG's all the time and sometimes there is not enough time but I don't like the matter of fact people get from these. Oh, this speaker was clearly better than that speaker, why? No measurements, no EQ, nothing. How does one know for sure, they don't. Now if one does not care about getting the best from their system then by all means do nothing and just put speakers in a room and say they are the best because you listened to them.

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post #289 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Because it's carved in stone. What are you nuts? Are you trying to cause the whole Space/Time continuum thingy to tear? You might as well be sticking a Black Hole in the middle of things. tongue.gif
Some folks have trouble stepping outside rails of the status quo. It is said, it is so and it's heresy to speak against sonic mantra. Messes with their mental security system as fingers are pointed and claims of heathen hooliganism are raised against the backdrop of torch fed shadows. tongue.gif
There's a little bit of that and then there's the whole THX standard thing the theater business is based on.

I am nuts. eek.gif

Yeah, THX is gold standard. A lot of folks would never dare go beyond the teaching of THX. It's like religion. Its the 11th Commandment. Thou shall not disagree with THX. The gospel according to THX. biggrin.gif
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post #290 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 10:57 AM
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No reason except that is how most AVR's and processor's do it. It lets you know a set reference or how loud you might be at. It will calculate a reference point for you, like knowing that 0 dBs(if your AVR scales that way) will give you peaks at 105 dBs for your speakers(each) so -10 on the MV would be peaks of 95 dBs. I have not had good results with Audyssey in the past as well but I still EQ manually, especially for 2 channel where one sits in a sweet spot. I would EQ myself at that position in stereo mode to the exact response I prefer. With home theater one has many different seats so it is harder to do manually, this is where the heavy treatments comes in for me. The low voltage thing is only for powering external pro amps with their Denons. I have always said people can do whatever they wish, but giving out detailed advise without ever knowing exactly what is going on with their own setup is tricky because are they listening to one's room, speakers, or whatever and then wonder why it sounds different in their own room. You can take out the guessing. If I invested this much money into something I like(I did) I would make sure it is performing its best(I did). I hate to see people give bad evaluations because of poor setup or something. Even after all that mistakes are always made but at least one can get close enough.

Good points.

Every case is different. I've heard guys complain that their speakers and amps just don't sound good after they use Audyssey. They say words like "compressed" sound. "Not dynamic". They complain their amps are underpowered. That they have to crank up the volume too much.

Then I tell them to increase the speaker channel levels on their Denon. All of the sudden, their speakers are now "dynamic" and sound awesome and their amps are now great. Placebo, I know. But try convincing some folks that the Crown amps sound as good as the Krell. Placebo is a lot less expensive than a $10,000 amp. biggrin.gif
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post #291 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 11:02 AM
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User error is typically the case. People often disregard the manual of their receiver, the 100 step Audyssey setup guide on AVS, and generally have no idea what they are doing. The technology has its limits. The Compressed sound is caused by "Dynamic Volume being set to "NIGHT" (which happens automatically after the setup). The user should turn this off (or at least use "LIGHT/DAY). As I mentioned earlier, Audyssey EQ has a treble roll off on the top end which results in "less detail/clarity". In older receivers its the only option. For Music, Audyssey recommends using "Audyssey-FLAT" which doesn't roll off the treble.
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post #292 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Del Cosmos View Post

User error is typically the case. People often disregard the manual of their receiver, the 100 step Audyssey setup guide on AVS, and geneerally have no idea what they are doing. The technology has its limits. The Compressed sound is caused by "Dynamic Volume being set to "NIGHT" (which happens automatically after the setup). The user should turn this off (or atleast use "LIGHT/DAY). As I mentioned earlier, Audyssey EQ has a treble roll off on the top end which results in "less detail/clarity". In older receivers its the only option. For Music, Audyssey recommends using "Audyssey-FLAT" which doesnt roll off the treble.

I know 2 guys who have Audyssey XT32. They both prefer bypassing Audyssey completely. They're not noobs. Experienced audiophiles. No night mode mistakes.

Bottom line, try RC. Compare to NO RC. Use whichever sounds best. Audyssey is not for everyone.
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post #293 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 11:20 AM
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I know 2 guys who have Audyssey XT32. They both prefer bypassing Audyssey completely. They're not noobs. Experienced audiophiles. No night mode mistakes.
.

I know a guy who said Jesus told him which speakers to buy. Irrelevant smile.gif

My original position stands. Users should learn what's going on in the room and not follow blanket statements.
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post #294 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 11:33 AM
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I know a guy who said Jesus told him which speakers to buy. Irrelevant smile.gif
My original position stands. Users should learn what's going on in the room and not follow blanket statements.

So it's wrong to say he should try both Audyssey on and off and go with whichever sounds best?

He should go with whichever sounds the best to him personally, right? Or is that too big of a blanket statement?
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post #295 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 12:17 PM
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Of course smile.gif
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post #296 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I know 2 guys who have Audyssey XT32. They both prefer bypassing Audyssey completely. They're not noobs. Experienced audiophiles. No night mode mistakes.
Bottom line, try RC. Compare to NO RC. Use whichever sounds best. Audyssey is not for everyone.

I agree with you 100%. Not everyone prefers ruler flat and what happens most of the time when EQ is used is that you lose headroom from the amp section which could cause the distortion or compression.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #297 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 01:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I agree with you 100%. Not everyone prefers ruler flat and what happens most of the time when EQ is used is that you lose headroom from the amp section which could cause the distortion or compression.

With the addition of a pair of 12" or 15" subs, main's LPF set to 120Hz, at normal home theater listening volumes (75-85dB), where's all this headroom disappearing to?

confused.gif
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post #298 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

With the addition of a pair of 12" or 15" subs, main's LPF set to 120Hz, at normal home theater listening volumes (75-85dB), where's all this headroom disappearing to?
confused.gif
Good point, Reminding me of :
What Subs to mix with Salon2s ?
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post #299 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 01:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by babak147 View Post

Good point, Reminding me of :
What Subs to mix with Salon2s ?

I'm currently running a pair of 12" Klipsch subs but want a pair that can dig deeper then our current set. The three brands I'm looking at are: Rythmik, Epik and Hsu Research. Each one holds my interest. And also, if a pair of Velodynes were caught playing some Mozart in our lvrm, I'd be inclined to let them stick around.

Subs are a bit more of a generic, commodity speaker and for me, it's a tough call. There's a lot of equally important features in a sub so it's hard to say which one is the best for you. I don't recall you saying; are these speakers predominantly for stereo music or are they predominantly going be used in a home theater system.

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post #300 of 460 Old 08-22-2012, 03:42 PM
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Fan of Rythmik servo controlled subs.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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