Amplifier for Revel Salon2 for 10K or less. - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 09:03 AM
 
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A suggestion, discuss content, not forum members.

I'd love to read "opinions" regarding the Martin Logan sub design, how well a pair of them would or would not integrate into the sonic characteristics of the Salon2 in a large bright room and why.
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post #362 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A suggestion, discuss content, not forum members.
I'd love to read "opinions" regarding the Martin Logan sub design, how well a pair of them would or would not integrate into the sonic characteristics of the Salon2 in a large bright room and why.

We don't know the end game characteristics of the room as of yet. 'Bright' is a subjective term that can not yet be applied.

And correct me if I am mistaken. Did you paint nearly all AVS'ers as not knowing what they think they know?

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #363 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 09:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

We don't know the end game characteristics of the room as of yet. 'Bright' is a subjective term that can not yet be applied.
And correct me if I am mistaken. Did you paint nearly all AVS'ers as not knowing what they think they know?

No I didn't. While maintaining the context of my comment, please reread my comment as I'm not going go backwards. As I posted, discuss content, not forum members.

As to an end game, there is no end game. One can discuss anything to their liking and can assume anything to their convenience. Pick a sub, a room and discuss. In this case, it's a pair of Martin Logan, Reserve, ESL series subs (there are three choices) mentally placed in a large, 3-4k cuft, well appointed, bright room with a pair of Salon2 mains.

If folks don't have personal experience with this combination, it's okay as they're still welcome to participate by adding their cogent thoughts.

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post #364 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 09:34 AM
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Amazing how easily a good string of informative and valuable posts can be derailed...

I own a pair of F113's in my setup and love what they provide, both objectively (measured) and subjectively. I don't hesitate to recommend them if they fit your requirements. Good company and a product that provides incredible performance for it's size

BUT....

If you don't need the form factor or aesthetics of the JL's, as others have suggested, there are other subs out there that offer greater extension, more output (if you can utilize it) which can be had for somewhat less than the F113's when a reasonable discount is factored in. If your subs can't be hidden, I'd suggest placing a cardboard box approximating the sizes of the different subs under consideration in your room to get a good feel for their mass. Seeing the dimensions on paper doesn't always prepare you for how imposing some of the subs are - this will not only help make the decision about what you can live with aesthetically, but will give you a good idea of what the realistic placement options are.

F113's and Danley DTS-10's being discussed in the same thread - the OP is certainly getting a broad spectrum of the potential solutions smile.gif
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post #365 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

No I didn't. While maintaining the context of my comment, please reread my comment as I'm not going go backwards. As I posted, discuss content, not forum members.
As to an end game, there is no end game. One can discuss anything to their liking and can assume anything to their convenience. Pick a sub, a room and discuss. In this case, it's a pair of Martin Logan, Reserve, ESL series subs (there are three choices) placed in a large, appointed, bright room with a pair of Salon2 mains.
If folks don't know, it's okay as they're still welcome to participate by adding their cogent thoughts.

I think making assumptions about the room at this point is presumptuous and a bit arrogant. I agree, if folks don't know, it's okay.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #366 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 09:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I think making assumptions about the room at this point is presumptuous and a bit arrogant. I agree, if folks don't know, it's okay.

Pick a room, any room, it doesn't matter where the room is located. It sure would be nice to discuss "content."
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post #367 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Amazing how easily a good string of informative and valuable posts can be derailed...
I own a pair of F113's in my setup and love what they provide, both objectively (measured) and subjectively. I don't hesitate to recommend them if they fit your requirements. Good company and a product that provides incredible performance for it's size
BUT....
If you don't need the form factor or aesthetics of the JL's, as others have suggested, there are other subs out there that offer greater extension, more output (if you can utilize it) which can be had for somewhat less than the F113's when a reasonable discount is factored in. If your subs can't be hidden, I'd suggest placing a cardboard box approximating the sizes of the different subs under consideration in your room to get a good feel for their mass. Seeing the dimensions on paper doesn't always prepare you for how imposing some of the subs are - this will not only help make the decision about what you can live with aesthetically, but will give you a good idea of what the realistic placement options are.
F113's and Danley DTS-10's being discussed in the same thread - the OP is certainly getting a broad spectrum of the potential solutions smile.gif

Great post! My boxes are 22" x 22" x 22". While I knew about what size they would be, doing a mach up as you suggested would have given me a better idea. The wife and daughter definitely didn't know what they were in for and they think the cabinets I made are way to big... =)

 

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post #368 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 10:00 AM
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BFREE,

The cardboard cut out is a great idea. You can maybe pick up some boxes at Walmart, local grocery store or liquor store.

Make sure you take height into consideration. Many of these subs are 40"+. Also confirm with the vendor you can lay them on thier side (the height becomes width and the width becomes the height) and not affect perfomance.

So how far are you from Phila? Just trying to get a feel for you golf game...

Mike Miles

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post #369 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

BFREE,
The cardboard cut out is a great idea. You can maybe pick up some boxes at Walmart, local grocery store or liquor store.
Make sure you take height into consideration. Many of these subs are 40"+. Also confirm with the vendor you can lay them on thier side (the height becomes width and the width becomes the height) and not affect perfomance.
So how far are you from Phila? Just trying to get a feel for you golf game...

Thanks - I was headed toward an SVS PB-13 until Mrs. Bfreedma saw the mockup. It's a mixed use room and given that the compromise was the F113, everyone lived happily ever after. smile.gif

I really have to thank her, because I never would have been able to fit a second PB-13 in the room, but was able to squeeze in a second F113 tongue.gif

So I suppose that would be one more suggestion - plan for duals, because anyone pursuing serious subs will want them eventually!

Ben

It's exactly 147 yards from the edge of my driveway to the middle of City Line Ave.
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post #370 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 10:30 AM
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WOW City Line Ave., thevhigh rent district! Orvis that Main Line?

Any ways that is still a heavy 9 iron!

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post #371 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

WOW City Line Ave., thevhigh rent district! Orvis that Main Line?
Any ways that is still a heavy 9 iron!

Well, technically I suppose it's the Main Line, but definitely not the high rent district. No polo ponies grazing on my back range, though you might be able to saddle up the woodchuck who tore through my tomatoes last week tongue.gif

I'm glad you only asked how far I hit a 9 iron, not how straight I hit it eek.gif
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post #372 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 10:57 AM
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There is absolutely nothing wrong if the OP buys JL subs. They are great subs.

But I think everyone would agree that in terms of performance, most of these high-end subs from JL, Velodyne, SVS, HSU, Rythmik, JTR, Seaton, Epik, and Funk are just about neck-to-neck.

Let's face it. Most of us will never ever use the maximum bass outputs of our subs. biggrin.gif

So the difference is mainly in the price, warranty, aesthetic, customization, size, weight, and amps. Most offer only powered subs, some offer both powered and non-powered subs.

So for guys like me who don't want to ever buy another powered sub because I like to use my own amps biggrin.gif, I can cross out most companies. Easy decision for me if I were buying a sub today. But if you want a powered sub like most people, the decision is much more difficult because there are a lot of great subs.
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post #373 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 11:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

So for guys like me who don't want to ever buy another powered sub because I like to use my own amps biggrin.gif, I can cross out most companies.

Do tell. Is one better served buying a non-powered or passive sub and adding in their own amplifiers like a Crown or an Emotiva, XPA-2 or even a pair of XPA-1 mono blocks?

What's the benefit over a powered sub besides the obvious convenience of not having to deal with amplifier requirements? By going with a passive sub, can one better choose the mate for one's speaker/room combination?
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post #374 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Do tell. Is one better served buying a non-powered or passive sub and adding in their own amplifiers like a Crown or an Emotiva, XPA-2 or even a pair of XPA-1 mono blocks?
What's the benefit over a powered sub besides the obvious convenience of not having to deal with amplifier requirements? By going with a passive sub, can one better choose the mate for one's speaker/room combination?
There are several advantages. Heat dissipation, not being shaken all the time by the driver, not needing a plug next to the sub, more placement options, if you blow an amp you can replace it with any amp as opposed to the custom one that came with the sub. I'm sure there are other advantages I haven't listed as well.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #375 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 12:00 PM
 
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".....besides the obvious convenience of not having to deal with amplifier requirements?"

rolleyes.gif
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post #376 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

There are several advantages. Heat dissipation, not being shaken all the time by the driver, not needing a plug next to the sub, more placement options, if you blow an amp you can replace it with any amp as opposed to the custom one that came with the sub. I'm sure there are other advantages I haven't listed as well.

Exactly.

Most of us just love amps. Crazy for amps. Wouldn't it be cool if your subs can be powered by your spare McIntosh, Bryston, Mark Levinson or Krell in the closet? biggrin.gif

1. Better heat dissipation
2. Less physical abuse (shaking sub)
3. Easier placement
4. No electrical outlet requirement
5. More amp options
6. Easier, faster amp replacement
7. Lighter weight, portability
8. Less expensive compared to powered version
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post #377 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 12:29 PM
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".....besides the obvious convenience of not having to deal with amplifier requirements?"
rolleyes.gif

The amp is probably the main thing. If your sub amp dies, you'll have to order a new amp and wait a few weeks to use your sub. Spoiled, huh? biggrin.gif
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post #378 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 12:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Exactly.
Most of us just love amps. Crazy for amps. Wouldn't it be cool if your subs can be powered by your spare McIntosh, Bryston, Mark Levinson or Krell in the closet? biggrin.gif
1. Better heat dissipation
2. Less physical abuse (shaking sub)
3. Easier placement
4. No electrical outlet requirement
5. More amp options
6. Easier, faster amp replacement
7. Lighter weight, portability
8. Less expensive compared to powered version

I guess that's the rub. I just don't have the right perspective.

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smile.gif

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post #379 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 12:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The amp is probably the main thing. If your sub amp dies, you'll have to order a new amp and wait a few weeks to use your sub. Spoiled, huh? biggrin.gif

I must be as I've never had an Amp die on me. If all having a passive sub means is the convenience of an outboard Amp, then for musicality and blending with accompanying speaker produced, my opinion, there's no reason to go with an outboard sub Amp as "my opinion," the system is unnecessarily being complicated. That's a personal opinion, not a comment or condemnation on other people's passions.

Taking the subwoofer Amp out of the conversation, are there any comments you can add regarding the benefit/benefits of using a passive sub with a home theater system? Any comments you can add regarding the blending of a pair of Martin Logan Reserve, ESL series subs with the sonic characteristics of a pair of Salon2 speakers?

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post #380 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 12:57 PM
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Using a passive sub means you don't need plugs near where you place the sub so placement options are a lot more flexible and you don't have cords snaking all over the place, just the speaker wire.

Sonically, I wouldn't think there were any advantages.

You can integrate pretty much any sub into a system. Personally I haven't heard anything about ML subs that would make them stand out, especially among the like of HSU, JTR and the like. For 9K Paradigm puts out a beast of a sub that will crack your sheetrock.

http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/subwoofer/signature/signature-series/sub-2

That is if you don't have your sheetrock doubled. My DTS-10 would make my walls flex so much that I had to run around once a month or so and do a bit of Sheetrock repair. It's a small price to pay for bass nirvana.

biggrin.gif

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #381 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I guess that's the rub. I just don't have the right perspective.
wink.gif
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Well, just personal preference. No right or wrong.

The powered Funk is $1100 more expensive than the non-powered Funk 18.0.

X 2 = $2200 more expensive if buying dual subs. biggrin.gif

http://www.funkaudio.ca/18.0.html
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post #382 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 01:06 PM
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My suggestion for subs,
a) that's a pretty big room, and no, anyone who knows anything about subs knows that all subs are most certainly NOT created equal.
b) the 3 areas where subs differ, 1) (objectively) power/SPL capability, 2) low frequency extension, 3) (more subjective) ported vs sealed, oh and for some folks, I suppose form is an important consideration too.

I'd personally look into a pair of Seaton Submersive HP subs. You can easily search this forum/site for sub shootout threads (including threads with measurements) and comparisons to other subs. There aren't many subs that combine the low frequency extension and SPL capability of the SubMs, especially at their pricepoints. The ported JTR Captivators and Cap S (sealed Captivators) are options that are in the same playing field. They're in a different league to subs like the SVS PB series, VTF and Hsu offerings for instance, and that isn't simply a subjective opinion based on feelings or looking at the design of a sub I've never heard from the claims on their website.

The sub shootouts and measurements consistently show that the Submersives have some of the lowest frequency extension available from a non DIY sub. They also produce some of the highest SPLs from a box of similar size AND they're consistently one of the highest rated in sighted AND blind listening tests for both music and HT use (but even more so for music).

As far as powered vs unpowered, unless you really like collecting amps, (and aside from power output, different types of amps matter even less for subs than for speakers), the argument about heat and vibration adversely affecting the reliability of powered subs would only hold merit if there were confirmed issues with powered vs non powered subs. Search the Seaton threads and forums though and you find hardly ANY failure reports for Seaton subs even after years of wall shaking, bass pounding use. The only time I really see folks sending in sub amps to Seaton are when they decide to upgrade from the standard 1000 watt amp to the 2400 watt HP amp. They also have finish options available if that's a consideration.

There ARE other subs available that have similar capabilities in the low frequency extension and SPL categories ( and a VERY few that may even exceed them), but if you search long and hard, you'll realise that not only are these few and far between, aside from DIY solutions, they all cost more, (and sometimes as much as 4x more). The JL Gotham F213 may be one (at $12k ea?), and the Paradigm Sub-2 at $7500ea.


Max
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post #383 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 07:21 PM
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As far as powered vs unpowered... different types of amps matter even less for subs than for speakers...

Exactly. So I don't like being charged for over a grand for the same old amp I already have. Guitar Centers often give $100 coupons. So the Crown XLS 2500 for $450 will do just find. It's 775wpc x 2ch or 2400wpc x 1ch into 4 ohms.

Another example. The JTR Captivator is $2500 + shipping (powered version), but s $1500 + shipping (non-powered).
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post #384 of 460 Old 08-24-2012, 08:16 PM
 
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X 2 = $2200 more expensive if buying dual subs. biggrin.gif

http://www.funkaudio.ca/18.0.html

That is a very convincing detail.

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post #385 of 460 Old 08-25-2012, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Amazing how easily a good string of informative and valuable posts can be derailed...

I own a pair of F113's in my setup and love what they provide, both objectively (measured) and subjectively. I don't hesitate to recommend them if they fit your requirements. Good company and a product that provides incredible performance for it's size

BUT....

If you don't need the form factor or aesthetics of the JL's, as others have suggested, there are other subs out there that offer greater extension, more output (if you can utilize it) which can be had for somewhat less than the F113's when a reasonable discount is factored in. If your subs can't be hidden, I'd suggest placing a cardboard box approximating the sizes of the different subs under consideration in your room to get a good feel for their mass. Seeing the dimensions on paper doesn't always prepare you for how imposing some of the subs are - this will not only help make the decision about what you can live with aesthetically, but will give you a good idea of what the realistic placement options are.

F113's and Danley DTS-10's being discussed in the same thread - the OP is certainly getting a broad spectrum of the potential solutions smile.gif

having heard/felt the setup in question on more than one occasion, i can confirm that it does not suck... smile.gif i am a huge fan of the jl subs, nothing else provides what they do in a similar form factor... they do incredible things with a small box... if someone replaced my subm's (well, i'm down to 1 right now) with f113's, i would not cry and stamp my feet... smile.gif if i needed "small, sexy and powerful", the answer would definitely be the jl... it's a rather unique product...

the size factor here is a real good point... the submersive isn't "giant" but it makes the the jl look positively tiny... the suggestion of constructing cardboard mockups is a good one... while many of us are "used to" seeing a big black box or two (or in some cases, more) in our rooms, they might be a bit of a shock to someone's system if they've never owned "form factor be damned" big boy subs... wink.gif

good thing for the op is that he's got a lotta space, and any "big uglies" should be eaten up by it, and not as visibly noticeable... smile.gif

several good options for the op have been presented (and the diy boys haven't even stuck their head in yet... tongue.gif )... once he gets his baseline knowledge, he should be able to focus in on a few and get some more specific comparative responses...
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WOW City Line Ave., thevhigh rent district! Orvis that Main Line?

Any ways that is still a heavy 9 iron!

i bet i could easily skull a 9 iron from bfreedma's front yard hard enough to get it to philly... redface.giftongue.gif especially if i got it going down city line really good... biggrin.gif


oh, and one note on "shaking the amp" in a powered sub conversation... the subm is inert... as in, "does not vibrate even when moving everything else in the house"...

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post #386 of 460 Old 08-25-2012, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Another example. The JTR Captivator is $2500 + shipping (powered version), but s $1500 + shipping (non-powered).

To be fair though, the cost of the powered version is well justified as I believe the Caps utilize a made-in-America SpeakerPower amp with integrated DSP that costs around $1,000 on it's own.
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post #387 of 460 Old 08-28-2012, 10:09 AM
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It's been proven, over and over and over again, when a double blind test procedure is used, the individual being tested, cannot accurately choose beyond that of random chance.

This may be an old post, but what studies are you referring to? Dr. Floyd Toole covers much about the correlation between speakers and measurements and amplifiers sure do measure differently. I'll also tell you that from personal experience that some amplifiers sound more strained than others are similar volume. So, I can't correlate this out of personal experience but would certainly like to look at some studies and what the conclusions are since I'm very much into analysis of the statistical correlation.

Thanks,
Theo

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post #388 of 460 Old 08-28-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

amplifiers sure do measure differently.

Two 300wpc amps measuring differently?

Practically even every AVR has a FR of 20-20kHz +/- 0.1dB, SNR of -100dB or better, crosstalk of -80dB or better, and THD of 0.1% or better.
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post #389 of 460 Old 08-28-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

This may be an old post, but what studies are you referring to? Dr. Floyd Toole covers much about the correlation between speakers and measurements and amplifiers sure do measure differently. I'll also tell you that from personal experience that some amplifiers sound more strained than others are similar volume. So, I can't correlate this out of personal experience but would certainly like to look at some studies and what the conclusions are since I'm very much into analysis of the statistical correlation.
Thanks,
Theo
If they are lying about the specs like many manufacturers do, then yes, one will sound strained while the other will produce the rated power effortlessly. But if they measure the same, they will sound the same.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #390 of 460 Old 08-28-2012, 01:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thxtheater View Post

This may be an old post, but what studies are you referring to? Dr. Floyd Toole covers much about the correlation between speakers and measurements and amplifiers sure do measure differently. I'll also tell you that from personal experience that some amplifiers sound more strained than others are similar volume. So, I can't correlate this out of personal experience but would certainly like to look at some studies and what the conclusions are since I'm very much into analysis of the statistical correlation.
Thanks,
Theo

The DBT tests that I've read the results of were results from years, ago. I read several to many separate tests and not one time, when Amps were match for SPL output, did Golden Ears pick better than statistical chance, the more expensive Amplifier. Since that time, I've read one recent test but could not link you to the tests for your perusal. Not a clue how to tie you and them together.

I've read of similar tests being done with wine and "Two Buck Chuck."

http://blog.winemag.com/editors/2007/07/10/blind-tasting-two-buck-chuck/

Note how the excuses came at the end of the article? Must have been wine cretins from the central coast.

The point, everybody's an expert, until the curtain comes down.

tongue.gif

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