KEF LS50 Owners - Page 38 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 15Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1111 of 1139 Old 12-14-2014, 06:01 PM
Newbie
 
tb151's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by AUDIOgiant View Post
Congrats an welcome to the club! I felt the same when i got mine set up for the first time. Are the ones they sell still branded 50th anniversary?


PSN: dagreeng

I just played Pink Floyd "Learning to Fly" from their Pulse Album and coupled with my HSU sub, I was completely in awe. I was trying them out with Tidal (ww.tidalhifi.com) and was extremely impressed.

I don't believe they say Anniversary Edition on them anywhere, unless its very inconspicuous?
tb151 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1112 of 1139 Old 12-15-2014, 12:22 PM
Senior Member
 
AUDIOgiant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 261
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Liked: 34
I was just curious about the 50th anniversary branding. They are still the same speaker but I think someone mentioned they stopped adding that phrase after the anniversary year ended.


PSN: dagreeng
AUDIOgiant is offline  
post #1113 of 1139 Old 12-15-2014, 02:08 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Hey guys,
I've blown through this entire thread and I think I'm left more confused about what way to go as far as amplification on the LS50! Here's some details:

- 50% Music, 50% HT
- Buying a house and dedicating a listening/theatre room (have not found a house yet)
- Going with the LS50 as they continue to be my favorite speaker that I've auditioned in my price range (assuming I don't end up with a giant listening room)
- Will be using a subwoofer (size/brand TBD based on eventual room size)
- Budget: ~$1000 (for the time being)

I've had people recommend amps/receivers from 50WPC-250WPC. I've had people tell me that I need an external amp and not just the amp section of an AVR. Tubes? SS? Class D, or A/B, or A? SO many questions!

I'm thinking of going with a cheap AVR for the moment (ie Denon X1100 for eventual surround sound) then adding a decent 2 channel amp. What do you guys think? Any advice would be awesome at this point. I'm just looking to be pointed in the right direction then do some more research based on my needs/budget.
TooPoor is online now  
post #1114 of 1139 Old 12-15-2014, 02:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kini62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 3,447
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 375 Post(s)
Liked: 455
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPoor View Post
Hey guys,
I've blown through this entire thread and I think I'm left more confused about what way to go as far as amplification on the LS50! Here's some details:

- 50% Music, 50% HT
- Buying a house and dedicating a listening/theatre room (have not found a house yet)
- Going with the LS50 as they continue to be my favorite speaker that I've auditioned in my price range (assuming I don't end up with a giant listening room)
- Will be using a subwoofer (size/brand TBD based on eventual room size)
- Budget: ~$1000 (for the time being)

I've had people recommend amps/receivers from 50WPC-250WPC. I've had people tell me that I need an external amp and not just the amp section of an AVR. Tubes? SS? Class D, or A/B, or A? SO many questions!

I'm thinking of going with a cheap AVR for the moment (ie Denon X1100 for eventual surround sound) then adding a decent 2 channel amp. What do you guys think? Any advice would be awesome at this point. I'm just looking to be pointed in the right direction then do some more research based on my needs/budget.
Don't think the X1100 has any preouts to be able to add an amp. Plus if you're planning on using the LS50s for HT you'll need 3 since there is no LS series center, so in that case you might want to add at least 3 channels of external amplification if you're going that route.

Grab a X4000 now while still available. They're selling new for around $800.

Klipsch RF-62II, RC-500, RS-400, SVS PC12+,
Def Tech SC8000
Harman Kardon AVR 1600
PS3, Apple TV, Sharp 70" Qattron
Kini62 is online now  
post #1115 of 1139 Old 12-15-2014, 03:50 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Good stuff! I can't believe I didn't notice that about the 1100... 4000 does look like a good option.
TooPoor is online now  
post #1116 of 1139 Old 12-15-2014, 06:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
steveting99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,054
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPoor View Post
Good stuff! I can't believe I didn't notice that about the 1100... 4000 does look like a good option.
The Denon AVR-X4000 has the improved version of Audyssey room equalization called XT32 which will provide a significant sound improvement over the lower versions. This alone is worth the up-grade price.

The power output of the X4000 in 2-channel stereo mode is 125W per channel at 0.08% THD into 8 ohms. The KEF LS50 has a maximum continuous rating of 100W into a nominal impedance of 8 ohms - so from a power output stand point, the X4000 and LS50 will work together.

Speaker power requirements are exponential. How loud you want to play the LS50 is very dependent on your room dimensions, where the speakers are placed in the room and where you sit (i.e. the distance between you and the speakers). How loud you play also determines speaker power requirements. Most people will perceive a change in Sound Pressure Level (SPL) of 3dB. This 3dB change will require 2x more power than before.

To play 2x as loud requires a 10dB change in SPL. A 10dB increase in SPL increases the power demand by a factor of 100x.

Maranatz SR-7009(on order), Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G
steveting99 is offline  
post #1117 of 1139 Old 12-16-2014, 12:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tractng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 26
The white LS50 looks gorgeous. Thinking how I can squeeze a pair in the living room .
tractng is offline  
post #1118 of 1139 Old 12-17-2014, 08:05 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 0
What're you guys using for subs? I'm looking at the SVS PC2000x2 (or PC12+). Just am curious what everyone has/prefers with their LS50s.
TooPoor is online now  
post #1119 of 1139 Old 12-17-2014, 10:22 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Hi, is anyone else (shamefully) putting these in a cabinet? I'd like to create a 3.2 system with 3 ls50s but they must go in cavities in the media center. I'm hoping with the foam plugs in and two woofers in the room it will work ok?
BrianLikesMusic is offline  
post #1120 of 1139 Old 12-18-2014, 09:22 AM
Member
 
poolshark920's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Willow Grove, PA
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPoor View Post
What're you guys using for subs? I'm looking at the SVS PC2000x2 (or PC12+). Just am curious what everyone has/prefers with their LS50s.
SVS SB-13 Ultra crossed over 63 Hz with speakers running full range. Sounds amazing!
poolshark920 is offline  
post #1121 of 1139 Old 12-18-2014, 12:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 802
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianLikesMusic View Post
Hi, is anyone else (shamefully) putting these in a cabinet? I'd like to create a 3.2 system with 3 ls50s but they must go in cavities in the media center. I'm hoping with the foam plugs in and two woofers in the room it will work ok?

If you're putting the speakers in cubby holes in a cabinet, I would not spend the money on LS50's. Seems like a waste. Instead, I would use three Q100's--an excellent speaker. Put foam in the ports, like you said, and if you can, stuff acoustic foam or poly fill or some sort of sound dampening material in the remaining space inside the cubby. Then I would run Audyssey.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
dftkell is offline  
post #1122 of 1139 Old 12-18-2014, 12:59 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 0
I don't mind investing in ls50, unless it would actually sound _worse_ in a cavity with plugged rear port than Q100/Q300?

Because kids will grow up, or we'll move, or or.... and I'll eventually get to put them on stands.

(btw you'd recommend q100 over q300? q300 on sale at kefdirect right now for less than q100)
BrianLikesMusic is offline  
post #1123 of 1139 Old 12-23-2014, 07:29 AM
Senior Member
 
coli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianLikesMusic View Post
I don't mind investing in ls50, unless it would actually sound _worse_ in a cavity with plugged rear port than Q100/Q300?

Because kids will grow up, or we'll move, or or.... and I'll eventually get to put them on stands.

(btw you'd recommend q100 over q300? q300 on sale at kefdirect right now for less than q100)
The LS50 lacks dynamics, if you plug the port it will be even worse. Ported speakers are not meant to be plugged in general.
coli is offline  
post #1124 of 1139 Old 12-23-2014, 08:20 AM
Senior Member
 
nirvy111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by poolshark920 View Post
SVS SB-13 Ultra crossed over 63 Hz with speakers running full range. Sounds amazing!

I got 7 kef ls50's recently purchased second hand and are about to get the svs sb-13 ultra, upgrading from the pb2000. I watched the new Planet of the Apes movie last night with the ls50's in full flight 7.1 running off my denon x4000 and man it sounded good, these speakers really lap up great recordings. I actually watched the same movie a few weeks ago in my setup with the denon x4100(which I returned) using my older monitor audio bronze speakers running 7.1.2 DSU and it did sound good but the kef's in 7.1 beats it easily. It actually sounded more immersive and way more realistic. It goes to show the importance of having good speakers rather than more speakers.

Last edited by nirvy111; 12-23-2014 at 08:24 AM.
nirvy111 is offline  
post #1125 of 1139 Old 12-23-2014, 11:19 AM
Advanced Member
 
dftkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 802
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianLikesMusic View Post
I don't mind investing in ls50, unless it would actually sound _worse_ in a cavity with plugged rear port than Q100/Q300?

Because kids will grow up, or we'll move, or or.... and I'll eventually get to put them on stands.

(btw you'd recommend q100 over q300? q300 on sale at kefdirect right now for less than q100)
I suspect the LS50 wouldn't sound worse in a cavity--although the rear port is not as optimal for placing into a cubby as a front port.

More to the point though, the LS50's and either the Q100's or Q300's will be very compromised with that placement. So you reach the point of diminishing returns very quickly. I personally wouldn't spend 2K on speakers, stuff them in a cubby, and know that I'm not getting close to the best sound out of them. I'd rather save $1,000 and use the Q's. I could live with that compromise much easier. And I highly doubt the LS50's would sound twice as good as the Q's in your cabinet. You can use that extra $1,000 if you move, kids grow up, whatever and then upgrade to better speakers. And then put the Q's in the rear.

And don't get me wrong, I get it, sometimes you gotta put the speakers where you gotta put the speakers. So I'm not trying to be critical of that.

Last edited by dftkell; 12-23-2014 at 11:22 AM.
dftkell is offline  
post #1126 of 1139 Old 12-23-2014, 05:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
steveting99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,054
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
I got 7 kef ls50's recently purchased second hand and are about to get the svs sb-13 ultra, upgrading from the pb2000. I watched the new Planet of the Apes movie last night with the ls50's in full flight 7.1 running off my denon x4000 and man it sounded good, these speakers really lap up great recordings. I actually watched the same movie a few weeks ago in my setup with the denon x4100(which I returned) using my older monitor audio bronze speakers running 7.1.2 DSU and it did sound good but the kef's in 7.1 beats it easily. It actually sounded more immersive and way more realistic. It goes to show the importance of having good speakers rather than more speakers.
nirvy111,

Over in the Yamaha A-XX40 series thread, you mentioned in a post that the Yamaha receiver sounded bright compared to the Denon X4000 using the LS50 as the speakers. Prior to this, you'd mentioned in another post that the LS50 was causing listening fatigue. Would like to know more about this as another LS50 owner reported similar issues.

Appreciate clarification on your room, speaker layout and listening levels to help identify the cause of the listening fatigue. In particular;
(a) The room dimensions (front to back, side to side and floor to ceiling lengths);
(b) Where the Main Listening Position (MLP) is relative to the LS50 speakers in the room;
(c) How close the LS50 are to the room walls (boundaries)?;
(d) Do you use a sub to help with reproducing the lower octaves that the LS50 struggle with? If so, what crossover frequency do you use?
(e) What mode do you normally engage when listening with music? I.e. stereo? (2.1); direct?(2.0); mutli-channel up-mix?(5.1/7.1); use room equalization(Audyssey/YPAO)?; etc.
(f) What is the noise floor of your listening room in dB?
(g) What is your normal listening level at in dB?
(h) Are there any room treatments?

Thanks.

Maranatz SR-7009(on order), Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G
steveting99 is offline  
post #1127 of 1139 Old 12-23-2014, 08:05 PM
Senior Member
 
nirvy111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
nirvy111,

Over in the Yamaha A-XX40 series thread, you mentioned in a post that the Yamaha receiver sounded bright compared to the Denon X4000 using the LS50 as the speakers. Prior to this, you'd mentioned in another post that the LS50 was causing listening fatigue. Would like to know more about this as another LS50 owner reported similar issues.

Appreciate clarification on your room, speaker layout and listening levels to help identify the cause of the listening fatigue. In particular;
(a) The room dimensions (front to back, side to side and floor to ceiling lengths);
(b) Where the Main Listening Position (MLP) is relative to the LS50 speakers in the room;
(c) How close the LS50 are to the room walls (boundaries)?;
(d) Do you use a sub to help with reproducing the lower octaves that the LS50 struggle with? If so, what crossover frequency do you use?
(e) What mode do you normally engage when listening with music? I.e. stereo? (2.1); direct?(2.0); mutli-channel up-mix?(5.1/7.1); use room equalization(Audyssey/YPAO)?; etc.
(f) What is the noise floor of your listening room in dB?
(g) What is your normal listening level at in dB?
(h) Are there any room treatments?

Thanks.

a) 17 feet long 14 feet wide 8 feet high
(b) 1 foot off the back wall
(c) my surrounds and back speakers are at ear level space around the couch, pretty close, about 6-8 feet from my head
(d) pb2000 subwoofer at 80hz, speakers at 80hz
(e) I use audyssey with Dyn Eq On with the Denon x4000 in straight 7.1. The Dyn Eq does boost the surrounds so that might be a factor.
(f) What is the noise floor of your listening room in dB? very quiet
(g) What is your normal listening level at in dB? No idea, I play it loud but I doubt it's close to reference
(h) I have a dedicated room fully enclosed, I don't have any pro acoustic treatments but the walls are all covered in fabric and heavy carpet on the floor. The ceiling is mostly bare plaster. It's a pretty dead room.


So as I mentioned in another thread I do get some mild listening fatigue with the ls50's when I play them loud for extended periods. It's not that bad but it's something I didn't experience with my previous speakers. The ls50's do have a crisper more detailed top end and I'm pretty sure they go higher in frequency than speakers I've used before. You can see by my setup that it's far from ideal. I think the biggest problem is having my surrounds and backs so close to my head and at ear level, so I'm looking at re positioning them, which I'm working on now. I might have to mount them on the wall close to the ceiling so they are firing over my head and have a bit more space to breath.

As far as receivers go, I bought the Yamaha 3040 thinking it might be warmer than the Denon x4000 and help with the fatigue but that wasn't the case and I simply disliked the way the 3040 sounded anyway. So it's back to the x4000 and hopefully I can improve the fatigue problem with a better speaker configuration and possibly with better room treatment.

Last edited by nirvy111; 12-23-2014 at 09:15 PM.
nirvy111 is offline  
post #1128 of 1139 Old 12-23-2014, 09:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
steveting99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,054
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
a) 17 feet long 14 feet wide 8 feet high
Are the LS50 against the long wall or shorter wall? How far from the wall is the LS50? How far away are the front left, center and front right speakers from the MLP? If you ran the Audyssey setup, it would have determined your speaker distances and levels. This would answer the question of speaker distance to the MLP.

Would appreciate a sketch of where the MLP, speakers and sub are relative to the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
(b) 1 foot off the back wall
(e) I use audyssey with Dyn Eq On with the Denon x4000 in straight 7.1. The Dyn Eq does boost the surrounds so that might be a factor.
This is probably the reason why you're getting some listening fatigue. Bass is strongest near the wall (room boundaries) and you'll find up to +10dB higher SPL for the low frequencies compared to the average listening level - depending on where you sit. Some people like strong bass, but for others it will become fatiguing over time.

Enabling DEQ at below reference means the target curve is being modified - in particular for the bass such that some form of compensation is being applied by Audyssey for listening at lower volume levels. Try enabling Reference Level Offset and select either 5, 10 or 15 values to tame the bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
(c) my surrounds and back speakers are at ear level space around the couch, pretty close, about 6-8 feet from my head
(d) pb2000 subwoofer at 80hz, speakers at 80hz
Did the setup determine the crossover at 80Hz and is this set for all LS50 speakers? The level trims would how much is needed to achieve reference level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
(f) What is the noise floor of your listening room in dB? very quiet
(g) What is your normal listening level at in dB? No idea, I play it loud but I doubt it's close to reference
(h) I have a dedicated room fully enclosed, I don't have any pro acoustic treatments but the walls are all covered in fabric and heavy carpet on the floor. The ceiling is mostly bare plaster. It's a pretty dead room.
If you have a handheld SPL meter, you can measure (f) with everything turned off. Play broadband pink noise to measure (g). AIX/Spears&Munsil calibration discs have these.

Maranatz SR-7009(on order), Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G

Last edited by steveting99; 12-23-2014 at 09:54 PM. Reason: typo and additional text for clarification
steveting99 is offline  
post #1129 of 1139 Old 12-23-2014, 11:17 PM
Senior Member
 
nirvy111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Are the LS50 against the long wall or shorter wall? How far from the wall is the LS50? How far away are the front left, center and front right speakers from the MLP? If you ran the Audyssey setup, it would have determined your speaker distances and levels. This would answer the question of speaker distance to the MLP.

Would appreciate a sketch of where the MLP, speakers and sub are relative to the room.



This is probably the reason why you're getting some listening fatigue. Bass is strongest near the wall (room boundaries) and you'll find up to +10dB higher SPL for the low frequencies compared to the average listening level - depending on where you sit. Some people like strong bass, but for others it will become fatiguing over time.

Enabling DEQ at below reference means the target curve is being modified - in particular for the bass such that some form of compensation is being applied by Audyssey for listening at lower volume levels. Try enabling Reference Level Offset and select either 5, 10 or 15 values to tame the bass.



Did the setup determine the crossover at 80Hz and is this set for all LS50 speakers? The level trims would how much is needed to achieve reference level.



If you have a handheld SPL meter, you can measure (f) with everything turned off. Play broadband pink noise to measure (g). AIX/Spears&Munsil calibration discs have these.









Sketch is a little wonky but it's a good approximation of my setup. Front speakers about a foot off the side walls but about 3 feet from the screen wall, surround speakers about the same and back speakers about half a foot off the back wall and at either corner of the couch, they're pretty close as you can see in the diagram.


I do get increased bass with the couch close to the back wall but like I said I didn't experience any fatigue with this configuration until I got the kef ls50's, so the speakers are partly to blame but maybe a different configuration might fix the problem. I'm very restricted for room space because my screen is 160" and I can't move the seating any closer.


Using dyn eq could be adding to the problem I suspect, but again I didn't have fatigue issues before owning the kef's.
I think the audyssey on the denon x4000 sets the speakers to 60 hz I think but I switched it over 80hz for the time being.


I don't have any testing equipment but I usually run the x4000 between 55 and 60 on the amp dial with the mains set to +2 and rears -3. That might give you some idea of how loud I play it if you're familiar with the x4000.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	room1.png
Views:	27
Size:	3.8 KB
ID:	438546  

Last edited by nirvy111; 12-23-2014 at 11:42 PM.
nirvy111 is offline  
post #1130 of 1139 Old 12-24-2014, 05:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
steveting99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,054
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
...
Sketch is a little wonky but it's a good approximation of my setup. Front speakers about a foot off the side walls but about 3 feet from the screen wall, surround speakers about the same and back speakers about half a foot off the back wall and at either corner of the couch, they're pretty close as you can see in the diagram.
Thanks for the sketch. The room is an odd shape. Go into the X4000 speaker setup menu and advise the distances shown for each speaker.

Looks like you've got a single sub as shown in the sketch? Two subs will do a much better job of dealing with room modes and smoothing out the bass at the MLP. As the MLP is at the room boundary, there would be greater variance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
...I do get increased bass with the couch close to the back wall but like I said I didn't experience any fatigue with this configuration until I got the kef ls50's, so the speakers are partly to blame but maybe a different configuration might fix the problem. I'm very restricted for room space because my screen is 160" and I can't move the seating any closer.
Changing speakers affects the sound signature of the room. Did you have the X4000 setup with previous speakers? What were the previous speakers make and model as well as the sensitivity numbers?

The seating position of the sofa near the wall also means there's going to be plenty of reflections off the back wall and ceiling. You might want to look at treatment there first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
...Using dyn eq could be adding to the problem I suspect, but again I didn't have fatigue issues before owning the kef's.
I think the audyssey on the denon x4000 sets the speakers to 60 hz I think but I switched it over 80hz for the time being.


I don't have any testing equipment but I usually run the x4000 between 55 and 60 on the amp dial with the mains set to +2 and rears -3. That might give you some idea of how loud I play it if you're familiar with the x4000.
You can disable DynEQ and try that for a while to see if it improves e listening experience.

With the Main Volume between 55 and 60, that's well within the spec range of the amp section in the receiver. I.e. It will deliver low distortion power to the speakers.

It's worthwhile to grab a radio shack handheld SPL meter. The cost is around $40 and useful to check things. A calibration disc is also useful to check your settings - including your projector setup.

In the speaker setup menu, please advise the level settings. Did you manually change the levels for the fronts to +2dB and surrounds to -3dB?

Are the tweeters pointed to the MLP?

When you did an Audyssey run, was it just for the MLP or over the entire sofa area? The correction filters would be very different.

Maranatz SR-7009(on order), Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G

Last edited by steveting99; 12-24-2014 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Typo
steveting99 is offline  
post #1131 of 1139 Old 12-24-2014, 08:55 PM
Senior Member
 
nirvy111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Thanks for the sketch. The room is an odd shape. Go into the X4000 speaker setup menu and advise the distances shown for each speaker.

Looks like you've got a single sub as shown in the sketch? Two subs will do a much better job of dealing with room modes and smoothing out the bass at the MLP. As the MLP is at the room boundary, there would be greater variance.



Changing speakers affects the sound signature of the room. Did you have the X4000 setup with previous speakers? What were the previous speakers make and model as well as the sensitivity numbers?

I did rerun audyssey for ls50's. Previous speakers I had were Monitor Audio Bronze Bx and later Q acoustics concept 20's. Both sets of speakers have a more diffused sound, compared to the ls50's. The ls50's have a more focused soundstage and could be a factor why I find them a little fatiguing, especially given how close the surrounds are relative to my head. MA Bronze bx 8 ohm 90db, QA concept 20's 6 ohm 88 db.





Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
The seating position of the sofa near the wall also means there's going to be plenty of reflections off the back wall and ceiling. You might want to look at treatment there first.

Yes looking into it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
You can disable DynEQ and try that for a while to see if it improves e listening experience.

With the Main Volume between 55 and 60, that's well within the spec range of the amp section in the receiver. I.e. It will deliver low distortion power to the speakers.

It's worthwhile to grab a radio shack handheld SPL meter. The cost is around $40 and useful to check things. A calibration disc is also useful to check your settings - including your projector setup.

In the speaker setup menu, please advise the level settings. Did you manually change the levels for the fronts to +2dB and surrounds to -3dB?

The audyssey set those levels. I will have ago with Dyn EQ off and see if that makes a difference. I much prefer it on but obviously if it helps eliminate fatigue then it's worth a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Are the tweeters pointed to the MLP?

The drivers on the front speakers are pointed more or less towards the MLP, the side surrounds are as well with the back surrounds pointing straight ahead(not toed in towards the MLP)

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
When you did an Audyssey run, was it just for the MLP or over the entire sofa area? The correction filters would be very different.

I ran audyssey across the entire sofa which is how I always do it but I can try bunching the readings closer together around the MLP and see if that changes anything. Thanks for the suggestions.

Last edited by nirvy111; 12-24-2014 at 09:03 PM.
nirvy111 is offline  
post #1132 of 1139 Old 12-25-2014, 05:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
steveting99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,054
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 411 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
... Previous speakers I had were Monitor Audio Bronze Bx and later Q acoustics concept 20's. Both sets of speakers have a more diffused sound, compared to the ls50's. The ls50's have a more focused soundstage and could be a factor why I find them a little fatiguing, especially given how close the surrounds are relative to my head. MA Bronze bx 8 ohm 90db, QA concept 20's 6 ohm 88 db.
The Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 has +5dB sensitivity advantage over the KEF LS50 and play lower. This means if the speakers were placed in the exact same position as before, the MLP remains the same and nothing else changed in your setup, then you would need less power to drive the Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 compared to the KEF LS50 at the same listening levels.

The Q Acoustics Concept 20 have about a +3dB sensitivity advantage over the KEF LS50. The Q Acoustics Concept 20 can also play lower and has a higher minimum impedance than the KEF LS50, so even on the same listening levels, the Q Acoustics would have a power advantage.

A +3dB increase in SPL means 2x more amp power.

If you're used to listening at a certain level with the Monitor Audio Bronze BX2, then changed to the Q Acoustics, the +2dB delta wouldn't have been much of a difference. But going down to the 85dB/W/m sensitivity of the KEF LS50 means a significant increase in the power requirements to maintain the same listening level - this again assumes nothing else has changed in your setup.

This is one of the reasons why your receiver is showing a +dB on the front speakers rather than -dB.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
...The drivers on the front speakers are pointed more or less towards the MLP, the side surrounds are as well with the back surrounds pointing straight ahead(not toed in towards the MLP).
Try pointing (i.e. toe-in) the surrounds and the back speakers towards your MLP. Audyssey will compensate for off angles of the tweeters by boosting the high frequencies and this may contribute to listening fatigue. Re-run Audyssey based on below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
...I ran audyssey across the entire sofa which is how I always do it but I can try bunching the readings closer together around the MLP and see if that changes anything. Thanks for the suggestions.
For a close mic position, try the following 8 points. All reference is to the MLP which should be at ear level. Use an inexpensive mic boom stand such as this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000978D58/...=IGUU4MJOW5K65 with an adapter like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GWCC4I/...I224NHN0YP4MZR for the Audyssey mic.

(1) MLP at ear level and center of head;
(2) MLP + 3" horizontally forward;
(3) MLP + 3" vertically up;
(4) MLP + 3" horizontally forward and 3" vertically up;
(5) MLP + 3" horizontally left;
(6) MLP + 3" horizontally right;
(7) MLP + 6" horizontally left;
(8) MLP + 6" horizontally right;

The LS50 is designed to start rolling off from 100Hz. This has been confirmed in the white paper by KEF and independent lab tests. Raise the crossover to 100Hz if sub localization doesn't bother you too much.

Maranatz SR-7009(on order), Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G
steveting99 is offline  
post #1133 of 1139 Old 12-25-2014, 05:34 AM
Senior Member
 
nirvy111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
The Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 has +5dB sensitivity advantage over the KEF LS50 and play lower. This means if the speakers were placed in the exact same position as before, the MLP remains the same and nothing else changed in your setup, then you would need less power to drive the Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 compared to the KEF LS50 at the same listening levels.

The Q Acoustics Concept 20 have about a +3dB sensitivity advantage over the KEF LS50. The Q Acoustics Concept 20 can also play lower and has a higher minimum impedance than the KEF LS50, so even on the same listening levels, the Q Acoustics would have a power advantage.

A +3dB increase in SPL means 2x more amp power.

If you're used to listening at a certain level with the Monitor Audio Bronze BX2, then changed to the Q Acoustics, the +2dB delta wouldn't have been much of a difference. But going down to the 85dB/W/m sensitivity of the KEF LS50 means a significant increase in the power requirements to maintain the same listening level - this again assumes nothing else has changed in your setup.

This is one of the reasons why your receiver is showing a +dB on the front speakers rather than -dB.




Try pointing (i.e. toe-in) the surrounds and the back speakers towards your MLP. Audyssey will compensate for off angles of the tweeters by boosting the high frequencies and this may contribute to listening fatigue. Re-run Audyssey based on below.



For a close mic position, try the following 8 points. All reference is to the MLP which should be at ear level. Use an inexpensive mic boom stand such as this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000978D58/...=IGUU4MJOW5K65 with an adapter like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GWCC4I/...I224NHN0YP4MZR for the Audyssey mic.

(1) MLP at ear level and center of head;
(2) MLP + 3" horizontally forward;
(3) MLP + 3" vertically up;
(4) MLP + 3" horizontally forward and 3" vertically up;
(5) MLP + 3" horizontally left;
(6) MLP + 3" horizontally right;
(7) MLP + 6" horizontally left;
(8) MLP + 6" horizontally right;

The LS50 is designed to start rolling off from 100Hz. This has been confirmed in the white paper by KEF and independent lab tests. Raise the crossover to 100Hz if sub localization doesn't bother you too much.

Thanks steveting99, I'll give those things a try. I thought it was interesting how you said that having the back speakers firing forward instead of toed in towards the MLP could be causing the audyssey to boost the high frequencies. That would certainly contribute to any fatigue if that's the case, especially with those back speakers so close to my head.

Last edited by nirvy111; 12-25-2014 at 05:38 AM.
nirvy111 is offline  
post #1134 of 1139 Old 12-25-2014, 12:28 PM
Senior Member
 
coli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
Thanks steveting99, I'll give those things a try. I thought it was interesting how you said that having the back speakers firing forward instead of toed in towards the MLP could be causing the audyssey to boost the high frequencies. That would certainly contribute to any fatigue if that's the case, especially with those back speakers so close to my head.
Fatigue is usually caused by high frequencies, do you have audyssey set to movie or music? Set it to movie and it should be much better.
coli is offline  
post #1135 of 1139 Old Today, 02:48 AM
Newbie
 
21questions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi all, I'm looking to own a pair of the ls50's. I'm in the process of putting my desktop system together, but wanted some insight from all you experts. Could someone please help me find the right integrated amplifier?

- My primary connectivity will be from my Imac.
- Play music from my iPod/android/iPhone (wired &/or wirelessly)
- Eventually would like to add a subwoofer in the near future.
- That can power a high end headphone
- Future proof on power(Watts), I'd like some cushion.
- Stylish exterior
- Wouldn't mind a treble and bass knob

Budget would be $2000'ish. So far i've come across:

- Peachtree 125se &220se
- Nad 7050
- Marantz PM8005

I'm currently running through this thread trying to learn more, but I'd appreciate any help. FYI I won't be using this for any surround sound theater. I'm leaning on having a separate headphone amp. Maybe the Senn HDVD 800 or OPPO HA 1, but one integrated in an amp that's as effective wouldn't hurt.

Last edited by 21questions; Today at 03:29 AM.
21questions is online now  
post #1136 of 1139 Old Today, 04:57 AM
Senior Member
 
nirvy111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 33
So just an update on my fatigue problem with the ls50's. I ended moving the surround backs closer to the side walls and higher up about a foot and a half down from the ceiling instead of at ear height thus creating an extra 3 foot of space on both sides between my head and the speakers, I also moved the surround sides a bit further forward as well and then rerun audyssey. So far I've watched Transformers 4, Hercules and Dark Knight Rises and have yet to experience any fatigue like I did before. Basically the issue was having the surrounds too close to the MLP and my ears were getting hammered by the uniQ driver of the ls50, which are brighter and more focused than any speaker I've used previously in my setup. There are a few other things I can try that might help but I feel I've pretty much rectified the problem. And by the way they sound awesome, watching Dark Night Rises again was the best I've ever heard with that movie, highly immersive and detailed.
nirvy111 is offline  
post #1137 of 1139 Old Today, 12:31 PM
Member
 
highd3f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Croatia
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Can anyone tell me if the Yamaha RX-A1020 would suffice for a pair of LS50?
highd3f is online now  
post #1138 of 1139 Old Today, 01:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
drewTT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA
Posts: 1,942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by 21questions View Post
Hi all, I'm looking to own a pair of the ls50's. I'm in the process of putting my desktop system together, but wanted some insight from all you experts. Could someone please help me find the right integrated amplifier?

- My primary connectivity will be from my Imac.
- Play music from my iPod/android/iPhone (wired &/or wirelessly)
- Eventually would like to add a subwoofer in the near future.
- That can power a high end headphone
- Future proof on power(Watts), I'd like some cushion.
- Stylish exterior
- Wouldn't mind a treble and bass knob

Budget would be $2000'ish. So far i've come across:

- Peachtree 125se &220se
- Nad 7050
- Marantz PM8005

I'm currently running through this thread trying to learn more, but I'd appreciate any help. FYI I won't be using this for any surround sound theater. I'm leaning on having a separate headphone amp. Maybe the Senn HDVD 800 or OPPO HA 1, but one integrated in an amp that's as effective wouldn't hurt.
If you are looking at the HA1, why not just use that as a pre-amp and pickup a nice amp? You can always add a sub to that if the sub has high pass outs. The HA1 makes a superb DAC, headphone amp, and a very good pre-amp. I am actually looking at one myself.
drewTT is online now  
post #1139 of 1139 Old Today, 01:44 PM
Newbie
 
21questions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
If you are looking at the HA1, why not just use that as a pre-amp and pickup a nice amp? You can always add a sub to that if the sub has high pass outs. The HA1 makes a superb DAC, headphone amp, and a very good pre-amp. I am actually looking at one myself.

Hi there and thank you for helping me out. I'm not going to lie and tell you that my knowledge of this whole audiophile world is less than a 5/10.With that being said, what is a pre amp oppose to an amp? how does that look and why have both?

I just clicked on your "My System" and its clean and respectable, may i add.
21questions is online now  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Kef Ls50 2 Way Speaker System

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off