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post #1 of 46 Old 09-16-2012, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Any recommendations for in wall / ceiling speakers? I'm looking at a 7.1 surround system. I don't even know which makes to even consider as I'm new to h US so any help is really apprechiated. I don't have a set budget righ now but I guess I wouldn't want to spen over $3k.
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post #2 of 46 Old 09-16-2012, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

Any recommendations for in wall / ceiling speakers? I'm looking at a 7.1 surround system. I don't even know which makes to even consider as I'm new to h US so any help is really apprechiated. I don't have a set budget righ now but I guess I wouldn't want to spen over $3k.

We use a 5.1 setup.

Speakers we like:
James loudspeakers
Triad
Definitive Technology
Atlantic Technology
Paradigm

VSX-53, VSX-51,VSX-81 Pioneer Elites and Denon 1611
James loudspeaker inwalls main and future theater
Control4
Other speaker zones DefTech, Polk, Russound, Boston Acoustics
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post #3 of 46 Old 09-16-2012, 09:02 PM
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How big is the room and does the up to $3K budget for all speakers or are you including other items in the cost (electrical, install, subwoofer, acoustic treatments, etc.). What are you using to power them? The list above from the other post is a great start. In your research, also take a look at Klipsch and definately look at the Def Techs.
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post #4 of 46 Old 09-17-2012, 10:42 AM
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I am building a new house, and will probably go with in-wall speakers (need to keep the boss happy). I was curious though, do you keep the center speaker external (I have an Energy center channel that resides on my AV stand now), or is that also in-wall mounted? Also, does anyone have any thoughts on these? I would use them for the front left/right and the rear surrounds as well:

http://www.aperionaudio.com/speakers/architectural/new-intimus-l6-iw-in-wall-speaker

Sorry to hijack, just thought I would ask since the discussion started.

Greg
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post #5 of 46 Old 09-17-2012, 04:44 PM
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No enclosure, but at that price point I would not expect one. Also note that the whole speaker weighs 4 pounds. Not much to it. Post number two gave you a pretty good list. i would also consider RBH speakers.

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post #6 of 46 Old 09-17-2012, 06:04 PM
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I wish I had that kind of budget for my system. I am sure I will be slammed for this, but when I had the Monoprice speakers in my old house I, as well as my friends that had/have considerably more expensive systems than I could ever afford, were thoroughly blown away by them. If they would fit in my new house I wouldnt hesitate to install them again.

Once they are installed, noone will be able to notice what brand they are. Sort of liek my in-laws friends. Have had numerous BMW's and Mercedes (all the highest models) and for their new car they bought a Hyundai Genesis. They said they like it better than the BMW's they had, and they said it was just like their last Mercedes, but for $25k less!

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Yamaha RX-V765 / PSB B5's Fronts / PSB C4 Center / Micca R-65 In-Ceiling Rears / BIC F12 Sub
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post #7 of 46 Old 09-17-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by border411 View Post

I wish I had that kind of budget for my system. I am sure I will be slammed for this, but when I had the Monoprice speakers in my old house I, as well as my friends that had/have considerably more expensive systems than I could ever afford, were thoroughly blown away by them. If they would fit in my new house I wouldnt hesitate to install them again.
Once they are installed, noone will be able to notice what brand they are. Sort of liek my in-laws friends. Have had numerous BMW's and Mercedes (all the highest models) and for their new car they bought a Hyundai Genesis. They said they like it better than the BMW's they had, and they said it was just like their last Mercedes, but for $25k less!

No slam from me if thats what you like then thats great.

My Speaker upgrade... I Noticed... smile.gif

Its taken me a long time to save and I don't drive a new vehicle so no car payment.

No debt on my toys save save save.

Thanks Dave Ramsey... LOL

VSX-53, VSX-51,VSX-81 Pioneer Elites and Denon 1611
James loudspeaker inwalls main and future theater
Control4
Other speaker zones DefTech, Polk, Russound, Boston Acoustics
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post #8 of 46 Old 09-28-2012, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry I haven't replied sooner - I have been travelling and very busy for work.
Thanks of the list of speaker companies..
The $3K is really just a ball park figure. I was only including the speakers in that figure.
We are completing our basement so I won't actually have any money left at the end of it in the short term :-(
My current thinking is that I need to purchase and feed the speaker wire to the relevant points where the speakers will be positioned & for the short term it will be covered by dry-wall.

So I essentially need to decide on the speaker arrangement.. I am thinking of an in-wall Left, Right and Center speaker. For the rears I need ceiling speakers as I don't have a back wall.. I have a very long room and the back half of the room is going to be used as a games room.
My seating/sofa position is 15 ft back from the television btw.
Looking at Def Tech I see they sell some in-wall bi-polars which could be used for the side speakers.. This sounds quite appealing to me rather than using ceiling speakers as I am guessing they will sound better, but I have limited space due to a window so I need to look at where these are positioned - I assume they should be positioned in line with the sofa?

I wasn't planning on purchasing an acoustic treatment or insulation but I can be persuaded otherwise..

I am working on a 3D model of the room so will try to add the sofa position to that this weekend and post it.. Here is a picture for now. Note the sofa will be just behind the 2nd window on the right (when facing the TV). basement.jpg 60k .jpg file
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post #9 of 46 Old 09-28-2012, 08:31 PM
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I am using the Deftech UIW RLS II series for mains (in-wall) and UIW RSS IIIseries for side surrounds (inceiling). Very happy with the audio quality.

Speakers:
http://www.definitivetech.com/products/in-wall-in-ceiling-speakers/

Are you going with a projector in the room?

And yes, spring for the insulation. Makes a huge difference. Just get the normal fluffy pink or yellow stuff, don't buy expensive accoustically insulation, you do not get the return on investment.
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post #10 of 46 Old 10-01-2012, 11:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
I am not going for a projector - mainly because the other half is very anti a projector.
What are you using for your center? I see the UIW RLS II is not recommended to be positioned horizontally.
The UIW RSS III series look interesting - especially as I could install them in the wall too.
Did you also go for an in-wall sub?

Sorry what sort of insulation would you recommend? The outside walls are already insulated, but I think I need to get some thinner insulation to allow both the insulation and the speakers to fit in the cavity walls.
Thanks.
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post #11 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 07:29 AM
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If you are installing in-wall speakers on your outer walls, please ensure that you repair any cuts, tears or holes in the vapor barrier. I created boxes (picture a shirt box without a top) out of plastic sheeting and sealed them in behind the in-wall speakers with aluminum siding tape.

Ack_bk was simply saying to use standard building insulation (Corning Pink roll or the yellow stuff) to save money. I was able to add another layer of insulation behind my speakers since my walls were 2X6 construction.
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post #12 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

Hi,
I am not going for a projector - mainly because the other half is very anti a projector.
What are you using for your center? I see the UIW RLS II is not recommended to be positioned horizontally.
The UIW RSS III series look interesting - especially as I could install them in the wall too.
Did you also go for an in-wall sub?
Sorry what sort of insulation would you recommend? The outside walls are already insulated, but I think I need to get some thinner insulation to allow both the insulation and the speakers to fit in the cavity walls.
Thanks.

I have three UIW RLS II speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen all mounted vertically. I think the RLS III speakers would be fine for your room. Deftech uses the same driver and tweeter in many of their speaker lines, so you may be able to mix and match in-wall speakers with on-wall or in-room speakers if it makes it easier for center speaker placement.

I don't recommend in-wall subs as subs can often be tricky to integrate into a room and it is dependent on where you sit and the room acoustics. If you can, I would recommend going with an in-room subwoofer. If aesthetics are important there are some options here and you can get a smaller subwoofer that actually has strong output for a resonable price that would easily outperform an in-wall sub. For example this sub:
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb12-nsd

As for insulation,what Scout's Staff said for the exterior walls. If you are building new interior walls, use standard R-13 pink or yellow insulation. Look for sales, this stuff can usually be found on a deal. Don't forget the ceiling. I recommend R-19 batts.
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post #13 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Good point about the vapour barrier. Coming from the UK I didn't realise what that was for and just assumed it was to keep the insulation in place. I have a builder doing the actual work so I'll make sure we figure out an appropriate solution. The only place I would need to break the vapour seal is for the center speaker and one side speaker. If you look at the attached you will see my front TV wall and side wall. The Front wall has a brick bottom which is why there is a ledge. I see this design on a lot of houses here. I'm hoping I can mount the side speakers above the ledge as that can easily be built out so the wall is flat. That may restrict the height of the speakers though. I would certainly need to do something different for the center speaker - maybe going for a standard (non in-wall) center would be easier.
For the outside side wall I would certainly need to do something. Someone told me you can buy a highly rated insulation that is thinner to allow the speaker to fit into the panel? So I would just make sure the vapour barrier was on the studs outside of where I am going to fit the speaker and then put a different solution in that one stud..
IMAG0553.jpg 1300k .jpg file
IMAG0735.jpg 805k .jpg file

Thanks for all your help.. It would be hard enough trying to figure this out in the UK, but having to do this in a new country makes it even harder given that I am also on a time line as the buidler start on the 22nd :-(
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post #14 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

Good point about the vapour barrier. Coming from the UK I didn't realise what that was for and just assumed it was to keep the insulation in place. I have a builder doing the actual work so I'll make sure we figure out an appropriate solution. The only place I would need to break the vapour seal is for the center speaker and one side speaker. If you look at the attached you will see my front TV wall and side wall. The Front wall has a brick bottom which is why there is a ledge. I see this design on a lot of houses here. I'm hoping I can mount the side speakers above the ledge as that can easily be built out so the wall is flat. That may restrict the height of the speakers though. I would certainly need to do something different for the center speaker - maybe going for a standard (non in-wall) center would be easier.
For the outside side wall I would certainly need to do something. Someone told me you can buy a highly rated insulation that is thinner to allow the speaker to fit into the panel? So I would just make sure the vapour barrier was on the studs outside of where I am going to fit the speaker and then put a different solution in that one stud..
IMAG0553.jpg 1300k .jpg file
IMAG0735.jpg 805k .jpg file
Thanks for all your help.. It would be hard enough trying to figure this out in the UK, but having to do this in a new country makes it even harder given that I am also on a time line as the buidler start on the 22nd :-(

Your other option is to build another interior wall within your room for your outside walls. Meaning you build a seperate interior wall that you would place your speakers in and use something like Roxul Safe And Sound for those interior walls since it will not create moisture:
http://www.roxul.com/residential/products/roxul+safe%27n%27sound%E2%84%A2

I was in a similar situation and here is my main speaker wall. Note the outside wall that is already insulated with vapor barrier. Then note the interior wall I build where the screen and speakers were housed:
IMG_3269.jpg

The here is the wall with Roxul Safe and Sound before the speakers are installed:
IMG_3310.jpg

And here are the installed speakers in the wall:
2011_0414AA.jpg
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post #15 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Very interesting. The setup does look very similar. I assume you went for a projector. Building out the side walls would make this a very big job as the room is very long and I don't really want to loose too much space, but I could certainly do it on the front walls. I was hoping I wouldn't need to & hadn't really considered it until now.
Could I be really cheaky and ask for a picture of your front wall with fire place? I assume you have a 45 degree fireplace and it looks exactly like what we would be going for. I wasn't sure if it would need a mantle & hearth but seeing what I can of yours it looks good without (unless its hiding).
The width of my back wall is 9ft. How does that compare with yours?
Also did you go for a 5.1 setup or a 7.1 setup? I have always had a 5.1 setup, but was considering a 7.1 setup just because its a new build and I thought I should. If I go 5.1 & just ceiling speakers, that also removes the potential issue with the side speaker. I'm also not really sure what 7.1 is going to really buy me over 5.1.
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post #16 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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OK I misread your last email - so you have Roxul Safe And Sound in your interior walls but not on your outside wall that is just an empty cavity.. With the issue of the outside side wall I think I am going back to the ceiling idea for the rears and optionall the sides depeding on if I go for a 5.1 or 7.1 setup....
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post #17 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

Very interesting. The setup does look very similar. I assume you went for a projector. Building out the side walls would make this a very big job as the room is very long and I don't really want to loose too much space, but I could certainly do it on the front walls. I was hoping I wouldn't need to & hadn't really considered it until now.
Could I be really cheaky and ask for a picture of your front wall with fire place? I assume you have a 45 degree fireplace and it looks exactly like what we would be going for. I wasn't sure if it would need a mantle & hearth but seeing what I can of yours it looks good without (unless its hiding).
The width of my back wall is 9ft. How does that compare with yours?
Also did you go for a 5.1 setup or a 7.1 setup? I have always had a 5.1 setup, but was considering a 7.1 setup just because its a new build and I thought I should. If I go 5.1 & just ceiling speakers, that also removes the potential issue with the side speaker. I'm also not really sure what 7.1 is going to really buy me over 5.1.

For the back and front exterior walls, I did not build interior walls. For all the exterior walls, there was insulation in place. For the side walls of the house (this is in the basement) I built the interior wall on the speaker/screen side and I also liked the idea of the additional Roxul insulation on the wall that had the fireplace since Roxul is a fire retarder and would buy my family more time to get out of the house in case of a fire.

My media/family room in the basement is large. Roughly 19' wide and 32' long and I do have a bar area and will be adding an airhockey area. I had to go with in-ceiling surrounds and I went with on-wall rears for 7.2 audio. Even if you decide to just go with 5.1 now, I would recommend wiring for 7.2. It is cheap to wire before the room is built vs after smile.gif

I am glad I went with 7 speakers since I watch a lot of Blu-Ray movies and more and more movies seem to have 7.1 tracks. Blu-Ray stats shows roughly 339 movies with 7.1 tracks. It adds some additional ambience and surround sounds, and IMHO is worth the upgrade if your room allows. That said, I would focus my speaker budget on the front three speakers and your subwoofer. This is where the majority of your critical sound will come from. You can always wire for 7.1, do 5.1 now, and add the rear channels as the budget allows.

Here are some more pics of my front wall and room to give you an idea. Is this room in your basement?

2011_0509AB.jpg

In this shot you can see the side surround in the ceiling:

2011_0509AJ.jpg

And a pic of the Deftech UIW RLS III in-ceiling surround speaker:
2011_0410AC.jpg

For the rear speaker, I would recommend in-wall or on-wall if you can vs in-ceiling, but in-ceiling will still work.

Let me know if I can help in any way if you have more questions.
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post #18 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the information - this is really great :-)
The rear wall is very far back from the seating position (just behing the 2nd window from the TV) so I certainly think I need to go with in-ceiling speakers for that unfortunately (see basement plan that I posted earlier).
I think I'm back to the idea of 7.1.
I would have L&R in-wall with the center either in-wall or sitting on a stand.
I believe the side speakers should be in line with the sofa at ear level which shouldn't be a problem (They would be just behind the 2nd wndow (from the TV wall)).

Then for the rears I need to really either mount them in-ceiling or have something hanging down from the ceiling. Any other suggestions? I assume I can't mount them on the side wall.
Any idea on how the rears should be positioned?

I see you don't have a grill on your Deftech UIW RLS III's but they do come with them don't they? Just checking because the O/H won't like the grills showing on the walls and the kids will probably damage them too.
Thanks.
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post #19 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

Thanks for all the information - this is really great :-)
The rear wall is very far back from the seating position (just behing the 2nd window from the TV) so I certainly think I need to go with in-ceiling speakers for that unfortunately (see basement plan that I posted earlier).
I think I'm back to the idea of 7.1.
I would have L&R in-wall with the center either in-wall or sitting on a stand.
I believe the side speakers should be in line with the sofa at ear level which shouldn't be a problem (They would be just behind the 2nd wndow (from the TV wall)).
Then for the rears I need to really either mount them in-ceiling or have something hanging down from the ceiling. Any other suggestions? I assume I can't mount them on the side wall.
Any idea on how the rears should be positioned?
I see you don't have a grill on your Deftech UIW RLS III's but they do come with them don't they? Just checking because the O/H won't like the grills showing on the walls and the kids will probably damage them too.
Thanks.

The surrounds do have grills, I just took them off for the picture after I installed them smile.gif

As far as your rear surrounds, I would probably consider speakers that have a design like these for in-ceiling:
http://www.definitivetech.com/products/uiw-rcs-ii

If you notice, you will see that the speakers have an angled woofer/tweeter and this allows you to direct the sound towards the listening position. They also have a sealed enclosure which I do recommend. You really want speakers that have a 40-50 degree angled woofer/tweeter as many in-ceiling speakers only allow for 15-20 degrees. And there are other manufacturers such as Triad, Episode, B&W, Atlantic Technology, that also offer similar designs for in-ceiling rears (I don't want you to think that I am just pimping Deftech). You could hang some satellite speakers from the ceiling, as well, but you will need to decide if this is aesthetically pleasing to you or not. I will eventually replace my on-wall rear speakers with in-wall as my wife just does not love speakers mounted to the wall and has really liked the aesthetics of the in-wall and in-ceiling speakers.

As for rear placement, I would use this as a guide:


As for subwoofer placement, you can typically get more bass if you stick them in the front or rear corners of the room as the walls will typically reinforce bass. I would recommend wiring for a sub in the front and in the back of the room in case you want to have more than one subwoofer down the road.

Also for wiring needs, I highly recommend www.monoprice.com. Quality cables at great prices. So many times people overspend on cables and could have used the money for their AV gear.
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post #20 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Haha - I was considering on-wall speakers everywhere but the O/H doesn't like them and I think your response just told me to completely forget that idea :-) I like your idea of building out the wall, I just need to check if it will fit in with the fireplace.
Thanks for the placement giude. I have seen similar but I'm wondering how far back the speakers should be positioned or if it even matters. With 15' to the TV, should I have 15' behind or doesn't it matter?
I see quite a few people recommend the sealed enclosure for the in-wall speakers so I will try to keep to that.
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post #21 of 46 Old 10-02-2012, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

Haha - I was considering on-wall speakers everywhere but the O/H doesn't like them and I think your response just told me to completely forget that idea :-) I like your idea of building out the wall, I just need to check if it will fit in with the fireplace.
Thanks for the placement giude. I have seen similar but I'm wondering how far back the speakers should be positioned or if it even matters. With 15' to the TV, should I have 15' behind or doesn't it matter?
I see quite a few people recommend the sealed enclosure for the in-wall speakers so I will try to keep to that.

I think you are fine at 15' to the rear wall. I am further than that and can easily hear the 7 channels. Closer might be a little more ideal, but it is just surround sound and it is more important to position yourself and place your front three speakers properly.

Yes, enclosures make a difference. My upstairs living-room has Speakercraft in-ceiling speakers that are not enclosed and the sound bleeds through to upstairs. I bought a cheap enclosed speaker to test the sound difference and was pretty surprised at the difference the enclosed speaker made. Much less bleed-through. Needless to say I will be using the Speakercaft speakers somewhere else and will be upgrading to a better enclosed speaker down the road.

Consider:
http://www.cepro.com/article/how_to_prevent_audio_loss_with_in_wall_speaker_systems/

One thing to consider is that Deftech sells refurbished speakers via Ebay from the authorized seller bajawaverunner. I bought my UIW RLS III surrounds and my on-wall surrounds from him and saved over 50% off the MSRP. The speakers were in brand new condition and worked just fine (he does have a good return policy if there are issues) and if you want a warranty you can get one via Squaretrade (which is what I did). My surrounds were $270 apiece shipped, vs $450-500 I was finding elsewhere.
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post #22 of 46 Old 10-04-2012, 12:54 PM
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I recently bought some DefTech RLS III on ebay that were significantly less than list price. I bought from seller hometheaterspeakersandsubs. No issues and the speakers were Brand New In Box as advertised.

I am all for buying through authorized dealers, but you have to question how the 'unauthorized' dealers are getting their stock. I am sure they are getting them through the same distributors as the 'authorized' ones.

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post #23 of 46 Old 10-04-2012, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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What speaker wire would you recommend?
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post #24 of 46 Old 10-05-2012, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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After reading various posts & especially this http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm which is referenced in a number of places on this forum I am opting towards the monoprice 2821 http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023902&p_id=2821&seq=1&format=2
Any reason why that is a basd move?
I was going to pick up some QED speaker wire from the UK but after reading the above I am fairly happy that I didn't as that would have cost me quite a bit and now I can put that money towards the speakers or otherequipment :-)
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post #25 of 46 Old 10-05-2012, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

After reading various posts & especially this http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm which is referenced in a number of places on this forum I am opting towards the monoprice 2821 http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023902&p_id=2821&seq=1&format=2
Any reason why that is a basd move?
I was going to pick up some QED speaker wire from the UK but after reading the above I am fairly happy that I didn't as that would have cost me quite a bit and now I can put that money towards the speakers or otherequipment :-)

That is the same wire I used and it is very good quality. Back in the late 90's I fell for the Monster speaker wire sales pitch and used that exclusively until I got educated smile.gif

I still have some Monster cable that I found on a great deal when Circuit City was closing their doors, but you won't notice any difference between it, and the Monoprice cable.

I also recommend buying your HDMI cables and subwoofer cables from Monoprice.
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post #26 of 46 Old 10-07-2012, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you happen to know the minimum distance the UIW RLS II (or IIIs) should be from the wall.. I saw a recommendation of 2 foot from the wall for some other speakers and given that I am short of space on that back wall that would really limit the size of TV I could fit in :-( I assume the corner is going to add bass if I get the speaker to close, but I'm hoping I can position them 1 foot in from the wall. The left speaker is less of an issue as that will just be near the fireplace, but that right speaker will need to be relatively close to the wall and then I want to balance the space between the wall and the fireplace.
Anyway I've sent an email to Def Tech to ask, but wondered if you saw anything in the instruction manual that came with yours. I don't see anyting on the online version.
Thanks.
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post #27 of 46 Old 10-07-2012, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerednai View Post

Do you happen to know the minimum distance the UIW RLS II (or IIIs) should be from the wall.. I saw a recommendation of 2 foot from the wall for some other speakers and given that I am short of space on that back wall that would really limit the size of TV I could fit in :-( I assume the corner is going to add bass if I get the speaker to close, but I'm hoping I can position them 1 foot in from the wall. The left speaker is less of an issue as that will just be near the fireplace, but that right speaker will need to be relatively close to the wall and then I want to balance the space between the wall and the fireplace.
Anyway I've sent an email to Def Tech to ask, but wondered if you saw anything in the instruction manual that came with yours. I don't see anyting on the online version.
Thanks.

I would wait to see what Deftech recommends, but I think 12" would be adequate.
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post #28 of 46 Old 10-07-2012, 08:53 PM
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My impression is if you have no back wall, not much point in 7.1 Put the 5.1 surrounds in the ceiling above and perhaps a tad behind you and spaced to the sides of your primary seating. WIll you have side walls you could use for the surrounds - 5.1 surrounds would sound better there than overhead.
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post #29 of 46 Old 10-08-2012, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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No I don't have a backwall.
My plan right now is to get in-walls for the front left and right.
For the center I will either put it in the wall or have a standard center sitting on top of a stand with all my equipment in. The limitation here is more to do with building limitations. I could certainly put the center in-wall above the TV, but I think this would be too high.
In-walls for the side surround speakers & then mount the rear speakers in the ceiling.
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post #30 of 46 Old 10-08-2012, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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After chatting to the builder today I'm back to in-ceiling speakers for the sides too..
So now we are looking like:

L& R In-wall (e.g. UIW RLS III)
Center free standing (TBD)
Side Surround In-ceiling (e.g. UIW RCS II or maybe UIW RCS III)
Rear In-ceiling (e.g. UIW RCS II or maybe UIW RCS III)

I know the in ceiling probably isn't as good as in wall but I think in-ceiling is going to be more pleasing for the O/H and then I don't have to worry about any outside wall insulation issues, which living in MN I don't want to have to deal with afterwards.
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