Amplifiers & Receivers for use with the JTR Speakers - Reviews - Amps, Monos, Separates, Pro/Pre - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 67 Old 11-17-2012, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I am starting a thread on what's the best Amps, Receivers to pair with the JTR Speakers range.

As you all know, the JTRs are extremely powerful (can take up to 1600 watts) and extremely efficient speakers that sounds fantastic for the Hometheater and loses nothing in Music...

So, some people have gone the route of using separates to power them so as to bring out the maximum shine of these speakers. Here, please add your setups with the JTRs and your reviews of them so that future JTR buyers can make a more informed decision on what to use with their own budget in mind.....

This is not truly a showdown of Amps, but rather a discussion on what's everyone's using and how they find them with their JTRs...

Here's what I am considering right now with the following Options (feel free to suggest others). I am a bit budget conscious to speak the least:

1. 3 Crowns XLS 1500 ($379 each). Each bridged mono will deliver 1550 watts to my LCRs (JTR Noesis). The rest will run off my receiver (either onkyo 3010 or 3009). Cost : $1160
2. Maybe just 2 Crown XLS 1500 for LR, but use the Emotiva XPA-100 which delivers 400 watts into the Center ($379). Why this setup? Because I can then compare to see if the Emotiva is better or the Crown on a side by side showdown. As per specs, the Emotiva will have a slightly better noise to signal ratio but lack the 1550 watts. But the Center may not need all the 1550 watts. 400 watts of clean power may be all that's required for dialoque. Cost $1160 (same as above).
3. I also briefly looked at the Behringer EP 4000 which after some searching, found some disappointing reviews so am not considering it now.
4. Cheaper options would be: The Emotiva XPA-5 which will give you 5x300 watts for a total of $769 (but then this would not much more power than my Onkyo can deliver.. i think it can easily deliver 160-200 watts per channel at 4 ohms in a 240v outlet.
5. More expensive option would be the Emotiva XPR-5, which delivers a whopping 5x600watts for a total of $1699 (quite a bit more than the first two options).

Note: all the Watts are calculated for 4 ohm speakers.

ICEPower Options

I have also looked at the highly recommended ICEPower Class D amps like the Wyred 4 Sound and the D-Sonics. Most of the reasons given were because these run cool and silent. As for sound quality, unless someone have actually compared the Crowns vs these, I am gong to assume they are the same, with the Crown giving more power. They are both class Ds.... Also, from some reviewers on the Crowns, they too run pretty silent and the fans hardly turns on so it's really a non-issue with the noise as well.


Can someone also tell us more about what THD, SNRs, etc mean in the AMP and what's the ratings that is desirable for the JTR Speakers? I mean, for instance, an amp may say SNR at 1 watt > 93, full power >117, what does that mean and at what levels will you start to get annoying hissing sounds from the JTRs?? And what about THDs??? 0.1%? 0.05%, do they make much difference in real life hearing? Reason I asked is because the JTRs are hightly sensitive and at some point some amps with not as good SNR may not be suitable

Feel free to discuss other things needed for JTRs like, what sort of AMP sockets needed for the gears, do we need 20A power points with certain setups? for instance, the Orbit Shifters puts out 7200 wats peak.. do we need to run that off a separate 20 or even 30A power point???? And if you're using a lot of Amplification for all speakers??
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post #2 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 05:31 AM
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Whatever amp you decide try to keep it all the same. Try not to mix brands. The Onkyo 3010 is probably one of the most powerful AVR out there so powering The 4 surrounds is an excellent idea. If you take your time and buy things peice by peice in the end you will have the system you want. Start with 2 Crown XLS 1500 . 1 in stereo for the L & R the other brigded mono to the center while having The 3010 powering the 4 SS RS.
This will be a great start and give you and idea of where to go next. You may be quite content with this configuration and if you want more you can purchase more XLS 1500/2500 as you feel need. Slow and steady will get you where you want without regret and wasted money. If you decide on Emotiva go XPR-5 and if you want later throw in an XPA-2. My understanding is that they will eventually have a XPR-2.
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post #3 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Whatever amp you decide try to keep it all the same. Try not to mix brands. The Onkyo 3010 is probably one of the most powerful AVR out there so powering The 4 surrounds is an excellent idea. If you take your time and buy things peice by peice in the end you will have the system you want. Start with 2 Crown XLS 1500 . 1 in stereo for the L & R the other brigded mono to the center while having The 3010 powering the 4 SS RS.
This will be a great start and give you and idea of where to go next. You may be quite content with this configuration and if you want more you can purchase more XLS 1500/2500 as you feel need. Slow and steady will get you where you want without regret and wasted money. If you decide on Emotiva go XPR-5 and if you want later throw in an XPA-2. My understanding is that they will eventually have a XPR-2.
Chris

Althought that's a great idea, I can't do piece by piece because I don't live in the US.. .i need to get everything together in one place, like my friend's house, the JTR speakers, any amps, screens, etc, etc, then ship them off by ship altogether... otherwise the cost will be exorbitant... the shipping alone for each amp will be more than the amp itself... The reason, I am thinking of trying out the emotiva mono is because it actually has a better SNR than the XPR-5, and if i only need one for center, it may work out well... also gives me a chance to see which i liked better, the crown or emotiva.. if i should like the emotiva a lot more, later, when i start upgrading i'll know what i want...
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post #4 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 08:17 AM
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I am pretty firmly in the "an amp is an amp" group. I think that for Home Theater more power is a very good thing but the type of amp used is relatively unimportant. THD and SNR are important measurements but with most commercial products, these will be inaudible for all except those who want to hear them ... IMHO wink.gif

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post #5 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I am pretty firmly in the "an amp is an amp" group. I think that for Home Theater more power is a very good thing but the type of amp used is relatively unimportant. THD and SNR are important measurements but with most commercial products, these will be inaudible for all except those who want to hear them ... IMHO wink.gif

I am starting to lean this way... though I keep getting suckered back into the marketing hype of 'hi-fidelity' amps.. like the emotiva (sounds really good when you read their writeups)... the XPR 5 looks like a great bargain for such a high end amp delivering 600 watts into 5 channels.. with a huge 3.2 K VA power supply, you can be sure you're getting the punch you'll need.

But then, the Crowns are trusted and seems to have tons of great reviews and cost a fraction of the cost and delivers even more power... For $1700, i can get 4 pieces of Crown XLS each delivering a whopping 1550 watts... that might actually provide greater bandwidth in case a difficult movie scene demands it... and we all know the JTRs can take it! haha.. just make sure i don't accidentally pair the amps up with the SHO 10s...
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post #6 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I am pretty firmly in the "an amp is an amp" group. I think that for Home Theater more power is a very good thing but the type of amp used is relatively unimportant. THD and SNR are important measurements but with most commercial products, these will be inaudible for all except those who want to hear them ... IMHO wink.gif
but an amp isn't just an amp! the hiss i got with some amps absolutely drove me crazy! had the xpa-3, xpa-5 and mps-1 and every single one of the emotiva products would hiss.
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post #7 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 10:41 AM
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You want to match the power, get a lab gruppen FP10Q. 4 channels of huge power and a small chassis.
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post #8 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 10:56 AM
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I finally settled on the Sunfire TGA-7401 to power my triple 12x l/r and single 8x center (soon to have two more single 8x for surround). I looked closely at the Electrovoice CPS 8.5 which is 8x500 watts, Emotiva xpa-5, and the Sunfire Tga-7401. I ultimately went with the Sunfire due to the ease of hookup (Electrovoice is Phoenix blocks) and I like the 7 channels for future use.

Even at moderate levels (90-95db), the sound is so much more enjoyable (and I enjoyed the hell out of them already!). Effortless.

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post #9 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 12:37 PM
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I'm using three channels of an XPA5 for three Triple 8 LP's. I can hear a hiss with my ear to the speaker at -20db, and at the listening position only above reference and with no material playing. I sit about 16-18 ft from the fronts.

I'm happy enough with the results.
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post #10 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 12:58 PM
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I'm powering my L, R, & C Quintuples and Front Wide T8's with Sunfire Grand Signature 5 channel amp @ 810 wpc. My L & R, Rear Surrounds T8's powered by another Sunfire Grand 5 channel amp @ 400 wpc. This is more than enough output for any movie in my HT room.
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post #11 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I'm powering my L, R, & C Quintuples and Front Wide T8's with Sunfire Grand Signature 5 channel amp @ 810 wpc. My L & R, Rear Surrounds T8's powered by another Sunfire Grand 5 channel amp @ 400 wpc. This is more than enough output for any movie in my HT room.

How much do these amps cost?
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post #12 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 01:27 PM
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but an amp isn't just an amp! the hiss i got with some amps absolutely drove me crazy! had the xpa-3, xpa-5 and mps-1 and every single one of the emotiva products would hiss.

From my experience this is mostly an issue with amps that are expecting low impedance speakers and no gain control. My W4S amps had a hiss that would not go away until I used cheater plugs on the power cords. The Sunfire amp that preceded the W4S did not have this issue.

That issue is separate from the discernible SQ debate and that is the one where I remain skeptical. smile.gif

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post #13 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 01:34 PM
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How much do these amps cost?

New they are not a bargain but you can find them used (Audiogon/Ebay) for a good price. I purchased a couple of them that way with good results but it might be a little risky in your situation (with the Oceans and all tongue.gifwink.gif).

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post #14 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 02:13 PM
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but an amp isn't just an amp! the hiss i got with some amps absolutely drove me crazy! had the xpa-3, xpa-5 and mps-1 and every single one of the emotiva products would hiss.

The two things that are most important when driving a high-efficiency speaker in a domestic living room are low self-noise, and proper setup (gain structure set to minimize noise throughout the chain). AVR's are often quite low in self-noise, and minimize external noise simply because everything is on one PS. As for external amps, I have a simple test to determine if an amp is good enough for me: I take a cheap and crappy but very efficient horn tweeter (Eminence APT-50 on one of their horns) and hook it up to the outputs. I hook up my iPhone to the input with a mini-to-RCA cable. Then I see how close the tweeter has to be for noise to be audible. The very best amps in this test have been Anthem Statement, Bryston, McIntosh...and the Sherwood Newcastle A-965.

The last amp to fail my test was a Icepower-based unit from Rotel.

I can't imagine why anyone would need anything more than the cheapest AVR offers, power-wise, for such efficient speakers in a domestic living room. (For that point fleshed out more generally, see here and to some degree here.)

But you're right, self-noise is one of the two big issues with efficient speakers. (The other is setting one's gain structure for the lowest possible noise.)

If you look at it reasonably, what's actually optimal for a very efficient speaker used in a domestic living room is probably a 20-60W chip amp. Chipamps tend to have two performance traits that are well-suited to high efficiency speakers: low self-noise, and very low crossover distortion. Often, very reasonably-priced receivers have those exact amp types, and essentially perfect performance into good high efficiency speakers (their chipamps often roll off a bit early, but in a system with bass management, or blended multisubs, it doesn't matter if the mains amp is 3dB down at 30Hz.). But chip amps don't look as impressive as a giant hulking mass of amp in the room.
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I finally settled on the Sunfire TGA-7401 to power my triple 12x l/r and single 8x center (soon to have two more single 8x for surround). I looked closely at the Electrovoice CPS 8.5 which is 8x500 watts, Emotiva xpa-5, and the Sunfire Tga-7401. I ultimately went with the Sunfire due to the ease of hookup (Electrovoice is Phoenix blocks) and I like the 7 channels for future use.

In theory, the Class G Sunfire should have much higher crossover distortion than the EV amp. But if it's not audible, who cares? It's a nice amp in terms of size and efficiency. And unlike the EV amp (which I adore as a sub amp) it has no fans. Also, unlike too many amp makers, Sunfire is responsible enough to get their amps independently safety-tested by an OSHA-approved NRTL. I would never consider a non-NRTL approved amp.

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post #15 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 05:00 PM
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^^^ "self-noise" ... I love the little pearls that are dispensed here at the science forum. smile.gif

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post #16 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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"I can't imagine why anyone would need anything more than the cheapest AVR offers, power-wise, for such efficient speakers in a domestic living room. (For that point fleshed out more generally, see here and to some degree here.)"

Not to say I disagree... but read this from another member. It does make a lot of sense (perhaps SPL is not the only variable here):
Quote:
One word: transients!

How many have used a simple oscilloscope (with high bandwidth) to observe an audio signal?

Most audiophile thinking is stuck on the concept of average or RMS power requirements. Real life and real music (using the dynamic range of a live, uncompressed performance as the standard for discussion) is very spiky and unpredictable in levels.

Proper handling of transients requires sufficient headroom! ANY hard clipping or even soft clipping from an inadequate slew rate destroys the dynamics and timbre in short order and takes the ease out of the listening experience. Our ear/brain systems can be easily fatigued by simply placing a low pass filter in the signal path, forcing the brain to try to compensate by "calculating" the missing upper harmonics.

Here is another factor: how dynamic or compressed is the source?

The goal of audio engineering is to reproduce, as closely as possible, the source as captured. That is a clear goal when recording natural acoustic sounds, classical music, jazz, folk etc., which our ear/brains have specifically evolved to process and for which we have massive experience for comparison.

However, when the source is synthetic, as in electonica and the musical genres dependent on electronic processing, the standard can become arbitrary. When the majority of audio sources are A) artificial electronic creations and B) consist of compressed dynamics/transients, the standard for reproduction reduces to: which system flatters the source, in the ear of the beholder!

Also, as pop music has been mastered louder and louder, in order to catch the ear's attention when played through low fidelity sources, there is a more restricted dynamic range inherent in the source. Playing a source such as this through a system with inadequate headroom, MAY not be as noticeable because the system has less dynamic range to reproduce from the source.

As the listening level increases toward reference, going up the power doubling curve from a higher initial (average) level, requires more doubling, with transient levels possibly requiring 10 times the power over the average.

Discarding the need to justify compromising due to budget, what remains is a practical general principle that supplying sufficient power to the speaker to avoid ANY clipping distortion under all conceivable operating conditions, should be the foundation for powering audio systems. Even if that clipping is hard to identify and of short enough duration that the drivers are not immediately degraded, the negative effect on the sonic illusion is real and discernible.

High efficiency speakers at a given SPL start lower on the power doubling curve but clean speakers also encourage louder levels since they sound effortless!

While most home theaters may not require all of the wattage which Jeff specifies in his literature to reach reference levels, with the bounty of dedicated power amplifiers on the market, why cripple your quality experience with designed-to-minimal-cost receiver amplifiers?

Those claiming that they can't hear the differences: our perceptions of audio and video can be trained.... or not.

Some people never perceived the rainbow effect inherent in single-chip DLP projectors until the unfortunate day when someone showed them how to see it! As a result, many became candidates for different projector technologies.

Similarly, as the quality of your listening room improves with masking, time smearing, room resonances removed, your ear begins to unravel the sonic illusion, perceiving layers previously unheard.


Now, personally, I have no clue. I am willing to try out separate amps for LCR vs just powering them from my Onkyo 3010 receiver and see for myself if there really is an audible difference.

If anyone who has tried running the JTRs direct from their receivers then had a chance to add amps, please let us know if there truly is a significant difference. I am not sure i came about anyone doing such a test.
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post #17 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 06:11 PM
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^^^ "self-noise" ... I love the little pearls that are dispensed here at the science forum. smile.gif

What exactly do you find objectionable about the term "self-noise"? Some amps are inherently noisy. Only someone utterly without experience would deny that! If an amp makes a "fuzz" kind of sound with speakers connected but no source, that's its self-noise.

It's useful for someone with an analytic mind to distinguish between noise from the amp (self-noise) and noise passed down the chain because of problems such as poorly optimized gain structure. For someone who just like to look at big gear, it doesn't matter.
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"I can't imagine why anyone would need anything more than the cheapest AVR offers, power-wise, for such efficient speakers in a domestic living room. (For that point fleshed out more generally, see here and to some degree here.)"

Not to say I disagree... but read this from another member. It does make a lot of sense (perhaps SPL is not the only variable here):
Quote:
One word: transients!

Two words: maximum level.

Modern audio systems set an absolute ceiling on the signal level. That level is 0dBFS from the digital source. Literally nothing can be encoded louder than 0dBFS. So one can know with certainty exactly what the maximum peaks of any given recording will be by finding the peak level (-xdBFS) of that recording. When people listen at "cinema reference," the absolute maximum possible level of any transient signal is 105dB in the main channels and 115dB in the LFE channel. Likewise, if one is listening through calibrated gear, then -10dB on the volume knob means 95dB max mains peaks and 105dB max LFE peaks. If one's speakers are 95dB/W/m sensitive, then in a huge and fairly absorbent room one might need 16dBW to hit those peaks at the listening position. (The numbers that people often quote, from calculator's like Crown's are only valid outdoors or in anechoic chambers. But most people, sadly, don't think enough to realize that.)

What is 16dBW? A massive 40W. And that's peak power, so we're actually talking about a 20-30W power requirement.

FWIW, I once did a level-matched listening test between my old Meridian 551 integrated amp (~60W/ch/8Ω) and my old Adcom GFA-5800 (>300W/ch/8Ω), powered from the 551's preouts, driving two Tannoy System 12DMTII's (96dB/W/m). With levels matched (using a voltmeter and a 0dBFS 1kHz sine wave on the outputs), there was no absolutely no difference in perceived dynamics (or anything else) on material like Shostakovich 7 at front-center hall levels. Everyone should do a test like that (with proper level matching, otherwise it's just a waste of time; most people are too sloppy or lazy to actually think through the test and realize that without level matching it is a test completely without merit). It's one thing to intellectually understand reality. It's quite another to experience it oneself and have those nagging doubts fully excised from one's mind.

Where power is actually needed is in the subwoofers, because small cabinets asked to go low are very inefficient. (An I-B type install doesn't need much power to get loud. Most people think they "need" lots of power for I-B's simply because they've set their gain structure poorly. And, to be sure, with a lot of power one needn't spend much time optimizing gain structure on subs in very large "cabinets." Power is cheap, and with lots of power comes big fudge factor in that regard.)

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post #18 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 06:37 PM
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What exactly do you find objectionable about the term "self-noise"? Some amps are inherently noisy. Only someone utterly without experience would deny that! If an amp makes a "fuzz" kind of sound with speakers connected but no source, that's its self-noise.

Actually, I was serious and liked the term ... confused.gif

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post #19 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

What exactly do you find objectionable about the term "self-noise"? Some amps are inherently noisy. Only someone utterly without experience would deny that! If an amp makes a "fuzz" kind of sound with speakers connected but no source, that's its self-noise.

Actually, I was serious and liked the term ... confused.gif

Ah. Sorry about the misinterpretation of your smiley. smile.gif

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post #20 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 08:54 PM
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Two words: maximum level.
Modern audio systems set an absolute ceiling on the signal level. That level is 0dBFS from the digital source. Literally nothing can be encoded louder than 0dBFS. So one can know with certainty exactly what the maximum peaks of any given recording will be by finding the peak level (-xdBFS) of that recording. When people listen at "cinema reference," the absolute maximum possible level of any transient signal is 105dB in the main channels and 115dB in the LFE channel. Likewise, if one is listening through calibrated gear, then -10dB on the volume knob means 95dB max mains peaks and 105dB max LFE peaks. If one's speakers are 95dB/W/m sensitive, then in a huge and fairly absorbent room one might need 16dBW to hit those peaks at the listening position. (The numbers that people often quote, from calculator's like Crown's are only valid outdoors or in anechoic chambers. But most people, sadly, don't think enough to realize that.)
What is 16dBW? A massive 40W. And that's peak power, so we're actually talking about a 20-30W power requirement.
You start your post with 2 words: "Maximum Level." Then you proceed to calculate the power requirements at 10 dB BELOW that maximum level. rolleyes.gif

Recalculate the power requirements for 0 dBFS, (or for MVC 0.) Your paltry 40 watts suddenly becomes 400 watts. Then recalculate for 0... with a paltry 3 dB of headroom. Now you need 800 watts!.

The other thing you don't take into consideration is room size and listening distance. In a large, lossy, open room, the SPL loss over distance is considerable and can add considerably to the power requirements.
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I can't imagine why anyone would need anything more than the cheapest AVR offers, power-wise, for such efficient speakers in a domestic living room.
If you only want -10 MVC, you *might* have a point. rolleyes.gif

However, I seriously doubt anyone considering these speakers would want to limit himself to -10 MVC! In fact, I have no doubt that most people interested in these speakers are mostly interested in their dynamic output capability. In that respect, even though these speakers are very high sensitivity, there is NO WAY I would ever advise someone to power them with a "cheap AVR."
eek.gif

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post #21 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 09:22 PM
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I'm just powering mine (did I just say "mine"eek.gif) with a Pioneer Elite right now and the Noesis' sound is so beautiful and effortless. I can't imagine needing a separate amp, but that said I would love to do a blind test sometime and would have no problem being proven wrong.
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post #22 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 09:25 PM
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Also, earlier tonight Archaea cranked his Onkyo up to 2.5 over reference on a couple scenes with the Noesis while I was over there and no harshness - just clean sound.
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post #23 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Also, earlier tonight Archaea cranked his Onkyo up to 2.5 over reference on a couple scenes with the Noesis while I was over there and no harshness - just clean sound.

Great stuff carp... if all it takes is an onkyo, then maybe I ought to save a couple thousands on external amps... thanks for the great reviews earlier as well on the Noesis.. I love to hear reviews on speakers i just bought.. hehe... wink.gif especially glowing ones.. makes me impatient in getting mine.
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post #24 of 67 Old 11-18-2012, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I wonder what Jeff would recommend to use with his speakers... though, I think he'll stay mum on the subject.. wink.gif
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post #25 of 67 Old 11-19-2012, 05:03 AM
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I wonder what Jeff would recommend to use with his speakers... though, I think he'll stay mum on the subject.. wink.gif
Straight from builder/designers mouth is the best. He would have so much information he could share with us all if it were not for the "Right Fighters" on here. There are Alot of very knowledgable individuals that keep things to thier self simply becuase of the "Bad Apples" causing controversy (our loss). Notice your above quote from RoboBob. He has been a member for over 11+ years and has less than 250 posts when he speaks we should listen.Does not mean you have to agree. He also took the high road on both sides.
Live and let Live especially when it comes to audio. I do not see a whole lot of Quality Big amp owners coming on here saying it makes no difference but I do see the opposite.
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post #26 of 67 Old 11-19-2012, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Straight from builder/designers mouth is the best. He would have so much information he could share with us all if it were not for the "Right Fighters" on here. There are Alot of very knowledgable individuals that keep things to thier self simply becuase of the "Bad Apples" causing controversy (our loss). Notice your above quote from RoboBob. He has been a member for over 11+ years and has less than 250 posts when he speaks we should listen.Does not mean you have to agree. He also took the high road on both sides.
Live and let Live especially when it comes to audio. I do not see a whole lot of Quality Big amp owners coming on here saying it makes no difference but I do see the opposite.
Big rooms need big everything !!! (general rule of thumb)
Chris
Buying an amp should not have to be this confusing !!
It should be FUN !!!

That's true... I don't quite mind people quibbling or debating.. but not personal attacks as that would not add to anyone's knowledgebase... for someone like me who can only make judgements on what to buy base on other's experiences, the more people reviewing their own amps, speakers, the better. IT's always subjective, but when a lot of debates goes around (in a nice way), you can usually slowly pick up the winners... like I did with the JTRs.. note, I still haven't heard them yet, but I am pretty confident they'll be great because of all the glowing reviews and even though there are the few who hated them, you can tell they were not set up correctly, or some other reasons...

As with AMPS... I am sort of in the camp that all amps based on specs are the same.. but at this point, I still don't quite understand the specs themselves.

I think ALL amps don't sound the same even if they spot the same specs because most of them probably rate things differently. Plus there are tons of variables, like can this amp put out the rated power, across every frequency, and across difficult tracks without losing a beat?? Or, does it introduce hissing sounds? Etc... so, everything can degrade the quality. I am currently looking for the biggest bang for the buck, but still an amp that does not introduce hissing sounds, or sounds bad, period...

So, feel free to discuss amps for the JTRs.. this is a bit special, because unlike most so-called high end audiophile speakers, the JTRs are extremely efficient, so it can certainly put out a lot of hissing sounds if the amp is not clean...
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post #27 of 67 Old 11-19-2012, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Straight from builder/designers mouth is the best. He would have so much information he could share with us all if it were not for the "Right Fighters" on here. There are Alot of very knowledgable individuals that keep things to thier self simply becuase of the "Bad Apples" causing controversy (our loss). Notice your above quote from RoboBob. He has been a member for over 11+ years and has less than 250 posts when he speaks we should listen.Does not mean you have to agree. He also took the high road on both sides.
Live and let Live especially when it comes to audio. I do not see a whole lot of Quality Big amp owners coming on here saying it makes no difference but I do see the opposite.
Big rooms need big everything !!! (general rule of thumb)
Chris
Buying an amp should not have to be this confusing !!
It should be FUN !!!

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm open to the idea of an amp making a difference vs an avr at high spl's it's just that it's hard to imagine these speakers sounding any better since they already sound so effortless.
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post #28 of 67 Old 11-19-2012, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Great stuff carp... if all it takes is an onkyo, then maybe I ought to save a couple thousands on external amps... thanks for the great reviews earlier as well on the Noesis.. I love to hear reviews on speakers i just bought.. hehe... wink.gif especially glowing ones.. makes me impatient in getting mine.

Thanks, I completely understand your impatience. I don't want these to ever leave my room. biggrin.gif
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post #29 of 67 Old 11-19-2012, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

[You start your post with 2 words: "Maximum Level." Then you proceed to calculate the power requirements at 10 dB BELOW that maximum level. rolleyes.gif

Recalculate the power requirements for 0 dBFS, (or for MVC 0.) Your paltry 40 watts suddenly becomes 400 watts. Then recalculate for 0... with a paltry 3 dB of headroom. Now you need 800 watts!.

The other thing you don't take into consideration is room size and listening distance. In a large, lossy, open room, the SPL loss over distance is considerable and can add considerably to the power requirements.
Quote:
I can't imagine why anyone would need anything more than the cheapest AVR offers, power-wise, for such efficient speakers in a domestic living room.
If you only want -10 MVC, you *might* have a point. rolleyes.gif

However, I seriously doubt anyone considering these speakers would want to limit himself to -10 MVC! In fact, I have no doubt that most people interested in these speakers are mostly interested in their dynamic output capability. In that respect, even though these speakers are very high sensitivity, there is NO WAY I would ever advise someone to power them with a "cheap AVR."
eek.gif

Craig

Craig,

Please check your math, and read more carefully.

My calculations were for reproducing "cinema reference" peak SPL in the mains channels. I did state (correctly, IME) that most people don't actually listen at cinema reference, but some value below that. Nonetheless, I consider "cinema reference" the most reasonable place to do the calculations nonetheless, because it closely corresponds to peak SPL of a good orchestra playing something like Mahler 8 when heard from a front-mid hall seating position.

95dB/W/m speakers + 16dBW amp = 111dB/1m, assuming de minimis dynamic compression. (Not an unreasonable assumption, given the multiple large voicecoils and relatively low amount of power. If you want to assume 3dB of thermal compression, that doesn't materially change the end result.) "Cinema reference" is 105dB peak in the main channels. If one for whatever reason regularly listens at above cinema reference, it's easy enough to use the above math but plug in a higher peak value.

You're further assuming with your "room size and listening distance" that we're talking about outdoors or in an anechoic chamber. I don't speak from calculators (put on websites of people who want to sell you big amps!), but from experience. Play a 1kHz tone on a speaker outdoors and measure the SPL. (It can be any speaker, really, and any cheap small amp.) Now put that speaker in your listening room at a mains position, and play the same tone with the amp at the same level. Measure the SPL. (Again, since we're doing relative measurements, any old SPL meter will suffice. Even a phone app.) Compare first the level at 1m to the outdoor reading, then in a line to the listening position and see how much the level actually falls in room. You will then learn, as I have, that the 3dB falloff with doubling of distance rule so often quoted only applies outdoors and to anechoic chambers. (Perhaps a room that is "treated" by over-appliation of various room-mutilation products to be so lifeless-sounding that it's a chore to listen to music in that room may come close to the 3dB falloff rule. But not normal rooms.)

I'm talking, you know, actual science here. Not speculative blather such as the material I've quoted above.

Lastly, one doesn't need to arbitrarily add 3dB "headroom" when one's already talking about peak signal values. A relatively elementary point I did not feel needed to be spelled out. But given your post, I guess I overestimated the knowledge base of some readers.

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post #30 of 67 Old 11-19-2012, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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All the science and numbers aside (I still think when people do numbers, there may be missing variables).

I am more interested in anyone having experienced first hand comparing using the JTRs with just a receiver (state receiver brand/name, etc), then added amps and then are there significant difference in terms of dynamics, jump out of seat impacts, etc... I have so far only heard people say 'I have this amp and it sounds great, or I have this receiver, and it sounds great', but no direct comparison from someone who actually first used an amp, then upgraded...

Anyways, just to give you an idea of what I am talking about.. I have had my Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 speakers for 10 years now, and powering them with my Marantz receiver (at the time I bought the Marantz, it cost me a pretty penny and was supposed to be better than all the other brand names available).... I was quite happy with the setup and if anyone asked me, I would tell them they sound excellent. Then just a few months back, my friend bought an Onkyo 709 (a very entry level onkyo), and he tested it out with my speakers.. and suddenly my entire room lit up with new dynamics, and suddently everything became clearer and more effortless and the soundstage seems far, far bigger.. this is NOT my imagination... both my friend and I experienced it... both have zero expectations.. in fact, the expectations would be the Onkyo would perform worse as it's far cheaper than my marantz... but in fact, blew the marantz out of the water.. and i WILL take any bets on blind tests on this one because it truly is night and day..

Then I told the sales guy about it (the one who sold me the whole setup about 8 years ago).. he said he's not surprised as amplifiers, even entry level ones today have far more juice to them.. the Wharfedale needs lots of power and the Onkyo puts out i think 130 watts per channel and i think my old marantz only puts out 80 or 100, not sure which...

So, the moral of the story is, the added wattage did make a huge difference... even coming from a far, far cheaper receiver.. my marantz cost at least twice the onkyo.
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