I liked QSC K12 Active speakers. Anyone else? Beuler? Beuler? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 10-31-2012, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Recently, I was at a wedding. Very very large hall.

There were only two speakers being used. QSC K12 Active speakers.

I felt that they would be superb for Home theatre use. Probably not for audiophiles or for fine music but I felt they were excellent for those (like me) who use their home theatre room, exclusively for movies.

Originally, I had JBL synthesis 3 system. They came with active switching - between its tweeter and its horn, based on the listening mode. That made it easy for me to compare the tweeter and the horn.. Clearly, tweeter was preferable for music and the horn was preferable for movies, from the same speaker.
I still use those speakers but as rear channels, because I chose to go with a larger sound stage and larger woofer and horn.

Currently, I am using Bryston 7bst mono blocks and Electro voice two way speakers with a 2" horn and am very pleased with the setup. Again, its not a set up for the true audiophile but they are quite impressive for movies - because of the large sound stage (12" or 15" woofer? I forgot.).

My recent experience in audio - I made the decision for two other home theaters of friends. Essentially, I used Anthem processor, QSC pro amps and Legacy audio speakers. legacy Audio Harmony Center HD in wall was excellent. Probably better than my Electrovoice? may be.. I am writing these details - just to give you an idea of my tastes/preferences - so that you can understand my limitations and experiences.. Of course, the Bryston 7BST amp is much superior to the QSC pro amps.. but they are also very expensive.. I felt that the QSC K12 active speakers were very very good, for their under $1000/ea price range.

I felt as if the design of the amp and the speaker combination made a great match. Its not always easy to mate amps and speakers. Also, in my situation, I tried 3 way electrovoice, which were more expensive than my two way but I didn't like them. I had even tried digital crossovers for the 3 way speakers. Then, I realized that a simple analog crossover is fine, if properly designed/tuned for that combo.. Now, adding a built in amp is an even better option.. I guess that's why Meridian speakers are so well regarded for their excellence.

I like the directionality of the horn based speakers - in a typical home theatre set up, the width of the screen is not always substantial and in any screen width, it is quite desirable to me, to be able to isolate sound from each of the front three speakers. It enhances the audio experience - for me.

Also, as I am getting older (50+), I find that I have lost hearing beyond 8k (according to mosquito noise test). Hence, I cannot appreciate pure audiophile speakers going up to 20 Khz range anyway.

These QSCs seem to be the right "sweet spot" for me.. Hence, these might be desirable for those of us in the 40+ range..

BTW, you should buy a processor with XLR output, in order to use these speakers. I don't like "conversion from RCA to XLR" in the path. Less in the path is better.

I am writing this, not to start an argument or anything, but as a suggestion for the 40+ crowd to consider..

If you want to test your hearing, google mosquito noise hearing test. There has been a discussion on AVS on this very subject, in the past..
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post #2 of 30 Old 11-01-2012, 06:12 AM
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The QSC K series has been received very well here actually. First started with the diy crowd primarily using waveguides / horns from the QSC HPR models. You may want to take a look at the QSC KW 122 which is a 12" 2way like the K12 but with a wood cab instead of the plastic/ abs K12. I had the opprotunity to listen to K10's in a home environment critical/listening and we/I came to the conclusion that it gives up nothing compared to typical hifi speaker designs. The big difference is the way the directivity of the horn behaves in the room. A hifi tweeter with huge "spray" coverage, for me, starts to sound artificial and unatural due to the fact you hear mostly room reflections & interactions w the room boundaries. The horn allows one to hear more direct undistorted sound original content instead of the "room". Oh & dont forget the nearly unlimited dynamic range of a compression driver/horn which translates to clean clean natural reproduction.
QSC in a nutshell has taken the time/care to engineer speakers that are typical PA that actually sound good as well. They have been building amplifiers forever for the pro arena as well as processing dsp (measurments for these QSC are ruler flat after dsp processing)
they know what they are doing from input to output. Unfortunately alot of pro/pa companies have a bad rep because they go loud & dont blow up but sound bad. However there are companies that are building audiophile worthy designs. Hopefully it will stay a "secret"

Pro speakers that would work for domestic hifi/cinema: (i'm sure there could be more)
QSC HPR
QSC K Series
QSC KW Series

Yorkville
Danley

Also take a look at Econowave and SEOS builds in DIY section
Pi speakers & Geddes as well

I too am an audiophile that owns Rotel & Bryston gear (Energy,Mirage,B&W ,Genelec speakers) but once you go down this road it will never be the same. All good .
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post #3 of 30 Old 11-01-2012, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genelec Man View Post

The big difference is the way the directivity of the horn behaves in the room. A hifi tweeter with huge "spray" coverage, for me, starts to sound artificial and unatural due to the fact you hear mostly room reflections & interactions w the room boundaries. The horn allows one to hear more direct undistorted sound original content instead of the "room".
Completely, I agree with you about the "directionality" of these. I meant to write the same.. when I wrote that I would like to be able to isolate each of the front three speakers' sound.. Your explanation is better. I heard good things about genelecs but I didn't try them out. Do they also come with horns? I heard one small bookshelf type pair of powered genelecs, a very long time ago and was not particularly impressed at that time. I don't recall clearly.. it was more than 10 years ago.. I was told that the high end genelecs were among the best. Some day, I would like to audition them.
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post #4 of 30 Old 11-01-2012, 06:48 AM
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With a name "Genelec Man" yes I am a fanboy. They are very good as well. Their designs use waveguides. I have a pair of 8050's which have got to be one of the great 2 way's ever IMO. Problem w Gen & other big studio monitor names is the high price tag. They are what they are & they cost what they cost. If you start to break down what these are in terms of drivers etc. its really easy to take a look at diy as a solution or maybe even better are companies like QSC that may actually deliver most if not match? Its very interesting to me to see companies like Procella & Pro Cinema Tech come out w high end solutions that use use pro/pa components. They use solid basic designs w bulletproof high end pro components. Probably saw Genelec & JBL doing it for years and said why not? lets do it too! There is obviously a market in the high end arena.
When you know the actuall drivers being used & start to look at companies like Seaton Sound or JTR and then compare prices, well things get very interesting & you can save a boat load of money and probably get equal performanceif not better. I'm not an engineer or speaker designer & know there is alot more to it than just drivers in a box . Because of the generous diy crowd that does" know "it wouldn't be hard to make something yourself or like i said a halfway logical solution would be a ID company like Pi speakers,Geddes, Seaton Sound,JTR ,and a few more I'm sure.
If I win the 50 million this Friday's lotto probably get a massive Genelec setup or Danley, Meyer EXP but now that i have kids in hockey etc its time to look at practical solutions like QSC. Always said that 5 K8 and a good sub or two would be a giant killer system.
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post #5 of 30 Old 11-01-2012, 10:42 AM
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I have been thinking about the Genelec 1037's for LCR lately. I've had a demo pair at home for a week and really enjoyed them. Would the QSC KW 153 be comparable?
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post #6 of 30 Old 11-01-2012, 11:34 AM
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I have setup 2 systems with 1037's up front as LCR's & both systems sounded terrific. They do a really good job with anything (music/movies) any input will be reproduced accurately. I would recommend taking a look at Genelec's room sizing charts for proper matching. If your budget allows for 1037's go for it you will not be disapointed. The KW 153 will have higher output. I have seen some measurements of these & they are flat as a board. Remember these were built for a different purpose than a hifi speaker just like the 1037 was never designed to be in a home either. If you go into a store that sells QSC KW & tell the person they are for your home theatre chances are you'll be laughed at or even kicked out! Different worlds but lucky for us (HT/music ) these QSC's are an incredible bargain & I would bet they would hold up well against 1037/1038 Genelec's. In fact if you had KW153 behind a perf screen or built in (hidden) your friends/experienced listeners would be blown away. A good speaker is a good speaker.
Genelec 1037 x 3 world class but expensive
QSC KW 153 x 3 Huge bargain. Put a domestic veneer on them and sell for 3 times the price & most likely accepted more.

Genelec tweeter SEAS in a waveguide
Genelec mid Looks like PHL design
Genelec woofer PHL 12"

QSC KW tweeter Celestion compression driver in horn/waveguide
QSC KW mid Celestion in Waveguide
QSC KW Woofer 15" Celestion

Note all Genelec's use aluminum 1" dome except their largest 1036 which uses a compression driver.
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post #7 of 30 Old 11-01-2012, 12:38 PM
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Thanks. I also tried the Adam AX8, and found then quite harsh in comparison to the Genelec. The Genelec were much more musical. Where do you perceive the QSC's to fit in?
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post #8 of 30 Old 11-01-2012, 01:07 PM
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I haven't heard any KW series yet but have listened extensively to the K series K10. The top end was very open and had excellent clarity. I believe the KW with the birch cabinet will be slightly better. The waveguides also look to be possibly better? The thing to pay attention to would be the radiating pattern of the speaker. As you go up in the range the pattern is narrower because the throw needs to be longer (distance). For a domestic room this would mean increased toe in.
I have never heard the Adam lineup. Best advise would be to try & have a listen. A good idea would be to find a company (like Long & Mcaude..sorry spelling) or something that would probably rent them QSC out.
I agree the Genelecs are musical OR the music recording i listened to was done well which translated. If & when you listen to QSC give them a fair chance because they will look like a PA system (because they are!) And they will not extend as low as you might think they should. But be prepared for stunning uncompressed dynamics in the frequency range they do operate in.
Once you here uncompressed pro drive units in a good design its hard to go back.
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post #9 of 30 Old 11-01-2012, 01:10 PM
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Another interesting benefit of the QSC are you could haul them outside for an outdoor event or evening backyard cinema!
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post #10 of 30 Old 11-01-2012, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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genelec man, have you heard the QSC KW 153 and the qsc k12 also?

I like the idea of 15" cone of the qsc kw 153.. I prefer the 15" cone.. 12" is not bad but there's something about the 15" that gives me a feeling of the "presence of woofer sound" - almost feeling the SPL with chest/body.. btw, I dislike subwoofers (except at very very low spl)

One of the concerns I have with genelecs is that they are studio monitors - probably meant for near field application?

Considering that I can't probably hear every nuance of the $5000 genelec, I think I would actually go for the $1200 QSC KW 153, as you suggested..

Some time next year, may be I will consider auditioning them and comparing them to my bryston/electro voice set up.. Just to see if they would be even superior.. Do you think they would be superior to my bryston/electrovoice two way setup? Just your guess?
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post #11 of 30 Old 11-02-2012, 06:20 AM
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I have never heard the KW153 only K series (all models). Like most people I am impressed with the K series. The KW should only be a bit better certainly not worse. I also agree that a larger woofer has a certain effortless quality. Your right that most of the smaller Genelec's are for nearfield applications. I find my 8050's do a wonderful job even in a fairly large room but if you need more headroom/large room/increased distance etc. than of course speakers designed to "throw" further are better. A near field in a small room = good performance. Farfield in small room = good performance too.
I have only heard EV in commercial cinema (great)not anything comparable to QSC Kseries. Bryston is awesome gear (love my SP1.7)
The advantage/convenience of K/KW is the active amp dsp. Plug & play. My guess is the QSC would have an edge in sound quality.
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post #12 of 30 Old 11-02-2012, 01:01 PM
 
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I haven't heard the KWs but the directivity of speaker can have advantages and disadvantages depending on application and room. It is room dependant but having a narrower dispersion is not always desired and depnding how a speaker measures off axis helps us determine how to use various types of acoustic treatments in the room. With that conical waveguide the KW will have more limited dispersion than the Genelecs and it is also what gives a speaker more output if comparing identical drivers.

I wouldn't recommend one over the other as the room and application have to be known. Both are good comapnies with solid engineering behind their products. Let us know what you think when you get them.

Genelec Man just FYI. The 5" midrange in the 1037 is made by Genelec and not made by another company for them. It is a heck of a 5" driver.
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post #13 of 30 Old 11-02-2012, 01:07 PM
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I had both the QSC K12's, and Yamaha DSR 112's in my home theater. I preferred the Yamaha sound in my room. They are limitless in there output ability in a home setting, and like genelec man said, you can have a killer outdoor party with them, I use mine on a friends boat from time to time.
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post #14 of 30 Old 11-02-2012, 05:16 PM
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BobL you are 100% correct about the 5" midrange. I took apart a 1037 & inspected the driver. Built like a tank . My "guess" is they may have borrowed a bit from PHL as there are similar traits compared to PHL 6.5 midrange units but yes its a Genelec unit. Would like to know what compression driver is used in the 1036. I'm guessing its a BMS unit but who knows. I love Genelec products & always will but I really do like what QSC has done with their K/KW series. A little bit of engineering here & there voila almost a cult following for a pa system.
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post #15 of 30 Old 11-03-2012, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genelec Man View Post

I have only heard EV in commercial cinema (great)not anything comparable to QSC Kseries. ...
To be clear, do you think that the QSC actives could be better than the Bryston + EV?
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post #16 of 30 Old 11-03-2012, 02:45 PM
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I went down to Long McQuade to check out the QSC's. They no longer carry them. One of the guys suggested I give a listen to Neumann KH120 and compare them side by side to the genelec 8050A. I was extremely impressed with the Neumann. They are coming out with a 3 way in the next couple of months that causes me to pause and wait. I have always been a huge Genelec fan, but these are so similar sounding for less than half price. Sorry for the OT
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post #17 of 30 Old 11-03-2012, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I went down to Long McQuade to check out the QSC's. They no longer carry them. One of the guys suggested I give a listen to Neumann KH120 and compare them side by side to the genelec 8050A. I was extremely impressed with the Neumann.
Again.. Neumann kh120 are near field monitors. You should try to audition QSCs.
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post #18 of 30 Old 11-03-2012, 04:14 PM
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Again.. Neumann kh120 are near field monitors. You should try to audition QSCs.

Don't know what you mean by "again..."? Neumann recommends the 120's for up to 11 feet distance, perfect for surrounds. I am going to find a pair of QSC's to listen to.
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post #19 of 30 Old 11-04-2012, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't know what you mean by "again..."? Neumann recommends the 120's for up to 11 feet distance, perfect for surrounds. I am going to find a pair of QSC's to listen to.
By again, I meant no offense but only to remind you that they are near field monitors. We had discussed genelecs being near field monitors, in the preceding posts.. that's why I used the word "again".. just to remind you of the preceding posts.. I might be biased but I am not a fan of using near field monitors in a home theater set up - unless its like a family room with open spaces and you sit very close to a very large LCD panel screen. I am of the conviction that, in a dedicated theater, near field monitors are not a good idea. What is your seating distance? On the sales floor, we tend to listen to the near field monitors in very large open spaces. Therefore, the monitors would sound fine - we are standing right in front of them.

I didn't realize that you were seeking neumans only as surrounds. Yes, as surrounds, they might be fine. I myself use dipole jbl synthesis side speakers with horns. The directivity is excellent. For rear, I use JBL synthesis 3 full range speakers, with horns selected.. but the neumans might work just fine for rears and/or surrounds, since you like their sound. The 12" woofer of the neumans would be desirable. I do like the idea of having 12" woofers even for rear and surrounds. As discussed in the preceding posts, I would recommend 15" woofers for the front.. Someone recommended the kw 3 way series with 15" and I like that idea - very much! By again, I meant to say that I would caution you that those neumans are near field monitors. What is your seating distance, from the screen?

I would appreciate, if you post your comments, after you get a chance to audition the qsc 3 way 15"
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post #20 of 30 Old 11-04-2012, 08:42 AM
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Again.. Neumann kh120 are near field monitors.
Near field monitors are designed so that the wavefronts of the elements integrate as close as possible to the speaker, allowing them to be listened to at distances as little as three feet without ill effect. That doesn't mean they can't be used at longer distances. OTOH most pro-sound cabs are designed to be listened to at distances over 20 feet. That doesn't mean you can't use pro-sound cabs at less than 20 feet, but it does mean the sweet spot is going to be quite a bit smaller than one might find pleasing.

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post #21 of 30 Old 11-04-2012, 10:32 AM
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Audvid: I really like the QSC K12's. As much as I like my Genelecs I could easily go K series for a full surround system and be more than happy. Do I think the QSC could be better than Bryston EV? Yes I do. I think the total package from QSC is optomized (driver,filters,dsp) all in 1 optomized box. Active vs passive. The EV i'm sure is just as good as anything out there for PA applications but its the domestic room (as well as PA)that QSC seems to work well in also. Never heard Nuemann before but I'm sure they are good too. In the end you have to let your own ears decide what's best for you. Good luck!
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post #22 of 30 Old 11-04-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Near field monitors are designed so that the wavefronts of the elements integrate as close as possible to the speaker, allowing them to be listened to at distances as little as three feet without ill effect. That doesn't mean they can't be used at longer distances. OTOH most pro-sound cabs are designed to be listened to at distances over 20 feet. That doesn't mean you can't use pro-sound cabs at less than 20 feet, but it does mean the sweet spot is going to be quite a bit smaller than one might find pleasing.
It is my opinion and preference that near field monitors are less preferable for 10'+ distance seating in home theaters. For me, they do have ill effects of undue dispersion. Again, its only a personal preference. About 17 years ago, I did not know anything about the near field monitors. I had talked to my friend, who owns a small studio, overseas. I went into his recording theater. They were using Dynaudio studio monitors. They were about $10,000/pair. I wanted to buy them here. It was before internet was big. So, no online research. I spoke to Dynaudio in Chicago I think.. and they strongly suggested that Near field monitors would be unsuitable for my home theater. I didn't now that at that time but now, I do agree with that guy from Dynaudio. In my opinion, they are unsuitable for distances greater than - perhaps 10 ft. On the other hand, the pro horn speakers like QSC can possibly be used as close as 10' but the sweet spot would be reduced (because they can be focused only to a narrow area). The sweet spot would be much wider, if they were at 20'. I am sure you know.. that sweet spot is also known as a "uniform off-axis response".
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post #23 of 30 Old 11-04-2012, 02:20 PM
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On the other hand, the pro horn speakers like QSC can possibly be used as close as 10' but the sweet spot would be reduced (because they can be focused only to a narrow area).
'Focusing' isn't the issue per se, it's the low and HF waves not integrating into a single coherent wave by the time they reach the listening position. The ability to do that at close range is what makes a nearfield monitor suitable for nearfield listening. There are ways of realizing that with pro-sound speakers, primarily coaxial and coincident designs, but the QSC is neither, so anyone considering them or a similar speaker should test them in room first to be sure they sound right.

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post #24 of 30 Old 11-04-2012, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

'Focusing' isn't the issue per se, it's the low and HF waves not integrating into a single coherent wave by the time they reach the listening position. The ability to do that at close range is what makes a nearfield monitor suitable for nearfield listening. There are ways of realizing that with pro-sound speakers, primarily coaxial and coincident designs, but the QSC is neither, so anyone considering them or a similar speaker should test them in room first to be sure they sound right.
I used the word "focus" - in the general term of the optimal listening location and sweet spot and meant it to include the entire audio spectrum. Of course, I would also emphasize the horn loaded speakers have better "focus" due to the inherent nature of the horn's directivity, which for me is desirable. I am not suggesting that everyone would/should like that.

The point being, nearfield speakers are not designed for use to listen at 20' but speakers like QSCs are.. Of course testing speakers would be desirable, when possible, in the room but my point is, given limited time, resources, if you have 20 ft listening, one should consider the QSCs or EVs or such.. rather than nearfield speakers. Having said that, many consider the high end Genelec monitors to be desirable in home theater and given great acoustical treatments, they can probably be appreciated very well.. The advantage of the Genelecs, for example, would be that they would be very musical and much more accurate than QSC horn type..
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post #25 of 30 Old 11-04-2012, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Near field monitors.. That doesn't mean they can't be used at longer distances. .
Of course it does not mean they can't be used at longer distances but is it optimal to do so? I think not very often.. As I wrote in the preceding, certainly, people have used their Genelecs with great results.
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post #26 of 30 Old 11-07-2012, 08:01 AM
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I chose the Yamaha DSR112 over QSC KW122 also.
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post #27 of 30 Old 11-07-2012, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by audvid View Post

Of course it does not mean they can't be used at longer distances but is it optimal to do so?
If it works it works. Being intended for close range use a nearfield may not have the sensitivity and displacement limited power handling necessary for longer distances, but then again, it might. As for their performance attributes, the vast majority of home stereo and HT speakers are no different than 'nearfield monitors'. In more than a few cases manufacturers have produced the same product for both markets with the only difference being cosmetic.

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post #28 of 30 Old 11-07-2012, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

As for their performance attributes, the vast majority of home stereo and HT speakers are no different than 'nearfield monitors'.
This part I agree. With the exception of horn loaded speakers, I would expect most speakers to be akin to near field monitors. Actually, that's the reason I was questioning the Dynaudio pro guy, as to why I should not use their near field monitors at home. He was absolutely against it, even though he was representing dynaudio. I figured, he was smarter than me.. therefore, I didn't buy them.
Anyway, I would still suggest that people not consider the "pro near field monitors" and go for the pro speakers like QSC kw - 15s etc.., which are specifically designed for longer listening distances. That's why I have been suggesting, strongly if possible, to try out the QSCs and not go with the neumans..
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post #29 of 30 Old 11-07-2012, 05:56 PM
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Wow, what a great thread, seriously.
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post #30 of 30 Old 11-07-2012, 11:08 PM
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QSC K12 owner here

My only regret is not buying the KW122, on ebay i used some big dealer in new york (forgot the name) and they are willing to haggle a lot. I think i could have got them for like $1650? ended up buying the K12 from them.

I think the plastic resonates or something, but at least its light weight which is good because i bring a single K12 to parties and its overkill (in a good way).

Really the KW122 are so much better than these "audiophile" speakers that everyone gushes about on this forum. High sensitivity speakers have no down sides, none. They play cleaner at peaks in songs even at low volumes. What good is a $500 tweeter if it distorts as soon as you turn it up? On top of that their constant directivity is just amazing. 70 deg is a good amount for any room, and when you toe them in to cross in front of the listening position the soundstage is enormous. You simply dont need a center channel with these.
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