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post #931 of 960 Old 09-08-2014, 04:28 PM
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As a purchaser of Ascend Sierra 1's (LCR for HT duty & Danley DTS-10 sub) a few years ago in addition to a frequent lurker here who of course could not ignore the massive KEF thread I am supremely intrigued by these as Ascend offers an upgrade path to their RAAL Ribbon tweeter (i.e., "best in the world" and making the sierra 1's into 2's-$1500 a pair). I always figured the ID guys such as Ascend, etc. were essentially unmatched but of course these appear to be relatively unmatched per this price range. What's the consensus on using these for HT duty in addition on how they would compare to the RAAL or any other ribbon tweeter? Thanks so much.

EDIT: So intriguing seeing the incredibly wide range of driver technologies, etc. used for home theater. After visiting the JTR thread and reading about Danley Synergy Horns (and being convinced compressed drivers are the way to go for HT-or our common double musical duties) which appear to be a high benchmark for HT, I see little gems like this.

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post #932 of 960 Old 09-08-2014, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JW6 View Post
As a purchaser of Ascend Sierra 1's (LCR for HT duty & Danley DTS-10 sub) a few years ago in addition to a frequent lurker here who of course could not ignore the massive KEF thread I am supremely intrigued by these as Ascend offers an upgrade path to their RAAL Ribbon tweeter (i.e., "best in the world" and making the sierra 1's into 2's-$1500 a pair). I always figured the ID guys such as Ascend, etc. were essentially unmatched but of course these appear to be relatively unmatched per this price range. What's the consensus on using these for HT duty in addition on how they would compare to the RAAL or any other ribbon tweeter? Thanks so much.

EDIT: So intriguing seeing the incredibly wide range of driver technologies, etc. used for home theater. After visiting the JTR thread and reading about Danley Synergy Horns (and being convinced compressed drivers are the way to go for HT-or our common double musical duties) which appear to be a high benchmark for HT, I see little gems like this.

I have heard both and KEF LS50S are more balanced, bigger soundstage and more transparent. Bass might be even.
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post #933 of 960 Old 09-09-2014, 09:15 PM
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For those interested, the National Research Council of Canada has carried out independent measurements of the KEF LS50 and have posted the results here: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/ind...=77&Itemid=153

The off axis measurements are extremely impressive and is almost flat +/- 30 deg. There are not many speakers at this price point that can do this. The linearity is excellent.

Note the roll off starting at 100Hz. The F3 (-3dB) point is around 80Hz and this is in line with KEF's specs. Of concern is the distortion levels as it will go up dramatically from just less than 200Hz. Hence the need to pass the low frequencies across to another transducer called the sub which is better designed to handle these lower frequencies. If there is a good reason for getting a sub with the LS50, this would be it. If the LS50 + sub is well integrated and depending on the noise floor of the listening room, it may not even be audible.

Edit: The changes in the phase angles are only a problem once the frequency drop to around 100Hz and below. It should be relatively easy to drive for most amps. Again the sudden change in the phase occurs around 100Hz and this is where integration with the sub is important.

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Last edited by steveting99; 09-09-2014 at 11:43 PM. Reason: include comments for phase angle
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post #934 of 960 Old 09-09-2014, 11:05 PM
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If so I think LS50's are bit weedy on bass department as that means they're a sub/sat system, more or less. I have some speakers that roll off around that - side surrounds and bookshelf, for music need lower bass response. Think they should have another version like Kef R300 but with sealed lower bass driver. Means you need a good subwoofer.

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post #935 of 960 Old 09-10-2014, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
For those interested, the National Research Council of Canada has carried out independent measurements of the KEF LS50 and have posted the results here: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/ind...=77&Itemid=153

The off axis measurements are extremely impressive and is almost flat +/- 30 deg. There are not many speakers at this price point that can do this. The linearity is excellent.

Note the roll off starting at 100Hz. The F3 (-3dB) point is around 80Hz and this is in line with KEF's specs. Of concern is the distortion levels as it will go up dramatically from just less than 200Hz. Hence the need to pass the low frequencies across to another transducer called the sub which is better designed to handle these lower frequencies. If there is a good reason for getting a sub with the LS50, this would be it. If the LS50 + sub is well integrated and depending on the noise floor of the listening room, it may not even be audible. Edit: The changes in the phase angles are only a problem once the frequency drop to around 100Hz and below. It should be relatively easy to drive for most amps. Again the sudden change in the phase occurs around 100Hz and this is where integration with the sub is important.
Thank you so crossed over at 80Hz is ideal or 100Hz?

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post #936 of 960 Old 09-10-2014, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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What does it mean all these measurements?

NRC Measurements: KEF LS50 Loudspeakers

  • 15 Apr 2013 12:00
  • Written by Administrator
All loudspeaker measurements are performed independently at the National Research Council of Canada. All measurement data and graphical information displayed below are the property of the SoundStage! Network and Schneider Publishing Inc. Reproduction in any format is not permitted.
Setup

Microphone measuring position: tweeter axis
Grille: n/a
Frequency response and sensitivity

Sensitivity: 84.25dB (averaged 300Hz-3kHz, 2.83V/1m)
Chart A: 20Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m, plotted @ 1m)

Top curve: on-axis response
Middle curve: 15 degrees off-axis response
Bottom curve: 30 degrees off-axis response
Chart B: 20Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m, plotted @ 1m)

Top curve: 45 degrees off-axis response
Middle curve: 60 degrees off-axis response
Bottom curve: 75 degrees off-axis response
Listening window

20Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m, plotted @ 1m)

Response curve is an average of five measurements: on-axis, 15 degrees left and right off-axis, 15 degrees up and down off-axis
Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise

Chart A: @ 90dB, 50Hz - 10kHz (measured @ 2m)

Top curve: frequency response @ 90dB SPL
Bottom curve: THD+N @ 90dB (50Hz - 10kHz)
Deviation from linearity

Chart A: Difference @ 90dB from 70dB, 50Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m)

Impedance magnitude variation


Vertical axis: impedance
Horizontal axis: frequency
Electrical phase


Vertical axis: phase
Horizontal axis: frequency

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post #937 of 960 Old 09-10-2014, 02:12 PM
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84dB- needs a amp with quite a bit of power
Also 4 ohm on average? So needs a amp with lots of current.

Also I'd cross over at 100hz by the look of it.

If do like the Kef Q coaxials (had Q and got Reference) but like Kef RDM 1 (actually LS50 look like a update on RDM1) a subwoofer is essential.

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post #938 of 960 Old 09-10-2014, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
84dB- needs a amp with quite a bit of power
Also 4 ohm on average? So needs a amp with lots of current.

Also I'd cross over at 100hz by the look of it...
The sensitivity of 84dB/W/m means that if one sits 1 meter away from a single LS50 and 1 watt of power is sent to the speaker, then it would produce 84dB of sound pressure level (SPL) in an anechoic chamber. In a regular home, there would be at least two speakers with room boundaries adding to the overall SPL. So it depends how far away one sits from the LS50 and it's not just about power. A 3dB increase in SPL needs about 2x the power.

The minimum impedance is around 3 ohms at about 200 Hz. The nominal impedance over the entire frequency range is 8 ohms.

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Last edited by steveting99; 09-10-2014 at 06:19 PM. Reason: additional text added for clarity
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post #939 of 960 Old 09-10-2014, 06:23 PM
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Thank you so crossed over at 80Hz is ideal or 100Hz?
wse,

Based on the spec rating and graphs I'd start at 90Hz then move up the crossover to 120Hz. Have a listen to some favorite tunes and notice which sounds best. A lot depends on the room, where the sub is placed, the location of the speakers and where you sit. Some are sensitive to localization of the sub so a lower crossover is desirable. The minimum crossover for the LS50 I would set is 80Hz.

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post #940 of 960 Old 09-11-2014, 05:00 AM
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If so I think LS50's are bit weedy on bass department as that means they're a sub/sat system, more or less...
Yes, that's how I look at mine. In a room where a full range speaker would be too big, a high performance sat/sub system can give the same results. So they have their place.


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post #941 of 960 Old 09-11-2014, 05:04 AM
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That looks ridiculous.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #942 of 960 Old 09-11-2014, 05:18 AM
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Ah, but it sounds great.
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post #943 of 960 Old 09-11-2014, 08:25 AM
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what stands are good for these speakers? any recommendations?
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post #944 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 02:35 AM
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Curious how many of you are using the LS50 as a near field system? How would you rate the imaging and the overall experience as a near field monitor and have you compared it to other monitors which were designed for that purpose (Adam, Yamaha, etc)

The reason for my question, As a Kef dealer I am asked about the LS50 as a near field monitor. Although it's heritage (the LS3) was a near field monitor, I couldn't comment on the LS50 under the same conditions. I plan to setup a demo room with the LS50 in a desktop/near field arrangement as it seems to be very popular.

Would love feedback from current owners.

Tony
I lived with a pair of well known NFMs prior to the KEFs. They were Dynaudio BM5AmkII and were placed in nearly the same spots as the KEFs, 40" from sidewall to tweeter, 36" from back wall to tweeter and on stands roughly 30" high. They were toed-in so that I was listening pretty much on-axis and I was seated 5' from the plane of the speakers.

The one advantage the Dyns had over the KEFs is that the Dyns went lower. My room is treated to deal with bass modes since it's small and my -3dB point was in the mid-40s with them vs 70Hz with the LS50. So I never felt the need for a sub as I did with the LS50. They might have played louder as well but I never push my speakers that far as I value my hearing.

The KEFs beat them in this near field configuration in every other aspect, especially soundstage and imaging. The Dyns just can't compete with the point source configuration of the Uni-Q. These are the first speaker of mine that truly disappear.

I've had great success integrating dual 8" subs to get my 3dB point down to mid-30s as well.

Bill
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post #945 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 11:20 AM
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Yes, that's how I look at mine. In a room where a full range speaker would be too big, a high performance sat/sub system can give the same results. So they have their place.

I spied cable risers! Do they actually help the sound in any way? I thought they were some voodoo magic or placebo gimmick
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post #946 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 02:05 PM
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I spied cable risers! Do they actually help the sound in any way? I thought they were some voodoo magic or placebo gimmick
LOL, no the risers and all the oak cutting boards underneath everything are there actually to make the stuff "vacuum cleaner resistant". Not really into the voodoo, running Blue Jean interconnects and Canare 4S11 speaker cables. Source is music on a harddrive, played by a Squeezebox. Nothin fancy.

And yes the room treatment may not be everyone's cup of tea, this is the only room in the house here where they are allowed . But they are fun to play around with and do make a difference.
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post #947 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL, no the risers and all the oak cutting boards underneath everything are there actually to make the stuff "vacuum cleaner resistant". Not really into the voodoo, running Blue Jean interconnects and Canare 4S11 speaker cables. Source is music on a harddrive, played by a Squeezebox. Nothin fancy.

And yes the room treatment may not be everyone's cup of tea, this is the only room in the house here where they are allowed . But they are fun to play around with and do make a difference.
Good for you what cross over do you use?

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post #948 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
84dB- needs a amp with quite a bit of power Also 4 ohm on average? So needs a amp with lots of current. Also I'd cross over at 100hz by the look of it. If do like the Kef Q coaxials (had Q and got Reference) but like Kef RDM 1 (actually LS50 look like a update on RDM1) a subwoofer is essential.
100HZ I thought over 80 Hz one could localize the sub!!

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post #949 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 08:51 PM
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That looks ridiculous.
Ridiculously gorgeous.

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post #950 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 08:53 PM
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100HZ I thought over 80 Hz one could localize the sub!!
Cross them @ 90Hz. ...And then @ 80Hz. ...Keep the one that sounds best to you.

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post #951 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 09:29 PM
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The measurements are not great for the KEF LS50. The Ascend 170SE. which go for 200.00 a pair have better measurements.

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post #952 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 09:47 PM
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The measurements are not great for the KEF LS50. The Ascend 170SE. which go for 200.00 a pair have better measurements.
Maybe if you look at the axial measurements only. Note how the KEF has a smooth off-axis frequency response that matches the on-axis response closely. The Ascends, on the other hand, are rather poor performers off-axis, with a sharp inflection point at the crossover frequency.

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post #953 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 09:48 PM
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The measurements are not great for the KEF LS50. The Ascend 170SE. which go for 200.00 a pair have better measurements.
Link, with their measurements?

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post #954 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 10:01 PM
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Link, with their measurements?
Check out the link steveting99 posted, soundstage. Its done in aneric chamber. It has measurements of more speakers there. The Giya and the Magico seems to measure well. I thought the Magicos were just extremely priced, but I guess they do sound good after all.

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post #955 of 960 Old 09-12-2014, 11:10 PM
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Anechoic.

* Magico measures best; magnificent!

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post #956 of 960 Old 09-13-2014, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
Good for you what cross over do you use?
At the present, I run the LS50s full range, but with the ports plugs. The subs you see are used for midbass, I also have 4 AE IB15s (in two IB manifolds) in the ceiling for the ULFs.

I use an analog DBX 223xs crossover, fed by a Dodds preamp, to divide the four subs up, high and low (at 50 hz.), and then use the built-in low pass filter in the Yamaha amp used for the mid bass units to roll off at 90hz. I keep all the sub amps in the LH closet shown in the pic above, one channel for each driver.

The signal from the Dodds unit that is fed to the Kefs are not in that circuit, just straight to the Kef's power amp.



Still subject to further tweaking, haven't taken any serious measurements since setting this up. I mess with the system more in the winter, so will eventually get to it. Would really want to high pass the KEFs. So that will be one of the next upgrades I'm looking forward to, although undecided at present on how to go about it.

Last edited by jkhome; 09-13-2014 at 04:10 AM.
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post #957 of 960 Old 09-13-2014, 04:59 AM
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although undecided at present on how to go about it.
I could do with with subwoofer with high pass or Paradigm X series. I would like to high pass my Celestion A1 standmounts in the hifi, but I heard it introduces phase issues, also need adjustable high pass, and adjustable slope.

If bought another SB Ultra 13 in the hifi, can do it that way, but that's alot of money..

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post #958 of 960 Old 09-13-2014, 06:38 PM
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Anyone tried putting subwoofer on top of the LS50? I'll be trying it within a week or two.
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post #959 of 960 Old 09-13-2014, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone tried putting subwoofer on top of the LS50? I'll be trying it within a week or two.
. You are going to crush them!

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post #960 of 960 Old 09-13-2014, 08:21 PM
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Anyone tried putting subwoofer on top of the LS50? I'll be trying it within a week or two.
Sounds like wise axe plan.

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