**The Official Chane M&C 'Arx' owner's thread (A1, A1b, A2, A2b, A3, A5, etc.)** - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 694 Old 03-24-2013, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lozoyad View Post




BTJ,

I've enclosed a shot of my listening room. It is roughly 16x17 and is upstairs, to the right is the HSU sub. The ARX A1B's are about 2 ft from the back wall. Addtionally my music reference material is as follows, all references and baselines are done using these CD sources:

1) Biber - Unam Ceylum
2) Jean Luc Ponty - No Absolute Time
3) Jean Luc Ponty - Tchokola
4) Janis Ian - Breaking Silence
5) Bozzio, Levis, Stevens - Black Light Syndrome
6) Jon Anderson - Survival and other Stories (track #3)
7) Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms
8) The Absolute Sound - Hearts of Space
9) Tabula Rasa - Bella Fleck, Bhatt, Chen

All speakers are sent thru my list above. If they do not pass the mustard then I begin to question what may be going on. For example I almost settled on the Ascend Sierra-1, wonderful build, 3D imaging and soundstage. However, to my ears they sounded a bit too forward. These were the baseline non-NrT speakers. The designer and I went back and forth..he couldn't believe I thought they were too bright. IMO (getting on soapbox), there seems to be a trend in speaker design to cater to a certain style of listening these days, relying too heavily on pure analytical measurements. Having said that, I do not get that impression from Jon Lane - he believes in neutrality, he believes in what his ears tell him. The ARX A1B's deliver that in spades.

Ok, so there you have it. Again, simply switching back to the PSB B6's makes a difference in soundstage delivery, the B6's open up. To be honest I prefer the linear (no prominent peaks and valleys) neutral sound of the ARX A1b...but I also love the soundstage of the B6's.


Thanks for getting back so quickly. smile.gif

That's actually a REALLY good listening test list. I'm impressed. Some really great songs on there. The only one I think would add a lot for little cost is the FLAC recording of Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man from HD Tracks dot com. It's stunning as well.

I don't see the side walls being an issue, but I typically will toe-in the Arx cabinets more. One thing I did experience very early-on while developing the A5's, was that the TV screen has an effect on the imaging and soundstaging to a much higher degree than I expected.

Let me snap a a few pics of my listening area to illustrate what I am about to say......

I found that the TV (I have a 55" Vizio LED backlit) would create a "hole" in the sonic image when it was too far away from the wall AND too close to the front baffles of the A5s. So, I moved the TV back about 6 inches and moved the A5's front baffles about 28.5" from the rear wall (they were about 20" away when I started noticing this) on the leading outside edge of the cabinet. After doing this, I immediately noticed a huge increase in soundstage depth (and an increase in width as well) and a more stable center image.

Pictures incoming to illustrate my point (you'll also see the amount of toe-in I use).....

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post #212 of 694 Old 03-24-2013, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Excuse the clutter. House looks like ****. Me and the wife have worked 3 consecutive 60+ hour weeks each. That's my excuse and I'm standing by it (and we have no kids). wink.gif

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post #213 of 694 Old 03-24-2013, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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So, you can see that the TV is now very close to the wall (and this is partly why I use the port plug for the A2 center). The entire TV stand was about 6-8 inches further out before I realized what was happening and the A5's closer to the back wall (which is hollow, I might add).

I was experimenting with toe-in and noticed that the center image would become MORE cohesive and "deep" when I toed the speakers more toward 90-degrees from the wall. Toe-out should weaken the center image and not strengthen it. So, the gears started turning and I thought about moving the A5s out some. Voila! They were way out into the room at the time but the image gelled perfectly. So I worked-backward and moved the TV and stand much closer to the wall and the A5s another 6 to 8 inches out and BAM.

Whatever reflections I was getting off of the TV were REALLY hurting the midrange. This fixed it.

I would rec trying some additional toe-in and moving them either further out from the wall or the TV further back, or both.

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post #214 of 694 Old 03-24-2013, 03:46 PM
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BTJ,

Trust me I hear ya when you say you are working hard. I work for a defense contractor as an Oracle DBA...very busy these days (beats the alternative). Also, dont appologize about the room...I actually cleaned up a little before I took the pic smile.gif

In any case, I will try your suggestions my friend. Oh and one other thing...I do not use any kind of EQ or Audyssey. I use a Radio Shack sound meter (old analog 33-2050) to balance the speakers for surround sound output. Will get back to ya after I make some adjustments and play around with the TV. I was also wondering about the big window...I'm sure it is causing some sort of negative interaction, unfortunately I'm kinda stuck with this orientation.

...and how do you guys get that SPL graph? What software/hardware are you using - REW?
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post #215 of 694 Old 03-24-2013, 04:51 PM
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BTJ,

Ok...I tried the room adjustments...and yes sir it made a difference! The PSB B6's still have a slightly better soundstage...however the ARX A1b's have improved to the point where I will leave them up for a while. I moved the TV back and moved the A1b's away from the back wall another 10 inches and things sound like the should. You know I moved the speaker out about 10 inches a couple of months ago and it helped but it wasn't enough to justify the move, so I moved them back..but what really did the trick was moving the TV back almost flush with the window. Thx man!
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post #216 of 694 Old 03-24-2013, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozoyad View Post

BTJ,

Ok...I tried the room adjustments...and yes sir it made a difference! The PSB B6's still have a slightly better soundstage...however the ARX A1b's have improved to the point where I will leave them up for a while. I moved the TV back and moved the A1b's away from the back wall another 10 inches and things sound like the should. You know I moved the speaker out about 10 inches a couple of months ago and it helped but it wasn't enough to justify the move, so I moved them back..but what really did the trick was moving the TV back almost flush with the window. Thx man!

Happy I could help, sir. smile.gif

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post #217 of 694 Old 03-24-2013, 05:50 PM
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lozoyad, I think three or four things are at work here.

Regardless of speaker, imaging is probably going to improve by pulling the stands out. I've gotten significantly different results in different rooms, even using the identical system and sources. This could end up in hours of tuning for you, but when you find the sweet spot I think anything you place in it will open up even more. I think Buford is onto something here.

Second, toe is critical. The planar tweeter has somewhat tighter directivity than average and does not broadcast the presence region as widely as a conventional dome tweeter typically does. There are pros and cons to this, but in general you'll get the harmonic and spatial balance both aligned when you toe the A1b so you can just see the inside walls of the cabinet from your chair. About halfway between square to the room and aimed right at you is preferred - Buford is right. Too wide and the image doesn't develop and too narrow and you can locate the speakers at the same time they become brighter. Less then a degree can make a big difference - I spend nearly as much time on this as I do geographical room placement.

Third, every multiway will come into better harmonic and spatial focus when you also achieve the proper vertical angle. If you're not already, try tipping the A1bs back so that while listening you are perpendicular to about the mid point on the front baffle. The planar tweeter is taller than average and you can miss important information if you're too far above its axis. Tuning this together with toe may very well be most of the trick here.

Lastly, the A1b's tuning, as I think you discovered already, favors a black, quiet background. This owes to the tweeter's larger surface area and correspondingly lower distortion as well as Arx's general sonic personality. Just as you may find it harder to localize each speaker when well established in the front stage per the above, it's the speaker's nature to reduce hifi artifacts that can sensationalize the sound. Even the ~40kHz dome tweeter in the Danas have somewhat more presence, although the Arx tweeter I think just has less overall personality in the crossover region. Good alignment relative to your seated position will optimize the highs, but they're not going to sound identical to a dome tweeter.

Overall, I'd encourage you to align angles and to reposition your stands out further in the room. Whether you wish to leave the speakers in such a position when you're done is up to you, but as en exercise I'm betting position and alignment are the missing elements.

Jon Lane
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post #218 of 694 Old 03-24-2013, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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As Jon recommended, i can only see a narrow sliver of the interior side of the cabinets from my listening position.

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post #219 of 694 Old 03-24-2013, 09:23 PM
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Help me out on this... Recently demoed monitor audio rx6 1200$ and rx8 1350$.. They also had psb t5 1000$ and t6 imagine 1150$ ...plus monitor audio bronze line. 850$ I think the monitor audio 6 & 8 Had a much better open floaty soundstage. The bronze had little depth, the psb was ok, but the silver rx series that much better.. I really liked them. Then i went to a different store and they had b&w 805 diamonds 3500$.. thats a great deal stands included.. The reason there gonna stick the motion line by martin logan. There actually hooking up new logan 40s as we speak. a large book shelf on factory stands.. My friend loves them so I decided to audition... They were ran of some 22 watt tube amp 2000$ ..While the other store ran modestly priced marantz all in one 1500$. So my jaw dropped when they turned on dire straights the salesmen and i.. Both huge smiles... So I'm getting up to leave and as I approach the speaker( volume is very low) and i realize its the martin logan motion 40s playing. The sales guy was so embarrassed..
So we now battle the b&w 805 diamonds 3500& vs logan 40s..1900$ honestly.. Logan's no break (remember) huge sound stage. Even though the diamonds were book shelves awesome bass and soundstage more separated not as big and they did everything a little better.. But by No means .... 1500$ better... These are like... 4500$ to 5000$ speakers all day with stands .. The motions are like 1400$ on ebay... My question is how do arx a5 stand up to the martin logan 40s and the rx8? I emailed this to the audio insider with no response given. Remember both martin logan and monitor audio & b&w have huge trickle down technology factor and r&d staff on pay roll... I understand and respect Id companies and also small hifi stores.. B&w Diamonds are out of my reach.. I really was blown away buy the Logan's and rx8.. How good really are the arx a5... I will be connecting them to a Yamaha rxv 1900 7.1 by 130 watts , front left and right 4 ohms stable..
Thanks all that can help...
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post #220 of 694 Old 03-25-2013, 03:30 PM
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Oh my goodness...Jon you are right! I just toed then per your recommendations...about half way between square and directly facing me and they made another leap in soundstaging depth and width. I tried even more toe-in but I like the half-way point much better. These now remind me of the Sierra-1's sound staging I had for demo in the fall. Very impressive these little A1b's have suddenly become.
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post #221 of 694 Old 03-25-2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lozoyad View Post

I just toed then per your recommendations...about half way between square and directly facing me and they made another leap in soundstaging depth and width. I tried even more toe-in but I like the half-way point much better.

That's good to hear, especially since it confirms the design center. If you haven't already, also tip them back a little so you're square with some point in the upper half of the front baffle.

Now wait for a silent evening and try that Brothers in Arms again. It should just hang there in the space. This is not actually a function of cost or a purely technical design discipline. It's something any decent pair of drivers can do when they get along well together.

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post #222 of 694 Old 03-25-2013, 05:52 PM
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I became a big fan of Dire Straits after hearing Brothers in Arms with the Arx speakers. Hanging there in space is the perfect way to describe that alblum. That and very dynamic.
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post #223 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Lozo, I don't mean to be a bother, but would you mind sharing some of your listening impressions once you get some more time on the A1bs in their current configuration? I know you're busy, but I'd really like to hear what your thoughts are now.

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post #224 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lozoyad View Post



For example I almost settled on the Ascend Sierra-1, wonderful build, 3D imaging and soundstage. However, to my ears they sounded a bit too forward. These were the baseline non-NrT speakers. The designer and I went back and forth..he couldn't believe I thought they were too bright. IMO (getting on soapbox),

I have a pair of standard sierra 1, and i cant believe someone would think these speakers are bright in anyway. Forward? yes, in the mid a bit, the highs are bright? I thought Dave went with the nrt upgrade because some people complaint the laid back of the highs? Anyway, we all do hear differently. Great to hear the b1 are good for your specially these are going for only 300 buck a pair, im very impressed to say.
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post #225 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 03:35 PM
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Anyway, we all do hear differently.

Exactly

I think the whole speaker "lingo" can get a bit lost in translation too. I've seen people mention something is bright before until it's obvious its the midrange they thought was a little too hot or forward in the mix and someone pointed it out to them. Hard to say what's what too without knowing the freq. range he's hearing problems with


Jon, I know you're building some new speakers (I think...a6? or something), but do you have any plans as far as a change for the enclosure? Not that there is anything wrong at all...just asking. smile.gif

I was looking at the Ascend Sierra towers and I realized they have the same cone area and the A5's. Didn't ever notice that they had 5.25" drivers! I don't see much mention of problems driving them to louder levels so I'm sure it's plenty and would be for me, especially when running a sub or multiples. There's a lot of love for those Sierra Towers..so I'm sure 5.25's can work just fine for most. (saying this because I ask about a larger tower possibly incorporating larger woofers/midrange earlier)

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post #226 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

Anyway, we all do hear differently.

Exactly

I think the whole speaker "lingo" can get a bit lost in translation too. I've seen people mention something is bright before until it's obvious its the midrange they thought was a little too hot or forward in the mix and someone pointed it out to them. Hard to say what's what too without knowing the freq. range he's hearing problems with


Jon, I know you're building some new speakers (I think...a6? or something), but do you have any plans as far as a change for the enclosure? Not that there is anything wrong at all...just asking. smile.gif

I was looking at the Ascend Sierra towers and I realized they have the same cone area and the A5's. Didn't ever notice that they had 5.25" drivers! I don't see much mention of problems driving them to louder levels so I'm sure it's plenty and would be for me, especially when running a sub or multiples. There's a lot of love for those Sierra Towers..so I'm sure 5.25's can work just fine for most. (saying this because I ask about a larger tower possibly incorporating larger woofers/midrange earlier)

BINGO in bold.


As for other speakers in development, I just got off the phone with Jon a few minutes ago and the answer is a categorical "yes".

The A5's and the Sierra Towers are very similar, though the Sierra's have a slightly different driver compliment. The A5's actually have three 5.25" midwoofers and one 5.25" midrange. They are tuned and voiced differently and they both use quality drivers so that doesn't really indicate any type of advantage that one has over the other....they are very similar concepts. The Sierra Towers certainly perform far above their "weight" in pugilistic terms. I don't think anybody needs to make apologies for their driver size at all smile.gif

As far as cabinet material, did you have a specific request on material or construction i/e bracing, internal coatings, etc.?

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post #227 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 07:17 PM
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Wow I posted a huge ? No response , does anyone hear have any knowledge on outside of what they own? You guys are arx owners? How do they compare to what I wrote?
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post #228 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 08:06 PM
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My question is how do arx a5 stand up to the martin logan 40s and the rx8? I emailed this to the audio insider with no response given
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Wow I posted a huge ? No response , does anyone hear have any knowledge on outside of what they own? You guys are arx owners? How do they compare to what I wrote?

There's actually a ton of knowledge on this forum, so that's not really the issue. Perhaps no one who has directly compared the A5's to the ML's or MA's has logged on and looked at this thread in the day or two since you posted your question? You may ultimately not find anyone with the direct experience you seek though, but that doesn't have any bearing on the level of expertise of the AVS members. If you're comfortable with conjecture then there's probably several who could speculate, but maybe someone with empirical knowledge will chime in at some point.

As far as someone from TAI responding about which speaker is best? I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume they can answer a question like that. I don't envision a scenario where Henry Ford would ever say that a GM car is better than one of his own -- even if it were -- so it doesn't seem plausible TAI would either. That strikes me as a no-win situation for those folks, and in such a case silence is often better then responding and potentially saying something that might be construed as biased.

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post #229 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 08:38 PM
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Wow I posted a huge ? No response , does anyone hear have any knowledge on outside of what they own? You guys are arx owners? How do they compare to what I wrote?

rolleyes.gif

Thats a very ironic post lol

It's a subjective hobby. No response will tell you what you like more, if speaker A is better than speaker B even though one is different price, etc. Then you get in to other subjective matters such as aesthetics. Sometimes you just have to make a decision and go with it. I wish I could hear every speaker and then make my decision, but it doesn't work that way.

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post #230 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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BTJ,

Trust me I hear ya when you say you are working hard. I work for a defense contractor as an Oracle DBA...very busy these days (beats the alternative). Also, dont appologize about the room...I actually cleaned up a little before I took the pic smile.gif

In any case, I will try your suggestions my friend. Oh and one other thing...I do not use any kind of EQ or Audyssey. I use a Radio Shack sound meter (old analog 33-2050) to balance the speakers for surround sound output. Will get back to ya after I make some adjustments and play around with the TV. I was also wondering about the big window...I'm sure it is causing some sort of negative interaction, unfortunately I'm kinda stuck with this orientation.

...and how do you guys get that SPL graph? What software/hardware are you using - REW?

I haven't been ignoring this question....I'm sorry for forgetting to answer it. REW is probably the most common way of getting an acoustic "snapshot" of your loudspeakers and room. They even sell packages with a microphone so all you need is a laptop. Lemme find a link for you....

EDIT: I could have sworn that they had links to recommended mics (you still need an SPL meter). Here is a list of required equipment:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/wizardhelpv5/help_en-GB/html/gettingstarted.html#connections

Here is the main REW page:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Just join HTSforums and you can download the software for free. A large or diaphragm condenser microphone with a decent pre-amp will give you most accurate wide-band measurement results. Dynamic mics, IMHO, are only truly suited to bass measurements (and even then, due to higher diaphragm mass, can muddy those measurements as well). Lots of info on their forums. I hope that helps.

DOUBLE EDIT: More good stuff.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/spl-meters-mics-calibration-sound-cards/

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/

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post #231 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 09:25 PM
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Wow, so what your telling me you've never heard any of these.. B&w diamond series a Classic... Probably what all speakers wish they could be.. Or the highly acclaimed martin logan new motion series or the RX series by audio monitor.. That's such ********... Yeah listening is subjective but I'm sure the only to speakers I here about in here are ascend or arx.. Just give me a thought.. It sounds like a bunch of soup nazis here .. What do the arx sound like polk , kef, atlantic , klipsch, infinty , silverline, Wilson, etc.. anybody with an idea.. Thanks
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post #232 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 09:29 PM
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It's like I watch only my team, and one other .. Even though there's a bunch of teams.. A true fan watches them all. Or a snobby fan just there's . Just help me out..
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post #233 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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It's like I watch only my team, and one other .. Even though there's a bunch of teams.. A true fan watches them all. Or a snobby fan just there's . Just help me out..

Check your inbox. wink.gif

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
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post #234 of 694 Old 03-26-2013, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, if you like Timberlake, his new album is damn good. Damn good, IMHO.

Arcam AVR300, Panny BDT-500, Toshiba SD-9200 CD transport, Vizio XVT 55" LED/LCD (full direct-backlit w/ local dimming), Arx A5 & A3rx-c Mains, Arx A2rx-c center, HSU VTF-15h, BJC ten white w/ ultrasonically welded connectors.
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post #235 of 694 Old 03-27-2013, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by riddledwitlead View Post

Wow, so what your telling me you've never heard any of these.. B&w diamond series a Classic... Probably what all speakers wish they could be.. Or the highly acclaimed martin logan new motion series or the RX series by audio monitor.. That's such ********... Yeah listening is subjective but I'm sure the only to speakers I here about in here are ascend or arx.. Just give me a thought.. It sounds like a bunch of soup nazis here .. What do the arx sound like polk , kef, atlantic , klipsch, infinty , silverline, Wilson, etc.. anybody with an idea.. Thanks

When you have a question about comparing two or more brands of speakers, start a new thread with a clear descriptive title and people that know both brands will see it and respond.

Don't get testy with us, just learn how to use the forums effectively.
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post #236 of 694 Old 03-27-2013, 06:06 AM
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riddledwitlead, kindly check your spam folder. In a note on the 25th, I included thoughts on SplitGap, the 2nd gen Arx tweeter, and our general design philosophy. I can resend if you wish...

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post #237 of 694 Old 03-27-2013, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by riddledwitlead View Post

It's like I watch only my team, and one other .. Even though there's a bunch of teams.. A true fan watches them all. Or a snobby fan just there's . Just help me out..

If that's the case then why can't you answer your own question, Mr. True Fan? You're expecting everyone else to do what you can't/haven't/won't? You're going to do really well here... rolleyes.gif

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #238 of 694 Old 03-27-2013, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnacleBill View Post

When you have a question about comparing two or more brands of speakers, start a new thread with a clear descriptive title and people that know both brands will see it and respond.

Don't get testy with us, just learn how to use the forums effectively.

Amen to that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

riddledwitlead, kindly check your spam folder. In a note on the 25th, I included thoughts on SplitGap, the 2nd gen Arx tweeter, and our general design philosophy. I can resend if you wish...

Good luck with this one Jon...

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #239 of 694 Old 03-27-2013, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by riddledwitlead View Post

Wow, so what your telling me you've never heard any of these.. B&w diamond series a Classic... Probably what all speakers wish they could be.. Or the highly acclaimed martin logan new motion series or the RX series by audio monitor.. That's such ********... Yeah listening is subjective but I'm sure the only to speakers I here about in here are ascend or arx.. Just give me a thought.. It sounds like a bunch of soup nazis here .. What do the arx sound like polk , kef, atlantic , klipsch, infinty , silverline, Wilson, etc.. anybody with an idea.. Thanks

Arx speakers sound like Arx speakers. As for a thought, how about you figure out why people talk about a specific brand of speakers in a thread dedicated to that brand of speakers.

When life gives you lemons, punch life in the nuts. -me-
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post #240 of 694 Old 03-27-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riddledwitlead View Post

Wow, so what your telling me you've never heard any of these.. B&w diamond series a Classic... Probably what all speakers wish they could be.. Or the highly acclaimed martin logan new motion series or the RX series by audio monitor.. That's such ********... Yeah listening is subjective but I'm sure the only to speakers I here about in here are ascend or arx.. Just give me a thought.. It sounds like a bunch of soup nazis here .. What do the arx sound like polk , kef, atlantic , klipsch, infinty , silverline, Wilson, etc.. anybody with an idea.. Thanks

In my limited experience, I would say the Arx A1bs are a neutral, somewhat "laid back" speaker able to project a coherent wide soundstage with above average imaging for much less than any other speaker within $500 of its price range.

Many people have good comments about all of the speakers you mention, but many people also have limiting comments about them ( i.e. Klipsch being too bright or harsh in the treble range).
I have not seen many limiting comments about the Arx A1bs on this forum. I think Lozoyad's experience ( 20 or so posts above this) is a good example of how amazing these speakers can sound for the price.

If you can afford Wilson, Revel, Magico, etc. speakers, by all means get them. They will be superior to the Arxs in many ways. Of course, we Arx owners will be able to afford our dinner at Denny's with the change left over.......rolleyes.gif.......
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