cross over freq with sat/sub - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Big issue here. I looked but did not see any posts, sorry if it's a repeat question. I have 4 Polk rt-35's with a Polk psw 450. The 35's are 50-23 hrtz, and the sub is 25-160.
Using the lfe line out from an older Integra.
The question is where should the crossover in my Oppo 93 be? 80? or higher?
I assume the freq control on the sub is not used with my setup. (not using speaker level ports). So, what's the correct setting? I say 80.
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post #2 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 01:45 PM
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It is kind of silly to have front speakers that are capable of producing some good bass, and then waste that capability by using the subwoofer excessively.

My experience would lead me to set up the front speakers to operate full-range, with no limiting of their output, and set the subwoofer's high-frequency limit filter to somewhere between 50 and 70 Hz.

I would not use the OPPO to set any frequency ranges or limits.

Experiment and see what sounds best, using a music clip or CD with good plucked string bass in the lower range, or other 40-80 Hz tracks.

Only careful listening is going to tell you what works the best, but try to get as much as you can out of your front speakers.
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post #3 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 01:45 PM
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If you're using the player's analog outputs, setting the player's crossover to 80 Hz should be OK, but some people have found that a higher setting sounds better. A manufacturer's anechoic measurements aren't the same as what is heard in a room. You'll have to try different values and listen carefully.

The subwoofer's Low Pass Filter should be set to 120Hz. The Low Frequency Effects channel is allowed to contain audio up to that frequency. The subwoofer will be receiving audio from the LFE (.1) channel in addition to the low frequencies from all of the other speaker channels.

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post #4 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 01:55 PM
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There is some good discussion on that in the Frequency Response thread.
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post #5 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for quick replys. A little tweaking here and there.
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post #6 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

It is kind of silly to have front speakers that are capable of producing some good bass, and then waste that capability by using the subwoofer excessively.
My experience would lead me to set up the front speakers to operate full-range, with no limiting of their output, and set the subwoofer's high-frequency limit filter to somewhere between 50 and 70 Hz.
I would not use the OPPO to set any frequency ranges or limits.
Experiment and see what sounds best, using a music clip or CD with good plucked string bass in the lower range, or other 40-80 Hz tracks.
Only careful listening is going to tell you what works the best, but try to get as much as you can out of your front speakers.

A 6 1/2" midrange is not physically capable of producing good bass at reasonable listening levels for acoustic music (like jazz) to say nothing of home theater. I'd try a 120Hz cross-over, especially with a ported speaker which unloads below its port tune and produces excessive distortion.

Output at the maximum linear excursion into full space for various representative drivers at 3 feet is as follows at 120, 80, 40, and 20Hz. Many drivers have less excursion and lower output. Subtract 3-5dB for living room dimensions and more for a larger space for the SPL at your listening position

Size Driver Sd (cm^2) x xmax (mm) 120Hz 80Hz 40Hz 20Hz
4 1/2" Seas W12CY001 50 x 3 89dB 82dB 70dB 58dB
5 1/4" Peerless 830873 88 x 3.5 95dB 88dB 76dB 64dB
6 1/4" Seas L16RN-SL 104 x 6 101dB 94dB 82dB 70dB
7" Seas W18EX001 126 x 5 102dB 95dB 83dB 71dB
8.5" Seas W22EX001 220 x 5 106dB 99dB 87dB 75dB
10" Peerless 830452 352 x 12.5 118dB 111dB 99dB 87dB

Good jazz recordings at 85dBC SPL average can have 107dB peaks at the speaker. Reference level home theater can get you to 110dB.
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post #7 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

It is kind of silly to have front speakers that are capable of producing some good bass, and then waste that capability by using the subwoofer excessively.
It would be far sillier to buy a subwoofer and then not send it all the bass. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

My experience would lead me to set up the front speakers to operate full-range, with no limiting of their output, and set the subwoofer's high-frequency limit filter to somewhere between 50 and 70 Hz.
I would not use the OPPO to set any frequency ranges or limits.
Experiment and see what sounds best, using a music clip or CD with good plucked string bass in the lower range, or other 40-80 Hz tracks.
Only careful listening is going to tell you what works the best, but try to get as much as you can out of your front speakers.
It would be sillier still to send bass frequencies to speakers that can't output them. Here is a picture of the OP's speakers:



Do you see the little hole just below the mid/woofer? That is the port, and that is were the lowest notes this speaker is capable of reproducing come out. That port is tuned to about 52 - 53 Hz, (the speaker is spec'd with a -3 dB point of 50 Hz, so port tune is just above that point.) How loud do you think that tiny port can reproduce 50 Hz before it's starts chuffing away, making all kinds of bad noises? The answer is: not loud enough to be useful. It would be far smarter to use the Bass Management in the receiver to set a higher crossover, well above the port tune.


quad4.0, you didn't tell us what "older Integra" you have. Before we can suggest a crossover, we need to know what crossover choices are available.

Also, if you are using a digital connection between your Oppo and your Integra, (Optical, coaxial or HDMI), you won't be using the crossover in the Oppo. That only comes into play when you use the analog outputs of the Oppo into the analog multi-channel inputs on the receiver.

What method are you using to calibrate the system?

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #8 of 13 Old 08-29-2012, 05:54 PM
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How about the Steinway Lyngdorf system reviewed in the latest Sound & Vision that's crossed over at 300hz? Never heard of such a thing especially when using eight 12" subs. confused.gif
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post #9 of 13 Old 12-09-2012, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

It would be far sillier to buy a subwoofer and then not send it all the bass. rolleyes.gif
It would be sillier still to send bass frequencies to speakers that can't output them. Here is a picture of the OP's speakers:

Do you see the little hole just below the mid/woofer? That is the port, and that is were the lowest notes this speaker is capable of reproducing come out. That port is tuned to about 52 - 53 Hz, (the speaker is spec'd with a -3 dB point of 50 Hz, so port tune is just above that point.) How loud do you think that tiny port can reproduce 50 Hz before it's starts chuffing away, making all kinds of bad noises? The answer is: not loud enough to be useful. It would be far smarter to use the Bass Management in the receiver to set a higher crossover, well above the port tune.
quad4.0, you didn't tell us what "older Integra" you have. Before we can suggest a crossover, we need to know what crossover choices are available.
Also, if you are using a digital connection between your Oppo and your Integra, (Optical, coaxial or HDMI), you won't be using the crossover in the Oppo. That only comes into play when you use the analog outputs of the Oppo into the analog multi-channel inputs on the receiver.
What method are you using to calibrate the system?
Craig

My Integra is the DTR-7. 103 x 5.@8ohms. I have 4 rt-35's cs 350 and the psw 450 all polks. Oppo 93 with ne mod. and a stereo EQ.
The 35's have the power port in back,a tuned port with a funnel shape cone in it, that is part on a wall hanger also. They carry nice bass, but not near what the sub can. I use analog (of course) with my Oppo, and have it set at 90 for crossover. Lots of dvd audio.sacd/bd music and movies. Into lossless music, multi channel
as far as calibration I am a novice on this issue. I understand a spl meter is called for next
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post #10 of 13 Old 12-10-2012, 04:38 AM
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^^^

personally, i'd lose the analog connections, hook up by hdmi, and use the bass management in your receiver (and whatever room correction is available)...

and i would cross those speakers at a minimum of 80hz, likely higher... it makes no sense to try to push them to their (theoretical) f3 point...

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post #11 of 13 Old 12-10-2012, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
personally, i'd lose the analog connections, hook up by hdmi, and use the bass management in your receiver (and whatever room correction is available)...
and i would croYouss those speakers at a minimum of 80hz, likely higher... it makes no sense to try to push them to their (theoretical) f3 point...[/quote

You evidently did not read all of my post. My AVR is 12 yrs old, and has only s video, and 5.1 analog multi-channel input. It is rated for 96/24 playback, and has burr brown dac, and is wrat. Plus, I said I just put in the (Oppo 93) nuforce ne mod that affects ONLY the analog section. The mod brings it up to the same output as HDMI. HDMI audio gets interference from the video section anyway. With this method I am able to get true high resolution w/o having to buy a new AVR.
I will tell you this, it sounds dam good! Especially after the mod was put in.
At the advice of a pro, I put my crossover at 90 in my Oppo. IT seems to do just fine. Very clean, present bass lines. You can hear every note clearly.
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post #12 of 13 Old 12-10-2012, 10:31 AM
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^^^

sorry, i misread your model number... so shoot me...

you have incorrect assumptions about hdmi... wildly incorrect...

wanna improve your sound quality? learn to understand that the only things that really "matter" are the speakers and how they interfsce with the room...

i would wager a significant amount that were you to actually measure, you'd find that your modal area is a complete mess... take a guess why i'd wager that amount...

an inexpensive avr with good room correction would be a revelation to you...

your money... not mine... do what you like...

- chris

 

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post #13 of 13 Old 12-10-2012, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
sorry, i misread your model number... so shoot me...
you have incorrect assumptions about hdmi... wildly incorrect...
wanna improve your sound quality? learn to understand that the only things that really "matter" are the speakers and how they interfsce with the room...
i would wager a significant amount that were you to actually measure, you'd find that your modal area is a complete mess... take a guess why i'd wager that amount...
an inexpensive avr with good room correction would be a revelation to you...
your money... not mine... do what you like...

No big deal, The information regarding the HDMI and audio came directly from Jason @ Nuforce. I'm of the opinon that if it works, why fix it? I shelled out big money in 2000 for that avr. It was and still is a battleship. If I wanted cheaper, I see it all over the net. . I love my 105 watts, and to replace it with an equal today would be app. the same money. Although I lack "room correction" I have added a very nice EQ, room treatments, (acoustic panels) that have removed all the echo's and reflection.
I did it the "old" way. Although being a novice, I still have acheived a great deal with improving the sound. IF I was ever to go new, it would be an equal to what I now use. I can't go back after getting ahead. makes no sense. Besides room corection is for those who cannot figure out how to set up using math and a measure tape.
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