Just wondering about home audio speaker wire - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 06:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mupi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec88 View Post

I'm thinking about getting AudioQuest Type 4 speaker cables. The dealer offered me a good deal. I got a bunch of audio stuff from him before so he told me I could try them out and if I liked them I could keep them at discount price. smile.gif

I am not sure if your post is sarcastic or serious or funny. Audioquest brand is not ridiculously expensive unlike many "snake oil" brands . If I get a good deal from the store, they are fine. But I would not pay full retail for them.

I have seen some guys just buy an interconnect from the store after spending several hours doing speaker auditioning just so that they want to make the time worth while to the store. They just thought some $30-40 bucks was worth all the auditioning they got as they were sure that they were not going to buy any speaker from the store. They didn't buy those cables just because they thought it is going to make a difference.

No one needs anything more than what is sold at Monoprice smile.gif
Mupi is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 07:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bfreedma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 9 iron from Philly
Posts: 1,952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec88 View Post

Ah, the same links posted over and over on just about every AV forum there is. Especially the Roger Russell link. And the same insults and ridicule torwards anyone that says anything good about cables that aren't from a very low priced brand as well. They assume that the masses of people who use these products must all be stupid or just hearing things and need to be educated. They'll bash a product without even having used it, I suspect just like here. Bill, here's some news for you: Engineers will have differing opinions. I'm sure Mr. Russell is an experienced Mac engineer, but he's not the only experienced engineer in the world. Cable companies have their own engineers that are probably just as experienced and I'm sure that they're not all involved in some grand conspiracy to sell you something that doesn't do what it's designed for. BTW, Mcintosh now sells their own high end uber cables. So does Luxman. Yeah, they're now involved in the conspiracy to sell everyone the same kind of snake oil cables. eek.gif

Those links are posted frequently because they are factual and verifiable. If you have any similar links supporting your view, now would be an excellent time to post them (preferably not from high end cable vendors).

Cable company engineers are a part of the same "conspiracy" as every other employee - developing something to separate the consumer from their money. If it were any other case, the cable companies would be rushing to publish technical documentation that included measurements showing audible improvement via the use of their product. Since they can't, it's important that they market via subjective commentary/flowery prose to avoid putting a stake in the ground that could be disproved and expose them, in a worst case scenario, to legal action for false claims.
bfreedma is offline  
post #33 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 08:24 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

I am not sure if your post is sarcastic or serious or funny. Audioquest brand is not ridiculously expensive unlike many "snake oil" brands . If I get a good deal from the store, they are fine. But I would not pay full retail for them.[/U][/B]

I paid some two hundred plus dollars for an "audioquest" NRG-3us power cord that ironically, sucked the life out of the sound quality. The point, it's up to the consumer to decide if it's a value purchase or not. I replaced the "audioquest" power cord with the manufactured supplied power cord and the life came back to the overall sound quality. That's meets the definition of an anecdotal, personal opinion.

Our mains are hooked up with $10.00/ft (1992 prices), Kimber Kable TC-8, teflon coated wires.

The point, my comments are based upon personal experience with higher end interconnects; whether power cord, speaker, headphones or interconnects. Been there, done that while looking for better quality sound. The point, what ever, placebo or real, I want it to happen and it didn't.

Disappointment. frown.gif

The point, one could say that it's perspective if a +$200.00 supply line is a good deal when compared to a $3.00 power cord. Now I'm about clean power vs, cleaned up power vs what happens in the AC/DC converter.

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #34 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 08:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzy_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackangst View Post

The whole oxy free vs not, US vs others is "one of those" arguments...similar to does an external amp sound better or is my AVR good enough types of things.
No it isn't. Oxy free has been proven to be meaningless, while an external amp can actually matter for some users (though far fewer than people here suggest).
buzzy_ is offline  
post #35 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 08:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzy_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

No one needs anything more than what is sold at Monoprice smile.gif
That's not true. Some people need other colors, or cables that look thicker or fancier, and stuff.

The fact is, there is always something better to spend your money on than cables.
buzzy_ is offline  
post #36 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 08:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzy_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I paid some two hundred plus dollars for an "audioquest" NRG-3us power cord that ironically, sucked the life out of the sound quality. The point, it's up to the consumer to decide if it's a value purchase or not.
What you're missing is that when newbies come here to ask for advice, they're not in a position to evaluate the value. The fact is, cables or wire are just not a good place to spend money if value (other than looks or convenience) is a consideration.
buzzy_ is offline  
post #37 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 08:56 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

The fact is, there is always something better to spend your money on than cables.

It's all the same, whether booze, cars, cables or the spouse of your choice. If you have more money then it costs to live, then "LIVE." Think Rosalind Russel and "Auntie Mame."

The point, in our muse to a response, it's up to us to espouse on this point as no matter how one tries to define linearity, linearity is still linearity. smile.gif

Depth of response to the question and the balance of keeping the response manageable.

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #38 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 10:38 AM
Member
 
Alec88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Those links are posted frequently because they are factual and verifiable.

So the opinions of a few engineers is now considered to be scientific fact? Usually in order for something to become a scientific fact you have to have what's called "scientific consensus". Nothing from a credible international engineering organization, just the opinions of a few engineers who obviously do not like speaker cable companies.
Alec88 is offline  
post #39 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 10:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec88 View Post

So the opinions of a few engineers is now considered to be scientific fact?
Real engineers don't make pronouncements based on opinion, they only do so based on facts proven via the scientific method, with verifiable and repeatable results. To date no cable company has ever proven their claims for their speaker cables via said methodology. If and when they do engineers will accept their claims. Until they do speaker cable company claims will remain as valid as those made for Cold Fusion, Perpetual Motion, Male Enhancement, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #40 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 10:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzy_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It's all the same, whether booze, cars, cables or the spouse of your choice. If you have more money then it costs to live, then "LIVE." Think Rosalind Russel and "Auntie Mame."
The point, in our muse to a response, it's up to us to espouse on this point as no matter how one tries to define linearity, linearity is still linearity. smile.gif
Depth of response to the question and the balance of keeping the response manageable.
-
Again, the point is - this is the wrong place to peddle that particular B.S., and anyone who tries to peddle it to newbies is way over the line.

Every dollar spent on cables (beyond decent wire and the looks you want) is a dollar that would be much, much, much, much better spent on the speakers, the screen, content, a media player, .... the list goes on forever. It never gets close to cables. There's always a much, much better place to spend money.

And time. Talking and thinking about cables is a waste of time. Placement and room are the place to have impact.
buzzy_ is offline  
post #41 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 10:54 AM
Senior Member
 
has7738's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North America
Posts: 297
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

That's not true. Some people need other colors, or cables that look thicker or fancier, and stuff.
The fact is, there is always something better to spend your money on than cables.

+1. There are times when Monoprice doesn't work for me either. Mostly has to do with massive time delay of the cable. That's the time it takes for them to ship it and me to receive it.

In all fairness, they are pretty quick, but if you need "tomorrow" the shipping cost will kill you, and you should just buy local. But that's my only issue, other than the rare instance where color matters.

But you can get black, brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, white and pink 12ga speaker wire locally, you just have to cut off the AC connectors. wink.gif
has7738 is offline  
post #42 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 10:59 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

Every dollar spent on cables (beyond decent wire and the looks you want) is a dollar that would be much, much, much, much better spent on the speakers, the screen, content, a media player, .... the list goes on forever.

If one can spend money to buy cool looking rims for their car, one can spend money to buy cool looking wires. As long as one points out that all they're buying is vanity, we're agreeing. What I find folks don't point out, is the difference between buying quality vs vanity. I like to buy both when I can.

Right now I'm on my third Snickers bar. I'm sure there are connoisseurs who will tell me my head is where the sun don't shine. biggrin.gif The point, no matter what one does, there's always going be somebody who tells them they're doing it wrong. But that don't mean what ever it is they're doing, is wrong.

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #43 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 11:31 AM
Member
 
Alec88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Real engineers don't make pronouncements based on opinion, they only do so based on facts proven via the scientific method, with verifiable and repeatable results. To date no cable company has ever proven their claims for their speaker cables via said methodology. If and when they do engineers will accept their claims. Until they do speaker cable company claims will remain as valid as those made for Cold Fusion, Perpetual Motion, Male Enhancement, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Because probably no cable company ever cared really. These guys wrote about this stuff years ago and were mostly ignored. It got nowhere and in reality has been basically a dead issue for a long time. Many people continue to use these products and are happy with their quality. To say that all these people are hearing things is very assumptive.
Alec88 is offline  
post #44 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 12:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mupi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

That's not true. Some people need other colors, or cables that look thicker or fancier, and stuff.
The fact is, there is always something better to spend your money on than cables.

ok, let me rephrase it

Anything more expensive than what is sold at Monoprice will not make any difference in the sound quality smile.gif
John Stockton likes this.
Mupi is offline  
post #45 of 60 Old 09-29-2012, 06:11 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec88 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Real engineers don't make pronouncements based on opinion, they only do so based on facts proven via the scientific method, with verifiable and repeatable results. To date no cable company has ever proven their claims for their speaker cables via said methodology. If and when they do engineers will accept their claims. Until they do speaker cable company claims will remain as valid as those made for Cold Fusion, Perpetual Motion, Male Enhancement, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Because probably no cable company ever cared really. These guys wrote about this stuff years ago and were mostly ignored. It got nowhere and in reality has been basically a dead issue for a long time. Many people continue to use these products and are happy with their quality. To say that all these people are hearing things is very assumptive.

heh... they don't do them BECAUSE they care... about what, you ask? their sales...

they don't need to do "real engineering" or "real testing" because enough people "believe" your last sentence...

there are many of us who have spent a decent (and in some cases, a VERY decent amount) on our a/v toys... all it would take is one peer reviewed study, and a cable maker would have more orders than they knew what to do with...

that study doesn't exist...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

ccotenj is offline  
post #46 of 60 Old 09-30-2012, 08:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzy_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If one can spend money to buy cool looking rims for their car, one can spend money to buy cool looking wires. As long as one points out that all they're buying is vanity, we're agreeing. What I find folks don't point out, is the difference between buying quality vs vanity. I like to buy both when I can.
Right now I'm on my third Snickers bar. I'm sure there are connoisseurs who will tell me my head is where the sun don't shine. biggrin.gif The point, no matter what one does, there's always going be somebody who tells them they're doing it wrong. But that don't mean what ever it is they're doing, is wrong.
-
You're working really hard not to get the point.

What someone does with their own money is of course their own business. When someone comes here and starts pushing cables as a place for newbies or value-conscious buyers to spend money, it is wrong.
buzzy_ is offline  
post #47 of 60 Old 09-30-2012, 09:27 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

You're working really hard not to get the point.
What someone does with their own money is of course their own business. When someone comes here and starts pushing cables as a place for newbies or value-conscious buyers to spend money, it is wrong.

Allow me to repeat myself: "If one can spend money to buy cool looking rims for their car, one can spend money to buy cool looking wires. As long as one points out that all they're buying is vanity, we're agreeing."
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #48 of 60 Old 09-30-2012, 09:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Geoff4RFC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Just down aways from Stanley
Posts: 3,699
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 1364
I knew it, I go away fo three months and come back and see an argument about speaker wire *cracking up*.

Wire is wire is wire is wire is wire

Spinning the rear tire at 150mph while at 3/4 lean angle will put wrinkles in your seat
Geoff4RFC is offline  
post #49 of 60 Old 09-30-2012, 09:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If one can spend money to buy cool looking rims for their car, one can spend money to buy cool looking wires. As long as one points out that all they're buying is vanity, we're agreeing. What I find folks don't point out, is the difference between buying quality vs vanity. I like to buy both when I can.
Right now I'm on my third Snickers bar. I'm sure there are connoisseurs who will tell me my head is where the sun don't shine. biggrin.gif The point, no matter what one does, there's always going be somebody who tells them they're doing it wrong. But that don't mean what ever it is they're doing, is wrong.
-
You're working really hard not to get the point.

What someone does with their own money is of course their own business. When someone comes here and starts pushing cables as a place for newbies or value-conscious buyers to spend money, it is wrong.

prior experience has proven that he doesn't have to work that hard to not get the point... wink.gif

amen to sentence two...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

ccotenj is offline  
post #50 of 60 Old 09-30-2012, 10:22 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Rules is rules and personal attacks are against the rules.
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #51 of 60 Old 09-30-2012, 04:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1193
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

heh... they don't do them BECAUSE they care... about what, you ask? their sales...
they don't need to do "real engineering" or "real testing" because enough people "believe" your last sentence...
there are many of us who have spent a decent (and in some cases, a VERY decent amount) on our a/v toys... all it would take is one peer reviewed study, and a cable maker would have more orders than they knew what to do with...
that study doesn't exist...
The study doesn't exist because if the only lies you tell are subjective hyperbole, like 'cleaner highs' or 'higher definition' you can get away with it. As soon as you falsify objective data you open yourself up to all sorts of legal issues. Just ask the Cold Fusion guys.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #52 of 60 Old 10-14-2012, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Jcoop73a5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey everyone- thanks a ton for the input. It looks like it won't matter too much what wire I get. I'm flabbergasted at the comments about the real difference in wire. It comes out again- marketing and psychology = gold. What's the general consensus on Emotiva stuff? A guy turned me on to their website and this XPA-5 looks awesome. Thanks again.
Jcoop73a5 is offline  
post #53 of 60 Old 10-14-2012, 08:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
jevans64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 772
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoop73a5 View Post

Hey everyone- thanks a ton for the input. It looks like it won't matter too much what wire I get. I'm flabbergasted at the comments about the real difference in wire. It comes out again- marketing and psychology = gold. What's the general consensus on Emotiva stuff? A guy turned me on to their website and this XPA-5 looks awesome. Thanks again.

I bought my first piece of Emotiva gear in September 2012. The quality is very good for the money IF you don't mind purchasing Chinese-made gear. My main motivation was that Emotiva is just 70 miles from my location, so I can just haul a 100 pound object in my car rather than shipping it if it needs work. The amp I have is probably the coolest-running piece of gear in my TV stand with the exception of the Oppo BDP-103. On paper, the Emotiva amps are rated a little noisier than stuff from Parasound, D-Sonic, Outlaw, or ATI BUT I can't tell it by listening to it. You'll pay A LOT more for those other brands. Their amps DO deliver what they are rated at and then a little bit more.

For instance. The Outlaw 7500 is rated at 200 watts x 5 at 0.03% THD while the Emotiva XPA-5 is rated at the same 200 watts / channel at 0.1% THD. The Outlaw costs $1600 but the Emotiva is $900 and, more often, $800 if you can hit one of their sales. Outlaw amps are made by ATI in California so the specs are roughly the same. Stuff from Parasound or D-Sonic will cost even more.

HD-DVD = 94
Blu-Ray = 120 ( 24 Warner red2blu )
jevans64 is offline  
post #54 of 60 Old 10-15-2012, 04:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 71
I second the rec on Emotiva.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is offline  
post #55 of 60 Old 10-15-2012, 06:18 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

The Outlaw 7500 is rated at 200 watts x 5 at 0.03% THD while the Emotiva XPA-5 is rated at the same 200 watts / channel at 0.1% THD. The Outlaw costs $1600 but the Emotiva is $900 and, more often, $800 if you can hit one of their sales.

You above triggered a thought; how much distortion can we hear? (Yes, for others, I understand this is a well discussed subject matter.) The point, is the improvement in lower distortion, a sonic benefit. Here's a snapshot of what I found:

(See "Conclusion.")

" For detecting distortion at levels of less than 10%, the test frequencies had to be greater than 500 Hz. At 40 Hz, listeners accepted 100% distortion before they complained. The noise test tones had to reach 8,000 Hz and above before 1% distortion became audible, such is the masking effect of music."

From online tests I've taken, with headphones on, one can easily hear 1% THD at 2kHz.

If I'm going in the wrong direction, maybe somebody can point me in the right direction regarding distortion figures and the price of admission.

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #56 of 60 Old 10-15-2012, 08:26 AM
Senior Member
 
has7738's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North America
Posts: 297
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You above triggered a thought; how much distortion can we hear? (Yes, for others, I understand this is a well discussed subject matter.) The point, is the improvement in lower distortion, a sonic benefit. Here's a snapshot of what I found:
(See "Conclusion.")
" For detecting distortion at levels of less than 10%, the test frequencies had to be greater than 500 Hz. At 40 Hz, listeners accepted 100% distortion before they complained. The noise test tones had to reach 8,000 Hz and above before 1% distortion became audible, such is the masking effect of music."

I haven't had time to completely digest the paper, but I question the method of injecting a single pure tone at a fixed level to simulate the rather general parameter of THD. In reality, there are many things that comprise a single THD figure. Past research (sorry, I'll have to find paper later, think it was an AES) showed that the specific harmonic content made a huge difference in the threshold of detection. For example, even-order harmonic distortion is far less audible than odd-order, and specific harmonic frequency distribution also has a very significant effect. The tests in the cited paper included tones that were not harmonically related at all, and did not follow the envelope of the music either. That was more of a study of masking than audibility of THD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

From online tests I've taken, with headphones on, one can easily hear 1% THD at 2kHz.
If I'm going in the wrong direction, maybe somebody can point me in the right direction regarding distortion figures and the price of admission.
-

Interesting, but again, not exactly the controlled test you'd want to form a good hypothesis. We'd need to analyze the harmonic content of the signal presented at your ear including the hardware and transducer to know what you're actually hearing. Funny, at low volumes on my laptop speakers I'm hearing some 3rd harmonic, but the test is supposed to be 2nd only. But I'm quite sure this has all been done decades before, and the masking research is of course well documented.
has7738 is offline  
post #57 of 60 Old 10-15-2012, 09:10 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
What would you consider normal sensitivity to first order THD distortion is?

(I'm using decent headphones and high end sound card.)

My hearing is excellent in the lower bass frequencies, down to about 10Hz and I have what I consider to be, normal old man (60yrs) hearing, up to 14kHz. I have a big hole of about 10-20dB, around 7kHz but before and after, everything tests out normal or flat with my hearing kicking in at about 20-30dB.

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
post #58 of 60 Old 10-15-2012, 09:49 AM
Senior Member
 
has7738's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North America
Posts: 297
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

What would you consider normal sensitivity to first order THD distortion is?
-
It can't be stated as a single THD figure. THD is traditionally measured by including anything that is not the fundamental of the test signal. But the audibility of distortion depends on the specific harmonic distribution, that means the amplitude and frequency of the harmonics, and how they are all mixed. For example, there are conditions where a measured 1% is clearly audible, and other conditions where 10% is barely audible.

But look, don't obsess. Any amplifier in today's world that operates in its linear region has inaudible distortion. It's only when they get into the non-linear region that things get tricky. An amp that clips hard sound very different at the onset of clipping than an amp that clips more gently. It's a very interesting study, but not as important as operating things in the linear region.

There are other kinds of distortion too, like IMD for example, that can be highly audible and low levels, but again is dependent on what specific conditions cause it. TIM has for the most part left us in practical terms because technology has moved on, though I might get busted for that statement. The world is full of different kinds of distortions in audio, but none of them can be said to be audible at a certain threshold without much more about the conditions being stated as well.
has7738 is offline  
post #59 of 60 Old 10-15-2012, 09:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1193
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You above triggered a thought; how much distortion can we hear?
A lot less than is commonly assumed. For one thing 'distortion' implies something that inherently sounds bad, and it doesn't. Harmonic distortion is the presence of harmonics in the playback not present in the original signal, and that actually can be pleasing. Speakers that run at 10% THD are the norm rather than the exception. 1% distortion from electronics is inaudible, so trying to get .01% isn't worth going to great lengths to achieve. Most electronics do have very low THD because it's not at all difficult to realize.
Quote:
From online tests I've taken, with headphones on, one can easily hear 1% THD at 2kHz.
That would be an issue if your idea of music is listening to a 2kHz sine wave, but otherwise not so much.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #60 of 60 Old 10-15-2012, 12:42 PM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Thanks!

One can read up on the subject but unfortunately, it seems this subject is about as clear as mud.
BeeMan458 is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off