B&W 802D and amp requirments - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

There is only one receiver that will give decent sound quality to those speakers IMO, and that is the Cambridge Audio 551R. All of the Yamadensohaonk receivers suck when it comes to sound quality.
Absolute nonsense. Nobody has ever been able to tell the difference in double blind testing.

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Old 09-02-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Absolute nonsense. Nobody has ever been able to tell the difference in double blind testing.

Exactly. People couldn't tell the difference between a $300 Pioneer AVR and the Boulder $10,000 monoblocks.

I don't mind if anyone prefers a certain brand. That's cool. But when they state their pure personal preferences as a matter of fact without any proofs, it's just wrong. This guy has repeatedly stated his preferences as facts. It's ridiculous. Absolute nonsense. But he keeps on doing it on every thread he posts. eek.gif
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpox View Post

Now that we are done with brand bashing, lets get back to me.
Tried to get info from Onkyo on my 7.1 receiver and all I got was a guy reading the same manual as I have. From the manual "biamping improves the treble and bass", which tells me nothing. So here is MY UNDERSTANDING of my original question "How do I power B&W 802Dd2?"
BIAMPING the front and rear surround amps provides me with 140 watts to the mid/high
and 140 to the woofer. My total output will be less than 280 watts depending on how much the woofers draw from a particular musical passage. My sub will basically turn it into a tri amped system. Do the amps have to be identcle, i.e. can the mid/high get less power than the source intended?
BRIDGING gets me 280 watts. Although the hookup confuses me. + from the rear surround amp to the - terminal and the + from the front amp to the + terminal. How does the the flow work? or is it an AC thing? Is it like a styrofoam cup that keeps cold things cold and hot things hot (how do it know?}. Am I really getting a 280 watt equivalent amp?
A SEPERATE AMP such as a emotiva xpa2 $800 goes to my preouts, bypassing both the rear surround and front amps and provides 300 watts. or emotiva monoblocks for $2000 getting me 500 watts or an xpr5 $2000 that gets me 400 watts to 5 channels. I am sure the big names such as mcintosh krell classe stc are a better choice, but are they sigificantly better for 5 to 10 times the cost? Although other than forum posters (who may work for emotiva), I have only seen one emotiva review and that was from a questionable source (audioholics).
Here is how I see audio equipment:
$500 to get 80% of the benefi
$1000 to get 90%
$5000 to get 95%
$10000 to get 98%
$20000 to get 99%
$100000 to get 99.5%
It just depends on where on the curve you want to be. The trick is how you balance the spending between amps, speakers, etc.
Please comment/correct me if I am wrong on any of my thoughts.

more like

$500 to get 97% of the benefit (pretty good quality components)
$1000 to get 98% (really good quality components)
$5000 to get 99% (highest quality components)
$10000 to get 100% (using the absolute highest quality components)
$20000 to get 100% (all your paying for is looks, brand name, warranty, customer service)
$100000 to get 100% (all your paying for is looks, brand name, warranty, customer service)
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Exactly. People couldn't tell the difference between a $300 Pioneer AVR and the Boulder $10,000 monoblocks.
I don't mind if anyone prefers a certain brand. That's cool. But when they state their pure personal preferences as a matter of fact without any proofs, it's just wrong. This guy has repeatedly stated his preferences as facts. It's ridiculous. Absolute nonsense. But he keeps on doing it on every thread he posts. eek.gif

Exactly. But no matter how many times you disprove his made up facts he just doesn't get it or doesn't care. He has zero respect for any other peoples remarks or comments, has no respect for other peoples recommendations if its not what he believes in. Ever since he quoted my post as "those are garbage" when I recommended to an OP to look into Aperion, Arx, Ascend, Energy and Emotiva for speakers, he just continues on with his copy paste remarks and discards all others opinions as absurd, ridiculous, or stupid. Theres one post of his that he labeled all Anthem receivers as "overpriced Junk" just cause it has room correction software included which he despises and thinks that with it being included it makes any thing pure junk.
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Old 09-02-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpox View Post

Now that we are done with brand bashing, lets get back to me.
Tried to get info from Onkyo on my 7.1 receiver and all I got was a guy reading the same manual as I have. From the manual "biamping improves the treble and bass", which tells me nothing. So here is MY UNDERSTANDING of my original question "How do I power B&W 802Dd2?"
BIAMPING the front and rear surround amps provides me with 140 watts to the mid/high
and 140 to the woofer. My total output will be less than 280 watts depending on how much the woofers draw from a particular musical passage. My sub will basically turn it into a tri amped system. Do the amps have to be identcle, i.e. can the mid/high get less power than the source intended?...

In your OP you said you liked how your Onkyo sounded with the 804s so you should stick with the brand.

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=PA-MC5500&class=Amplifier&p=i (4 ohm rated)
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=PR-SC5508&class=Preamplifier&p=i

Sony DA5700ES
PSB Image T5, PSB Image B5, PSB Image B4, PSB Image C4
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Old 09-02-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpox View Post

Now that we are done with brand bashing, lets get back to me.
Tried to get info from Onkyo on my 7.1 receiver and all I got was a guy reading the same manual as I have. From the manual "biamping improves the treble and bass", which tells me nothing. So here is MY UNDERSTANDING of my original question "How do I power B&W 802Dd2?"
BIAMPING the front and rear surround amps provides me with 140 watts to the mid/high
and 140 to the woofer. My total output will be less than 280 watts depending on how much the woofers draw from a particular musical passage. My sub will basically turn it into a tri amped system. Do the amps have to be identical, i.e. can the mid/high get less power than the source intended?
BRIDGING gets me 280 watts. Although the hookup confuses me. + from the rear surround amp to the - terminal and the + from the front amp to the + terminal. How does the the flow work? or is it an AC thing? Is it like a styrofoam cup that keeps cold things cold and hot things hot (how do it know?}. Am I really getting a 280 watt equivalent amp?
a)No because of the power supply
b)No I'm pretty sure but lets think about this (other need to help me with this part, but I think this is another reason why passive bi-amping doesn't help)
Let's think about just the tweeter section. Pretend that 140watts is an all channel driven spec (not sure if that was confirmed, usually 5-7 channel amps can't do that and the specs are 2 channel driven specs, but lets for the sake of this though process say it is really 140watts all channels driven). Now you take off the connector between your two binding posts so you are just hooking into the tweeter section. You are passing in an already amplified full range signal into the high pass passive crossover/filter. Lots of that power had been used to amplify the portion of the signal that get filtered out. Now these numbers are way made up but pretend half of the signal was for the tweeter, you lost half of the amplified signal and low end requires more power than high end, lets say double... your 140 watts (if it was really that to begin with) just became something like 50 watts. now if it was 50 to begin with...now we are talk 15-20. Where did that extra power go (I'm really asking cuz I dont know). I do know the amplifier amplified the whole signal, and the crossover network chopped the low end off. Same deal with the other binding posts for the low end and it's low pass filters.
Smart People. Am I totally of here with point b?1

Passive Bi-Amping doesn't help or get you more power...there's a good article on benefits of active bi-amping, but that's not what you have been suggesting. Crossover happens before amplification. Speakers in this situation do not have built in crossovers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpox View Post

A SEPERATE AMP such as a emotiva xpa2 $800 goes to my preouts, bypassing both the rear surround and front amps and provides 300 watts. or emotiva monoblocks for $2000 getting me 500 watts or an xpr5 $2000 that gets me 400 watts to 5 channels. I am sure the big names such as mcintosh krell classe stc are a better choice, but are they sigificantly better for 5 to 10 times the cost?
I know it really seems like they should, but they don't sound ANY better. Search ABX tests. Nobody has ever been able to distinguish between amp's which are operating within their limits, in blind ABX tests beyond statistical chance. But man those mcintosh are sexy, sturdy, and last. If I was rich...I'd still buy the Emotiva.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpox View Post

Although other than forum posters (who may work for emotiva), I have only seen one emotiva review and that was from a questionable source (audioholics).
Here is how I see audio equipment:
$500 to get 80% of the benefi
$1000 to get 90%
$5000 to get 95%
$10000 to get 98%
$20000 to get 99%
$100000 to get 99.5%
It just depends on where on the curve you want to be. The trick is how you balance the spending between amps, speakers, etc.
Please comment/correct me if I am wrong on any of my thoughts.

I do not work for Emotiva nor am I affiliated with them in any way other than being a customer. I am a software engineer in an unrelated field, audio enthusiast, and I like good quality high value products. I would not buy their other products at this time and do not own any other emotiva products. They've had massive problems with their processors, can't meet projeced release dates, and they are buggy. I think their sub is fine for that price, but I would go other directions. Their amps are good quality, good value, and meet their specs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpox View Post

"How do I power B&W 802Dd2?"

You need to do the math based on the speakers sensitivity rating, seating distance, desired SPL (considering peaks too), and desired headroom. Will someone good at that run through it for OP?



So why do I have an EMO amp if I believe/know/will wager money on that all solid state amps of reasonable quality sound the same? Will first I had to prove that to myself. At regular listening levels there is no sound quality improvements. The difference for me kicked in about -5 from reference and on up. The sound remaind clean so my 5channel marantz AVR was distorting at those levels. There was a noticeable improvement there. It's the difference between high volume that doesn't sound "loud" versus LOUD that is painful. At high volumes my system still sounds clean.
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Old 09-02-2012, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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cross over before biamping is one of my questions to Onkyo. Don''t know if the receiver does this when you set it to biamp.

Anyone have any knowledge with bridging the rear ss and front amps in a 7.1 receiver?
The manual says it gets me 280 watts.

"You need to do the math based on the speakers sensitivity rating (90 db), seating distance (15 feet), desired SPL (considering peaks too), and desired headroom. Will someone good at that run through it for OP? " EXACTLY what I need. The B&W 802D is rated for 50 to 500W into 8 ohms and has a sensitivity of 90 dB. I know 500W is enough and 40W isn't. I have got 140W and with bridging maybe 280W. Sould my target amp be 500W even if I will never drive them past 100W?
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Old 09-02-2012, 07:14 PM
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There is the thing about passive bi-amping. the gain is very limited at best. I have tried it but not even sure if i heard a difference.

Also 140 amp X 2 in a passive bi-amp configuration does not equal to having 280 watts. Why because each signal is fullrange so each amp channel is wasting energy amplify signals that will get discarded by the crossover anyways. There is some grain from the passive bi-amp but this is only marginally better than bi-wiring--the reason being that there will be some feedback (back EMF) from the drivers and bi-wring and bi-amp will filter that from reaching the other drivers. Again the whole thing is very subtle and not even sure if you can hear the difference. I know I tried it with my Arcam AVR300 a few years ago and with my Marantz SR8002 and couldn't tell a difference with my B&W N804 speakers.

I am not sure any receiver does this, but in the future, if a receiver incorporated a digital crossover before the amps and calculates the crossover frequencies using something like Anthem ARC then I think it would be effective active bi-amping. Unfortunately Anthem MRX receivers don't bi-amp the fronts with the 6+7 channels (i had the Anthem MRX700) so this is all in theory.

If you are looking to save money, the Emotiva amps look like good deals as does the wyred for sounds but I have never personally heard either. Having just bought the 802D2, I am also in the process of auditioning many amps and the cheapest good sounding amps I have been able to audition is the Parasound Halo A21 at about 2k. I am not planning to use any receiver as I don't care about HT performance and have recently downsized to stereo only. I must get an separate amp as my pre-amp doesn't have any amplification.

I will probably get a Mcintosh MC302 or MC452 (if i can hear a difference). The new Mcintosh amps are finally 'fast' so I want to give them a try. One thing to factor in when looking at some expensive hifi gear is that certain brands like b&w, krell, mcintosh etc. hold value remarkably well. I am not sure how much 2k of emotiva amps will be worth in 5 or 10 years if you do decide to upgrade, but a mcintosh amp will be worth probably close to 80% of what you play for it in 5 years and probably in 10 years as well (since they will keep increasing prices). I generally stick to well known brands due to the 'risk free' nature of trying it and reselling and not taking a bath smile.gif
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:24 PM
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I asked a regular poster who understands the nuts, bolts, and academic aspects better than I why people do not apply active crossovers to passive speakers (ones with internal passive crossover networks). He said
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

This would result in a filter (active filter) on top of a filter (passive crossover network), changing the frequency and phase response of your speaker in an unforeseeable (and therefore undesirable) way. Not recommended, unless you know what you're doing.

I figured it was a no no because if it worked well we'd read all about it here. I translate what Markus said to "That would be a bad idea".
To active crossover you need to rip the crossover guts out of the speaker.

EDIT: Please just buy a bigger amp and don't do that to my dream speakers
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:14 AM
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Linn and Naim makes it easy (although expensive) to active amp their speakers.

I have a pair of Linn Majik Isobark where the bass drivers are aktiv i.e. i use a separate stereo amp with crossover cards for the bass and another stereo amp to passively drive the rest of the drivers (mid/tweeter/super tweeter).
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhter View Post

I will probably get a Mcintosh MC302 or MC452 (if i can hear a difference). The new Mcintosh amps are finally 'fast' so I want to give them a try. One thing to factor in when looking at some expensive hifi gear is that certain brands like b&w, krell, mcintosh etc. hold value remarkably well. I am not sure how much 2k of emotiva amps will be worth in 5 or 10 years if you do decide to upgrade, but a mcintosh amp will be worth probably close to 80% of what you play for it in 5 years and probably in 10 years as well (since they will keep increasing prices). I generally stick to well known brands due to the 'risk free' nature of trying it and reselling and not taking a bath smile.gif

IF a $7500 amp only loses 20% that is a $1500 loss. A $2000 Emotiva would have to lose 75% to lose $1500.

If the Emotiva performance was acceptable the $5500 difference could be put to better use.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:07 AM
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I'll screw this up, but maybe if I do so badly enough other people will jump in and do it right...

90dB spl (2.83V, 1m) which at 8 ohms means it takes 1 watt to produce 90db's at 1 meter. You have a minimum impedance of 3.5 ohms though, it isn't flat over the frequency spectrum, this is another reason why you need a solid amp that can handle tough loads. The good news for me though is I have no idea how to account for this during these calculations, but FYI it does impact this stuff.
**"Every doubling of this distance results in a 6 decibel drop in the speaker output" [source: Schneider]
If you said how far back you sit I missed it.
90db@1m, 84db@2m, 78db@4m Although u are likely between 2 and 4...I'll go with the 4m
For movie reference level your speaker channels need to support peaks of 105dB (if your AVR volume is generally negative db values and is louder as they increase, then reference is 0), your subs need to support 115db peaks. This is loud, and fun, especially if your sub can keep up too.
**The log scale kinda screws us here. U have to double power to get a 3db sound increase. A 3db sound increase is considered the threshold in human hearing where we can identify that it is louder AKA it is just noticeable.
105-78 = 27 db (you need to increase power enough to gain an additional 27 db SPL)
27 / 3 = 9 (you have to double power 9 times to get reference)
2^9 = 512 (you need 512 watts for reference @ 4m not considering room gain)

If you want to be able to put that nob on +3 and still have clean sound OR you want 3db of head room, you need 1024 watts
If you want to be able to put that nob on +3 and still have clean sound AND you want 3db of head room, you need 2048 watts
**This is if you were in an anechoic chamber, you will get some room gain; that will help you out a bit.

Big rooms are expensive to do well for home theater... You can see why many preach that sensitive speakers are the way to go for HT...

EDIT: I should have said the logarithmic nature of sound kinda screws us here.

What did I do wrong folks?
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:16 AM
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Wait I screwed that up...fixing numbers now. Give me a second before you all tear it up

EDIT: OK I fixed the subtraction error, now you all can tell me what's wrong
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:51 PM
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I've said this before, but I'll mention again. Andrew Robinson owns 800D2 and pairs them with a Crown XLS 2000 amp.

Double-blinded studies have proven that statistically people cannot tell the difference among amps once the amps were level-matched and with identical setups.

So it would be okay to use Emotiva, Crown, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, and a lot of high quality amps out there.

The more expensive brands like Anthem, Arcam, Parasound, ATI, Outlaw, Lexicon, McIntosh, Bryston, are, of course, all great if you have the budget. If you have the money, get them.

There is more to it than just sound quality. Owning a Bryston or Arcam or Anthem or Lexicon, etc, may or may not give you significant improvement. But they may give you a big smiley grin on your face like this. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:17 AM
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Not recommending you do or do not go this way, but look at the power to price ratio you can get in the pro audio world.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1427623/cerwin-vega-cv-5000-pro-audio-amp-for-680-at-guitarcenter-com-using-15-off-couponcode-lday15

I suppose this is more for subs.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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anyone familiar with elegantaudiovisual.com?

They qouted me 20% discount on B&W 802dd2. Also 20 to 25% of high end amps such as krell, brysrom cary ati, etc. It costs $300 to join their club. Apparently that is how they can discount high end audio
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpox View Post

anyone familiar with elegantaudiovisual.com?
They qouted me 20% discount on B&W 802dd2. Also 20 to 25% of high end amps such as krell, brysrom cary ati, etc. It costs $300 to join their club. Apparently that is how they can discount high end audio

http://www.avsforum.com/t/599904/elegant-audio-video-online-store

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1346195945&read&3&zzlShoff
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpox View Post

anyone familiar with elegantaudiovisual.com?
They qouted me 20% discount on B&W 802dd2. Also 20 to 25% of high end amps such as krell, brysrom cary ati, etc. It costs $300 to join their club. Apparently that is how they can discount high end audio

Yes. I've bought things from them. I would buy from them again in the future. No worries from my point of view.

I was able to get my dealer to give me 20% off. But some dealers are not willing. So if they are not willing, I don't have any problem at all buying from Elegant Audio Video.

$12,000 delivered for brand new 802D2 is as good as it gets.

You could buy demo or used for less, but not brand new for less.

Anyway, you can use your credit card for your own protection if it gives you peace of mind.
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