KEF LS50 Owners - Page 58 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1711 of 1731 Old 01-26-2016, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Yes, designate the 2nd pair of speakers as TM and have it flush mounted into the false ceiling. 8' floor to ceiling height is okay. Are you able to place the TM on the other side of the duct work so that it's just in front on the MLP?
Yes I can. I can create a box in front of the bulk head and install the speaker in it. From the back wall to the end of the duct, its 30inch. So the speaker will be situated 30inch away from the back wall. As the MLP would likely be 12 inch or so away from the back wall, the speaker will be 18" away from MLP. Would you classify this as slightly ahead of MLP?


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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
On the Front Height speakers, below is the Dolby recommendations.
Plan view of Front Height speakers:
Elevation view of Front Height speakers:
So I am assuming the Front Height makes better sense to you than TF in the bulk head? I also thought that Front height have to be angled slightly towards the MLP, but in diagram above they seem to be looking straight ahead. and could you let me know where did you find the pictures above? Is there a Atmos installation guide that has this info?

Thank you
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post #1712 of 1731 Old 01-26-2016, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lakesideb View Post
Yes I can. I can create a box in front of the bulk head and install the speaker in it. From the back wall to the end of the duct, its 30inch. So the speaker will be situated 30inch away from the back wall. As the MLP would likely be 12 inch or so away from the back wall, the speaker will be 18" away from MLP. Would you classify this as slightly ahead of MLP?
The TM being 18" in front of the MLP is okay.

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Originally Posted by Lakesideb View Post
...So I am assuming the Front Height makes better sense to you than TF in the bulk head? I also thought that Front height have to be angled slightly towards the MLP, but in diagram above they seem to be looking straight ahead. and could you let me know where did you find the pictures above? Is there a Atmos installation guide that has this info?

Thank you
Front Heights (FH) as the 1st pair of ceiling speakers is the only pair available for you since the 2nd pair is TM. So, yes FH makes the most sense.

The pictures are on the Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guide which is available here: http://www.pioneer.eu/files/dolby_at...Guidelines.pdf

You might want to consider Front Wides (FW) if the space and angles in the room permit it. The LS50 can be utilized as the front wide pair. Atmos will utilize the FW and are more active in a soundtrack that is encoded with Atmos than the ceiling speakers.

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post #1713 of 1731 Old 01-26-2016, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BB1111 View Post
Anyone try this crossover mod to the LS50?

My german isn't that great but the results are interesting..

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-104-26095.html
Where's the translate buttom. What exactly did they do, change some of the component values? I did that to my last speakers (Maggie MMGs), fun stuff.
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post #1714 of 1731 Old 01-27-2016, 12:01 AM
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I'm not sure why so many people recommend a second sub. If they are not configured perfectly, they will sound worse than a single. I think money is better spent controlling the sub with something like an antimode (after doing the obligatory sub crawl). You may want to avoid fiddlefarting around with dual subs, unless you have two beautiful response curves where you place them.

Just for the record as well, for those of us who can't afford to buy 5 LS50's, the Q100's sound really awesome as either surrounds, or as left and right with an LS50 as a center (until you can afford the pair). Been listening to that setup for a couple of weeks until my bday when I am 'allowed' the use of the LR pair.

Last edited by skinnydoggy; 01-27-2016 at 12:05 AM.
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post #1715 of 1731 Old 01-27-2016, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by skinnydoggy View Post
I'm not sure why so many people recommend a second sub. If they are not configured perfectly, they will sound worse than a single. I think money is better spent controlling the sub with something like an antimode (after doing the obligatory sub crawl). You may want to avoid fiddlefarting around with dual subs, unless you have two beautiful response curves where you place them...
The main purpose of a 2nd sub is to fill in the null(s) caused by the 1st sub due to room modes.

Not amount of EQ will help deal with a null.

If one has done a frequency sweep in the listening room with one sub and compared to the frequency sweep of two subs without applying any EQ, it's very obvious what multiple subs can do to improve sound quality.

Time alignment of the both subs are important as bass frequencies are a mono signal. I.e. getting the phase right so both signals are coincident. Placement is most important for a single sub. With a second sub, one is looking for the next best location and thus less important. Note that the Main Listening Position (MLP) is also another variable to consider.

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post #1716 of 1731 Old 01-27-2016, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
The TM being 18" in front of the MLP is okay.



Front Heights (FH) as the 1st pair of ceiling speakers is the only pair available for you since the 2nd pair is TM. So, yes FH makes the most sense.

The pictures are on the Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guide which is available here: http://www.pioneer.eu/files/dolby_at...Guidelines.pdf

You might want to consider Front Wides (FW) if the space and angles in the room permit it. The LS50 can be utilized as the front wide pair. Atmos will utilize the FW and are more active in a soundtrack that is encoded with Atmos than the ceiling speakers.
Thanks Steve for your response.

One thing I realized is that the ducting above MLP shouldn't be that much of an issue, as the ceiling speaker depth is 4". I could always put the speakers underneath the duct if required without loosing too much height.

So I after reading everything, this is how I am thinking of attacking this



And I intend to use Kef Ci200QR for all 4 speakers. For the FR and TM installation, I will be putting these in a backerbox and angle it down towards the MLP... like in image below.



The angle from MLP to FH is 21 degree, which is lower than the 30 degree minimum recommended. So I thought that angling them towards MLP will help resolve the angle issue perhaps.

Any thoughts ?

Thanks

Last edited by Lakesideb; 01-27-2016 at 08:03 AM.
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post #1717 of 1731 Old 01-27-2016, 04:48 PM
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Would anyone be interested in going halfsies on a pair of Matte Black LS50s? Ideally, someone located in/around Los Angeles as that's where I am. I noticed on KEFDirect that the Racing Red finish is already gone and would hate to miss out on a Matte Black center channel between my two Gloss Whites

I can be reached at [my AVSForum username]@gmail.com or via PM.
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post #1718 of 1731 Old 01-27-2016, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Lakesideb View Post
Thanks Steve for your response.

One thing I realized is that the ducting above MLP shouldn't be that much of an issue, as the ceiling speaker depth is 4". I could always put the speakers underneath the duct if required without loosing too much height.

So I after reading everything, this is how I am thinking of attacking this



And I intend to use Kef Ci200QR for all 4 speakers. For the FR and TM installation, I will be putting these in a backerbox and angle it down towards the MLP... like in image below.



The angle from MLP to FH is 21 degree, which is lower than the 30 degree minimum recommended. So I thought that angling them towards MLP will help resolve the angle issue perhaps.

Any thoughts ?

Thanks
The Top Middle speakers at the back wall are fine.

The main concern is the Front Height (FH) speakers and the bulkhead that goes across the entire width of the room. It's going to interfere with the sound waves between the FH speakers and Main Listening Position (MLP). How far down the false ceiling does the bulkhead extend? Or is the bulkhead flush to the false ceiling and thus not an issue?

If you can pull forward the FH speakers so that the minimum 30 deg to the MLP is achieved - it would be ideal. If not then 21 deg vertical elevation angle to the MLP wont be a deal breaker. If the Front Left (FL) and Front Right (FR) speakers are directly below the FH then the maximum angular separation between floor and ceiling speakers is achieved such that phantom imaging during Atmos object creation can be rendered.

Have you thought about placing Front Wides (FW) at ear level within the room and expand the front sound stage? If you're able to place the FWs at 60 deg to the MLP, Atmos will take advantage of these additional speakers in the object rendering. The pair of LS50 that you've ordered for stereo can go to FW duty. Modern pre/pro/receivers will have the ability to take advantage of the FWs and your system will be a 7.1.4 Atmos setup which is the maximum number of channels that is affordable currently.

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Last edited by steveting99; 01-27-2016 at 05:46 PM. Reason: additional text
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post #1719 of 1731 Old 01-27-2016, 10:14 PM
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Lucky,
I also recently bought the frosted black LS50's, and I also have an Oppo HA-1. I have paired these to both a Parasound A23 and a Arcam A19 FMJ. Unfortunately I think I got the last Arcam A19 in the US because they have disappeared from what I can tell.

I recently did a good comparison, and BOTH are glorious, you would be happy with either. To my ears, with speakers that only have about 30 hours of break in time, the Arcam is slightly warmer, with the Parasound being a bit more neutral. The Arcam, while rated at less power is enough to power these just fine in my medium sized room, but the Parasound is noticeably better at painful volumes.

Bottom line - the Parasound is readily available for purchase, but the Arcam is a great choice if you like your audio on the warm side.

Of note, speaker break-in is real. There has been a huge improvement in the sound as these get broken in. Didn't expect that!
Thanks for the reply and after doing some more research I found a somewhat local shop that has Parasound amps, and Arcam FJM A19 and the new A29 version which is 80 watts vs the 50. I was told the A19 will be retiring somewhat soon so I would like to hear them in person. So this coming weekend I plan on making my mind up. The shop even said if I wanted to bring my Oppo HA-1 I could along with any music which I thought was cool and not to mention he has LS50's in the store.
I will keep you guys updated and thanks for your input and help all.
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post #1720 of 1731 Old 01-31-2016, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by LuckyTage View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by feenics View Post
Lucky,
I also recently bought the frosted black LS50's, and I also have an Oppo HA-1. I have paired these to both a Parasound A23 and a Arcam A19 FMJ. Unfortunately I think I got the last Arcam A19 in the US because they have disappeared from what I can tell.

I recently did a good comparison, and BOTH are glorious, you would be happy with either. To my ears, with speakers that only have about 30 hours of break in time, the Arcam is slightly warmer, with the Parasound being a bit more neutral. The Arcam, while rated at less power is enough to power these just fine in my medium sized room, but the Parasound is noticeably better at painful volumes.

Bottom line - the Parasound is readily available for purchase, but the Arcam is a great choice if you like your audio on the warm side.

Of note, speaker break-in is real. There has been a huge improvement in the sound as these get broken in. Didn't expect that!
Thanks for the reply and after doing some more research I found a somewhat local shop that has Parasound amps, and Arcam FJM A19 and the new A29 version which is 80 watts vs the 50. I was told the A19 will be retiring somewhat soon so I would like to hear them in person. So this coming weekend I plan on making my mind up. The shop even said if I wanted to bring my Oppo HA-1 I could along with any music which I thought was cool and not to mention he has LS50's in the store.
I will keep you guys updated and thanks for your input and help all.
Just wondering how arcam A19 Comparing with nad 356bee both has same price in my country..

Which one better guys ?
I like warm sound with great bass,wide stagging and detail..

My bedroom about 3m x3m,so maybe huge power is not nescessary..CMIIW
is that right ?
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post #1721 of 1731 Old 02-01-2016, 08:12 PM
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Just wondering how arcam A19 Comparing with nad 356bee both has same price in my country..

Which one better guys ?
I like warm sound with great bass,wide stagging and detail..

My bedroom about 3m x3m,so maybe huge power is not nescessary..CMIIW
is that right ?
In reading up on both it appears they are both very appropriate for your speakers and the space they live in. The difference may not lie such in "warmth" but in connections and features you may need now or want in the future. With the Arcam A19 you get no option for direct digital inputs though you do get a phone pre-amp. With the NAD 356BEE you also don't get the digital inputs (nor the phono pre-amp), though you can add those later if needed. The NAD has the capacity to add an MDC module for digital inputs. Or you can get it complete by buying the 356BEE DAC model.

Both appear to have two sets of speaker outputs.

The fact that the NAD 356BEE has 60% more power may not be needed...until you want it. Me, I'd rather have the headroom and not need it than need it and not have it. You could be equally happy with either unit.

System includes KEF R500 floor standing, R200C center, R100 surrounds, SVS SB1000 subwoofer, NAD T758 receiver, Bluesound Vault, Sony BDP-S480 BlueRay player, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer, MCS System cassette deck, AudioTechnica LP260 turntable. The last 3 items are dust collectors but will work if asked.
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post #1722 of 1731 Old 02-02-2016, 11:34 PM
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Hey there,

I have these as my L/R speakers in a 5.1 with yamaha C/SL/SR and a JAMO sub. In this setup they are wonderful. I find them sounding best at least 50cm from the wall. Also, they pretty much have to be at the ear height. Not sure what your setup looks like, but my center speaker is below the TV, way lower than my ear height and thus it doesn't sound quite as clear when I tried placing the LS50 there.
This placement concern is also the reason why I am still hesitant to go all the way with a 7.1 LS50s. I would need a considerable amount of room to have all speakers 0,5m from the walls.
I did play with the included foams but to no avail. The foams muddy the sound to my ears.

For some reason, this may be due to my AV receiver (Denon AVR-2113), they sound best when the volume it fairy high, at around 60-70 on the volume dial. Then they start to really shine!

Putting them sideways should be alright.

So far the only concern is aesthetics. Color wise, I might have preferred silver to copper. I've had them for a month now and dust poses no problem, only to the black glossy finish.

Q100s as surrounds would be amazing!

Cheers
I use Q100 speakers for my surrounds and they are in fact amazing.
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post #1723 of 1731 Old 02-03-2016, 05:35 AM
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I use Q100 speakers for my surrounds and they are in fact amazing.
They probably are pretty darn good! I had the previous version (iQ10) as surrounds until KEF tempted me with their "12 Days Of Christmas" sale on the R100 at $799 a pair (huge savings over the normal $1199/pr price.)

In watching movies, I notice virtually no difference. Only when I use my NAD receiver's "Enhanced Stereo" mode for playing music while moving around the house and want fuller sound (no true stereo imaging, of course) do I clearly hear just how good the R100 really are.

My son now has the iQ10 pair as his rear speakers in his Q300/Q200c/Q800ds/iQ10/SB2000 speaker array 7.1 system. I was there yesterday for a movie surround sound demo and the whole thing just blew my mind. His room is near-perfect and that helps, but with movies you would never in a million years think he's got under $3K in the system including the 60" TV. It sounds better than most $10K to $15K systems I've heard and you can bank on that. No question that it was better than any movie theater around here!

System includes KEF R500 floor standing, R200C center, R100 surrounds, SVS SB1000 subwoofer, NAD T758 receiver, Bluesound Vault, Sony BDP-S480 BlueRay player, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer, MCS System cassette deck, AudioTechnica LP260 turntable. The last 3 items are dust collectors but will work if asked.
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post #1724 of 1731 Old 02-03-2016, 07:17 PM
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Looks like the KEF LS50 has some competition coming along it's way courtesy of Andrew Jones and the new ELAC Uni-FI B5 bookselves that's on display at CES.

There's going to some interesting comparisons between these coincident design (point source) speakers. The low frequency response will be the main differentiation. Hoping to see some polar plots of the Uni-FI B5 and compare that to LS50.

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post #1725 of 1731 Old Yesterday, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Looks like the KEF LS50 has some competition coming along it's way courtesy of Andrew Jones and the new ELAC Uni-FI B5 bookselves that's on display at CES.

There's going to some interesting comparisons between these coincident design (point source) speakers. The low frequency response will be the main differentiation. Hoping to see some polar plots of the Uni-FI B5 and compare that to LS50.
Yes they will Good for us!
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I'll be watching to see just how closely ELAC's concentric Uni-Fi speaker assembly is designed and assembled as compared to KEF's Uni-Q. If too similar and KEF has patents still in effect....we'll be seeing if Gold Peak Acoustic's lawyers can beat up ELAC's.

System includes KEF R500 floor standing, R200C center, R100 surrounds, SVS SB1000 subwoofer, NAD T758 receiver, Bluesound Vault, Sony BDP-S480 BlueRay player, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer, MCS System cassette deck, AudioTechnica LP260 turntable. The last 3 items are dust collectors but will work if asked.
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post #1727 of 1731 Old Yesterday, 06:26 PM
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I'll be watching to see just how closely ELAC's concentric Uni-Fi speaker assembly is designed and assembled as compared to KEF's Uni-Q. If too similar and KEF has patents still in effect....we'll be seeing if Gold Peak Acoustic's lawyers can beat up ELAC's.
The ELAC has a different tweeter (soft dome) compared to the KEF's (aluminium tangerine waveguide) so there's that major difference. Plus there's going to be some tuning differences so it will sound different from each other.

Tannoy also does concentric speakers, so it's no big secret.

When it comes to infringing on KEF's patents, I don't think ELAC has anything to be worried about. Andrew Jones once worked for KEF as their chief designer and now works for ELAC. Andrew is aware of KEF's intellectual property and won't be intentionally copying. He's clever enough to come up with something new and better.

Princeton university has done an independent acoustic measurements for directivity on KEF's LS50. The polar plots on both horizontal and vertical dispersion is very good up to +/- 30 deg.

Would like to see something similar or better from the new ELAC Uni-FI B5.

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post #1728 of 1731 Old Yesterday, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
I'll be watching to see just how closely ELAC's concentric Uni-Fi speaker assembly is designed and assembled as compared to KEF's Uni-Q. If too similar and KEF has patents still in effect....we'll be seeing if Gold Peak Acoustic's lawyers can beat up ELAC's.
The ELAC has a different tweeter (soft dome) compared to the KEF's (aluminium tangerine waveguide) so there's that major difference. Plus there's going to be some tuning differences so it will sound different from each other.

Tannoy also does concentric speakers, so it's no big secret.

When it comes to infringing on KEF's patents, I don't think ELAC has anything to be worried about. Andrew Jones once worked for KEF as their chief designer and now works for ELAC. Andrew is aware of KEF's intellectual property and won't be intentionally copying. He's clever enough to come up with something new and better.

Princeton university has done an independent acoustic measurements for directivity on KEF's LS50. The polar plots on both horizontal and vertical dispersion is very good up to +/- 30 deg.

Would like to see something similar or better from the new ELAC Uni-FI B5.
Plus he had a stint creating some amazing speakers at TAD, some of the best in the world with coincident drivers.
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post #1729 of 1731 Old Today, 04:59 AM
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I think I've decided an LS50 is a closer match to my KEF Reference 107/2s than the R600C I had been using. So my setup is the two 107/2s, five LS50s, and two Velodyne HGS-15s.
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post #1730 of 1731 Old Today, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I've decided an LS50 is a closer match to my KEF Reference 107/2s than the R600C I had been using. So my setup is the two 107/2s, five LS50s, and two Velodyne HGS-15s.
Montecito very nice

Yes the LS50 will compliment your system very well
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post #1731 of 1731 Old Today, 08:03 PM
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Although the LS50 matches the 107/2s closer with pink noise, the R600C seems to present a seamless front sound stage between the 107/2s that the LS50 doesn't quite accomplish. Dialog seems clearer, perhaps sharper, with the LS50, but is entirely intelligible with the R600C. I suspect I have some days of switching between them ahead of me.
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