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post #1 of 46 Old 12-09-2012, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello All,

I currently have an old Mirage mcc-r center channel paired with Pardigm Studio 60 v5 fronts which I purchased about a year ago. The Mirage is from an old setup and I recently been noticing when watching moves that the center doesn't sound great. It seems more dead center than covering the whole width of the sound stage (if that makes sense) and sometimes the dialog and action scenes are quiet/has no impact. I've already increased the output level about 2db more but it still doesn't sound right.

I'm thinking of upgrading the center to something bigger but would this solve my problem? I was looking at the Studio centers but unfortunately the size is too big for the space it will sit in. I know it's ideal to have a matching front sound stage but it looks like I will have to look at another company. The Klipsch rc-52ii have pretty good reviews and would fit into the space. Would not having matched fronts really be that bad?

Any recommendations would be appreciated.

tia
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post #2 of 46 Old 12-09-2012, 10:47 PM
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Not having a matching LCR can be pretty bad when there's a big difference between the speakers. Your mirage, and that Klipsch would both fit that category. I dont know what kind of space you're dealing with, but something like this, while not an exact match, will be much closer to what you need

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Paradigm-CC-190-v-6-center-channel-speaker-in-cherry-factory-auth-closeout-/110979820421?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item19d6e9ab85

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Paradigm-CC-190-V-6-Center-Channel-Speaker-Black-Limited-Supply-/251151575589?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item3a79ccea25
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post #3 of 46 Old 12-09-2012, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Jay.

As you can see below, that is the stand I am using for my 65vt30. There is only room for a height of 7". That's why I thought I could use the rc-52ii.



That cc-190 would definitely fit in that spot.

Is there really some "science" behind why matching LCR is necessary?
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post #4 of 46 Old 12-09-2012, 11:15 PM
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Voices, and effects can pan directly in front of you across the LCR. You will immediately notice the change in timbre from completely different speakers. Sound that's in front of you is perceived the same by your ears, where as sound that's behind you, as from surrounds is perceived differently which is why they're not as important.
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post #5 of 46 Old 12-09-2012, 11:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I was just thinking...does it matter if the cc is above or below the tv? I can maybe fabricate something above the tv that would hold the weight of a matching cc.
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post #6 of 46 Old 12-09-2012, 11:40 PM
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Not really. You want to have it flipped so the tweeter is on bottom if above the tv, and either way you want to angle it to bring things closer on axis (tweeter aimed at listening height). You can make either work
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post #7 of 46 Old 12-10-2012, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, did some more digging around and reading and it seems that bookshelf speakers are sometimes used as a CC. But since they are usually sold in pairs would it be possible to hook up two Studio 20 speakers (the mid-bass/bass, tweeter are the same as the Studio 60s) and place one on each side of the tv as CC speakers?

Oh, and I'm using a Denon AVR-3312CI to power everything.
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post #8 of 46 Old 12-10-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcc View Post

Ok, did some more digging around and reading and it seems that bookshelf speakers are sometimes used as a CC. But since they are usually sold in pairs would it be possible to hook up two Studio 20 speakers (the mid-bass/bass, tweeter are the same as the Studio 60s) and place one on each side of the tv as CC speakers?
Oh, and I'm using a Denon AVR-3312CI to power everything.

That wont work... If you want to do something like that just dont use a center at all, your L/R will receive all the center info and stereo imaging takes over.
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post #9 of 46 Old 12-10-2012, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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What about just using one bookshelf speaker as a cc since it (studio 20) would match the 60s pretty well.
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post #10 of 46 Old 12-10-2012, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcc View Post

What about just using one bookshelf speaker as a cc since it (studio 20) would match the 60s pretty well.

I use 3 Studio60s as L/C/R.  Earlier, I tried a Studio20 in the center and that convinced me to get the 3rd Studio60.


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post #11 of 46 Old 12-10-2012, 07:17 PM
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Using a single studio 20 isn't a bad idea. You're going to want the speaker to be vertical though, not layed on its side.
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post #12 of 46 Old 12-10-2012, 07:46 PM
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Just out of curiosity: have you tried disabling the center and running a phantom center on the AVR. For a lot of us, in many rooms, that works very well... mileage will vary based on the room.

The nice thing about trying this is it is free and takes very little time. If you don't like it: nothing lost.
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post #13 of 46 Old 12-10-2012, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I've experimented with the phantom cc and found that it didn't give me a favorable sound stage.

@kal: Are you using a flat screen or AT screen with the 3rd 60?

@Jay: yup for sure. Don't want to orient it a way it wasn't ment to be smile.gif

I'm starting to consider buying a stand and placing a cc-690 in front of the whole stand. Although it'll be a bit of a pita since it will block some components.
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post #14 of 46 Old 12-10-2012, 08:52 PM
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This is one of the reasons I wish they still made the 40. It almost seems to beg to be a center with 60s.
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post #15 of 46 Old 12-10-2012, 08:54 PM
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Sounds like your mains might need to be repositioned a bit (you sure they're wired properly?). The comment about lifeless soundstage from the op, and not getting good stereo imaging with a phantom center says something is up with your L/R.
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post #16 of 46 Old 12-11-2012, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Sounds like your mains might need to be repositioned a bit (you sure they're wired properly?). The comment about lifeless soundstage from the op, and not getting good stereo imaging with a phantom center says something is up with your L/R.
The mains are connected correctly. I guess I shouldn't have said sound stage but what I meant was that I don't feel that there's enough crispness in dialog that I get with a dedicated cc.

I went back and experimented again with a few movies (Dark Knight Rises and Act Of Valor) and find that when there's dialog and action sequences (explosions/etc) happening at the same time, using the current setup I can tell that the sound is coming from the cc and doesn't feel as wide (if that makes sense) and it all gets muddled and doesn't sound seemless. I'm thinking that the drivers of the cc are quite small and can't handle the extra oomph that's why the thought of getting something as a replacement. In phantom mode the sound stage is better but as I mentioned the crispness isn't there.
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post #17 of 46 Old 12-11-2012, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcc View Post
@kal: Are you using a flat screen or AT screen with the 3rd 60?
 

Flat screen just above the speaker top.


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post #18 of 46 Old 12-12-2012, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, tell me if this can work (I'm thinking out of the box now lol). If I add another AVR and only hook up the audio portion from my blu-ray player and PS3 via RCA cables and use one Studio 20 as a cc hooked up and place it on one side of the tv and the other Studio 20 hooked up to my Denon AVR and place it on the other side of my tv.

Yes/no??? smile.gif
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post #19 of 46 Old 12-12-2012, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcc View Post

Ok, tell me if this can work (I'm thinking out of the box now lol). If I add another AVR and only hook up the audio portion from my blu-ray player and PS3 via RCA cables and use one Studio 20 as a cc hooked up and place it on one side of the tv and the other Studio 20 hooked up to my Denon AVR and place it on the other side of my tv.
Yes/no??? smile.gif

no

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post #20 of 46 Old 12-12-2012, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Can you elaborate a bit on that (why it won't work)?
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post #21 of 46 Old 12-13-2012, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcc View Post

Can you elaborate a bit on that (why it won't work)?

Have you read any of the discussions about the cancellation lobing that can happen with M-T-M centre speakers?

In some cases it can be minimized by having the two mids close to each other (it has to do with the wavelengths of cancelling sounds)...

...you are suggesting to mids and two tweeters playing the identical noises a few feet apart - the lobing would be terrible (unless I'm totally misunderstanding the science).

One speaker, above or below the screen (behind if you have acoustically transparent), is the way to go.

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post #22 of 46 Old 12-13-2012, 09:02 AM
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Your best option is to get one of the Paradigm speakers mentioned above and figure out how to place it. You should have a single speaker with the same drivers as your left and right or you will notice a difference.

My cabinet isn't wide enough for my incoming center (should arrive today), but I'm building a custom riser from a couple prefabricated shelves from home depot, cutting one to be the sides and partial back. I'll place my center channel under it and the tv on top.
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post #23 of 46 Old 12-13-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the clarification rick.

I was thinking about doing the same thing (build a riser). But the added weight of that, the speaker and the tv is coming close to the max weight recommended for the shelf.
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post #24 of 46 Old 12-13-2012, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks for the clarification rick.
I was thinking about doing the same thing (build a riser). But the added weight of that, the speaker and the tv is coming close to the max weight recommended for the shelf.

It'll be tricky finding a good solution.

Myself, I would get a new stand...

...choose the TV and speakers you want, then get (or build) a stand that fits them. But that's me smile.gif

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post #25 of 46 Old 12-13-2012, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I wish that was a feasible option but I bought the stand last year specifically for the tv. Plus the wife would kill me smile.gif
This is my current setup.


I was thinking about fabricating some sort of stand to put the cc above the tv or if it comes down to it, placing the new cc on its own stand infront of the current stand where the cc is now.
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post #26 of 46 Old 12-13-2012, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
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I wish that was a feasible option but I bought the stand last year specifically for the tv.

Gorgeous stand, for a TV...

...too bad it doesn't work for a centre channel deserving of a TV that would go on it.

To be effective the top shelf needs to be taller - you should contact the manufacturer and suggest they fix their "defective product". Yeah, I know - not feasible. Absolutely true, but not a feasible solution.
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Plus the wife would kill me smile.gif

Side effect of TV->stand->speakers purchase order, instead of TV + speakers->stand.
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This is my current setup.

Gorgeous looking - but only functional with a tiny centre speaker - sigh.
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I was thinking about fabricating some sort of stand to put the cc above the tv

This may end up being the only way you get a decent centre in there - because you need one that timbre matches your fronts.
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or if it comes down to it, placing the new cc on its own stand infront of the current stand where the cc is now.

This would get vetoed - replacing the stand would look better.


If you have unlimited fund...

...but a third 60v5

...have a custom speaker builder to put the tweeter and mid in a box that will fit on the top shelf, and the two woofers in a box for the bottom shelf

...have someone design an external crossover (like Dennis Murphy) to make the two box solution work

...enjoy

Having the stand builder make a new custom stand with a taller top shelf would be cheaper...


...like you said, shelf above the TV is likely the best compromise for you.

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post #27 of 46 Old 12-13-2012, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Rick. It took me quite sometime researching to find a stand that would fit the width of a 65"er.

The actual process was more like tv>stand>speakers where I really didn't think the current cc I have would impact the sound that much. But I guess with better fronts (I was using old Cerwin Vega fronts before) you need a better/matching cc.

I'm probably going to get a Studio cc or bookshelf to match the fronts.

I'm thinking of making the shelf by playing off this design

The feet will slide underneath the current stand so it brings the shelf as close to the back of the tv. I just have to find the right type of metal to fabricate it with and will take up to 80lbs if I get the 690.
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post #28 of 46 Old 12-14-2012, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcc View Post

I wish that was a feasible option but I bought the stand last year specifically for the tv. Plus the wife would kill me smile.gif
This is my current setup.

I was thinking about fabricating some sort of stand to put the cc above the tv or if it comes down to it, placing the new cc on its own stand infront of the current stand where the cc is now.

OK, looking at your picture, you have a big issue, specifically that the tweeters on your large towers are WAY higher than your center channel position. This is just not ideal. Also, I see that your center speaker is sitting flat on the shelf. Have you tried angling that speaker up towards the listening position? That might help, but probably only a bit. With your space limitations keeping you from being able to use a center speaker that is on a par with your mains, I would probably go with phantom mode.

I had a similar situation in that I had to sit my center speaker on TOP of my rear projection TV, and that resulted in the center speaker being way higher than the L/R speakers. I tried 3 or 4 different center speakers, and angled the speaker down, but in no case was I satisfied with the dialog intelligibility compared to using phantom mode of my front L/R speakers. I finally gave up and for now I am sticking with phantom mode.

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post #29 of 46 Old 12-14-2012, 10:01 PM
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Here are two TV floor stands - they fit behind/under your current TV cabinet/stand and have their own "wall style" mount.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bello-Optional-Metal-Flat-Panel-LCD-Plasma-Floor-Stand-Black-TV-Mount-/200857054514?pt=US_TV_Mounts_Brackets&hash=item2ec4036d32

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Transdeco-TD570B-Flat-Panel-Tv-Mounting-System-W-Casters-For-Up-To-60-Inch-Tvs-/370610653235?pt=US_Entertainment_Units_TV_Stands&hash=item564a1dc833

I had the same problem as you - I use the second one, which is more expensive but lets you to tilt and rotate the TV. Both will hold up to a 65" TV and allow you some flexibility re the height of the TV (i.e. how much room you leave for a center speaker on the top shelf of your current TV cabinet/stand).

In a sense they offer all the benefits of wall mounting your TV without the install hassle. Additional pluses over wall mounting are you can easily reposition your TV in the room or take the stand/mount with you if you move.
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post #30 of 46 Old 12-15-2012, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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@mtrot: Thanks. As I mentioned in post #16 I did try the phantom cc setting and although it does improve the clarity/crispness of dialog just isn't there when it's just a cc.

That picture is when I finished doing my basement/setup so it doesn't show the cc as angled which it is now. It does help but the like I have mentioned also that I don't get that wide dispersion and it's more central/localized.

@sdg: I never thought of raising the tv instead of the cc. That second one may be the solution. Though would that base be able to fit underneath my current stand? That's the determining factor.

Do you have a pic of your setup?

Are you using spikes or casters?
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