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post #91 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

I would recommend going with the Onk 818, if for no other reason to get XT-32. It is superior even if only using one sub. More filters concentrating on low freq. modal issues means less flab/ringing. A room doesn't exist without these problems. I came from PIo and Advanced MCACC so I know of what I speak. wink.gif

HSU is good, so is PSA. Might want to look at PSA more closely; Tom V. is highly respected around here.

Re: EMP Tek, you might want to poke around in the EMP owner's thread here on AVS before leaping. Yeah, they're cheap at that price but a quick look shows some flaws I couldn't live with. Someone posted graphs showing pretty wild FR variances between their L&R's. This is why David F. of Ascend makes a big deal about hand-matching L&R's within 1db (including printouts) before pairs leave the factory. There's nothing you can do about that once you own them. It's also a bit alarming to see references to nasty cabinet resonances, to the point guys are adding polyfil on their own. Those EMP's are also a bit low in sensitivity for my taste, especially considering they are rated at a nominal 6 ohm resistive load. No doubt, they'll dip a good bit lower in use which could mean either distortion or amp shutdown.

Perhaps take a second look at Ascend or Salk. Both are excellent and as someone else pointed out, you could pop for the RAAL tweeter with either manufacturer.

Chris

If you are referring to mine you need to keep in mind that im not in a completely square room, the left is in between a back and side wall while the right is in front of a back wall and a completely open space to the right of it. Can't be so quick to judge a speaker based on measurements in a room thats not treated and controlled.. The ascends would have the same issues in regards to dips in certain frequencie ranges. Can't blame bad room acoustics on the speaker.

I love my EMP's the BIGGEST issue IMO with them is their cabinet resonance, I myself have a few audiophile friends with systems mroe expensive than mine that are quite impressed with them and they dident even pick up on the resonance issue until I made them really listen and pointed it out.

You need to remember your referring to people that now live with these speakers and we are knit picking at them. I am extremely happy with their sound quality cabinet resonance aside (not even that big od an issue, and its a non issue in a movie/gaming enviroment, and most music its fine as well) When it comes to movies and gaming, which I do more of than anything, these speakers really sound great, I have never had a problem with resonance that I could hear anyways, and there is a lot of detail. As far as music goes, theres probably only a dozen songs ive listened to where the resonance shows up. To be hoenst, I don't think most people woudl even realize it or care unless they knew what and when they were looking for it.

EMP E55ti | EMP E56ci | Polk T15's for surround duty | Ultimax 15" Sub | Integra 40.2 | Rotel 976 | Panasonic 60ST60
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post #92 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by crussader View Post

Absolutely. I just had to jump in with mine because it seemed like nobody was defending the poor little surround speakers.

What? Almost everyone is giving me grief for saying that 5.1 is just as good as 7.1. for most family rooms. Practically everyone is saying that 7.1 or 9.1 is unequivocally SIGNIFICANTLY better than 5.1 without a shadow of doubt.

I like the little surrounds speakers. I never said surround speakers are not needed. They're my friends too. I just said 5.1 is good enough for most family size rooms, which is about 20' x 20' x 10'. biggrin.gif

But if your room is 30' x 60', then 7.1, 9.1, etc, is definitely a good thing.
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post #93 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

But the big question..and I think I know your answer and agree... is 5.2 generally better than 7.1?

Actually, given that choice I would opt for 7.1.

David
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post #94 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 12:10 PM
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Here's my 2 cents...

I would go for the PSA XV15 or XS15. Best bang for the buck for a middle range sub. Get 2 if you think you need 2. I would get 2 over a single XS30 since having 2 drivers spaced out is better than 2 drivers next to each other. If you get 2 subs, I would seriously look at the refurb Denon 4311. Getting a refurb is a gamble, but it's way better than the Onkyo 818 or the Pioneer you're looking at.

Here's an option for the front 3...
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/FOCAL814V/FOCAL-Chorus-814V-716v-Dual-6-Floorstanding-Speakers-Gloss-Black-Pair/1.html
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/FOCALCC814V/FOCAL-Chorus-CC814V-800V-Dual-6-Center-Speaker-Gloss-Black-Each/1.html?c=to
I haven't heard them, but I've read the above prices are fantastic for these.

I prefer 7.1 over 5.1. I run 11.3 with audyssey dsx and the extra surrounds/heights/wides makes a big difference. Even if most of the sounds are derived from the other channels.
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post #95 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 03:11 PM
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The OP mentioned he was thinking one XS30 with another down the road. So if that's what his budget would allow, that's still a better option then dual XV15's IMO.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #96 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The OP mentioned he was thinking one XS30 with another down the road. So if that's what his budget would allow, that's still a better option then dual XV15's IMO.

He's only got 2,100 cubic feet...2 XS-30's?

That would be impressive.

Projector: Benq W1070 1080p 2D/3D
Screen: 120" Elite fixed frame
AVR: Onkyo TX-NR809
Mains: Klipsch RF-62ii x 2
Center: Klipsch RC-62ii
Surrounds: Klipsch RS-42ii x 2
Subs: Dual Hsu VTF-15H's
Sonos-Play 5 and Play 3
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post #97 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 05:09 PM
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I only have 2100cubic/ft! biggrin.gif

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #98 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 05:52 PM
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He said he can add a second sub down the road to the XS-30 or Rythmik F15HP seems like a no brainer to me. He's leaning toward the PSA at this point so XS-30 looks like a winner. It's a great sub, no doubt. I suppose the argument can be made for 2 XS-15 now and 2 more later though.

OP here's a thread on those JTR's. I think they look very promising, especially if you can run them on fairly standard level AVR (onkyo, denon, etc).
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1458711/jtr-noesis-228ht-the-best-speaker-you-never-heard-of-for-1000-pricepoint
That intro price looks to be a steal for what those speakers are. The Noesis I heard were very impressive and Jeff of JTR is a great fella.


On Onkyo 818 vs Denon 4311 it really comes down to the features you want. The 4311 has more amp channels built in and also can go up to 11.2.. I'd never use that, well at least before the next AVR upgrade. It also has Audyssey SubEQHT which does not EQ subs at all. It can independently set distance / phase and can independently set level, I can do better then it does with the gear I have on hand so that is worthless to me. The 818 supports 4k video and has more video processor type features. Folks also tend to like the GUI better although I'd say neither is all that great. The 24p bug is fixed for sure BTW on the 818. The 4311 is a 3year old design at this point.

It is just tradeoffs between the two. The 4311 was certainly AVR king for a long time and is a great AVR, not trying to ding it or start the AVR war here (this has been gone through dozens of times). If I missed a couple differences feel free to add to my list.

I'm really not seeing why you are so set on those EMP speakers. I really think you should prioritize on the sound quality of the front three speakers now and work on the other upgrades later. My system has been on an ever evolving upgrade path since day1 about 20 years ago. I'm very pleased with where I am at but have several things on my wish list. My front 3 are nice, my subs are nice, XT32, plenty of power for my listening...surrounds blow and no acoustic treatments. I could use a better measuring mic then my RS meter as well.

Good luck.
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post #99 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright for the sake of being decisive and not overwhelming myself with all of the options, I've chosen to go with the Onkyo TX-NR818 for my AVR and the PSA XS30 for my subwoofer. That is +- %40 percent of my budget at $2000.
Now as far as loudspeakers go, in particular the front 3, I'm at a total loss after all of this. I am not hell bent on buying the EMPTek setup, but please convince me there is a definitively better setup L-C-R and at least one set of surrounds for $2000. Thank you again
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post #100 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 07:06 PM
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I think those are solid choices.

Have you been out listening to speakers? What brands do you have in the area? Time for a demo list and hit the streets.

EDIT: and a notebook. Find out what you like, speakers are very subjective and personal. They all have their own character.
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post #101 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 07:20 PM
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Ohh yeah, you should strongly consider getting a Dayton UMM-6 mic to use with REW as well for around 100 bux.
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post #102 of 134 Old 03-12-2013, 08:09 PM
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hmmm those JTR Noesis 228's are 1k each, so that's going to cause other compromises. They are getting rave reviews though. You are also saving 600 bux on three of them.

-Start with a PSA XS-15, start putting away for the second ASAP
-Maybe drop down to an Audyssey XT AVR but the Denon 2313 doesn't have pre-outs, it looks like you need the 3313 for that and I'm not sure that's any less then the onkyo 818.
-How about Behringer B2031P $129 at parts express for surround duty or something off craiglist
-Also get that $100 Dayton mic for measurements ASAP

Upgrade path is adding 1 XS-15, then better surrounds, then more XS-15s, then AVR 4-5 years down the line.

EDIT; I asked over in the Noesis thread about driving them with an AVR and multiple folks are with no problem. Because they are high sensitivity you are going to get them screaming with little power. I'd say that puts the Denon 2313 @ $450 back on the table. I'd be really surprise if you find yourself wanting more power (to get louder).
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post #103 of 134 Old 03-13-2013, 05:24 AM
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Quote:


On Onkyo 818 vs Denon 4311 it really comes down to the features you want. The 4311 has more amp channels built in and also can go up to 11.2.. I'd never use that, well at least before the next AVR upgrade. It also has Audyssey SubEQHT which does not EQ subs at all. It can independently set distance / phase and can independently set level, I can do better then it does with the gear I have on hand so that is worthless to me. The 818 supports 4k video and has more video processor type features. Folks also tend to like the GUI better although I'd say neither is all that great. The 24p bug is fixed for sure BTW on the 818. The 4311 is a 3year old design at this point.

I'm not sure what you mean by it not EQ'ing subs. It sets the distance for each of the two channels independantly and then applies an eq curve to both channels. The 818 doesn't have a different distance setting for each channel. Having two distance settings is very important when you have two subs.

4K video support is worthless IMO. Any 4K TV will automatically scale input to it's native 4K format so having an AVR do this is redundant. Plus, when 4K tvs become mainstream, any processing being released now will be obsolete.

The only advantage the 818 has is it supports Neo:X and some may prefer it over Audyssey dsx.
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post #104 of 134 Old 03-13-2013, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post


EDIT; I asked over in the Noesis thread about driving them with an AVR and multiple folks are with no problem. Because they are high sensitivity you are going to get them screaming with little power. I'd say that puts the Denon 2313 @ $450 back on the table. I'd be really surprise if you find yourself wanting more power (to get louder).

+1. The Noesis are uber-sensitive, so it won't take much to get them screaming loud. That negates the need for a receiver with preouts. If he gets something with 90dB sensitivity or lower though, I recommend getting a receiver with preouts in case he wants to add an external amp down the road. Feed non-high sensitivity speakers as much power as you can.

OGMikeT, if you do get the EMPTek speakers then definitely think about a powerful receiver or at least one with preouts.

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post #105 of 134 Old 03-13-2013, 07:21 AM
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OGMikeT, you might find this thread helpful:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1458372/arx-a5-vs-htd-level-three-vs-emp-e55ti-tower-shootout

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
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post #106 of 134 Old 03-13-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post


I'm not sure what you mean by it not EQ'ing subs. It sets the distance for each of the two channels independantly and then applies an eq curve to both channels. The 818 doesn't have a different distance setting for each channel. Having two distance settings is very important when you have two subs.
Your description is pretty close. SubEQHT also sets level independently for each of the subs. SubEQHT doesn't do the EQ though, Audyssey XT32 does that so both the 818 and the 4311 EQ the two subs as one. Which is definitely the way to go about it. SubEQHT does not do EQ, it does independent level and distance for two subs. That can be done with other tools but for some folks I agree it can be a helpful feature depending on your situation and level of tweak desire.
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4K video support is worthless IMO. Any 4K TV will automatically scale input to it's native 4K format so having an AVR do this is redundant. Plus, when 4K tvs become mainstream, any processing being released now will be obsolete.
Mostly agree on this point for now, but FYI there is a $3k 4k displaying out this year and prices will keep dropping. The tech is coming so having the support in the AVR now could ease the adoption pricetag. I could see this becoming a factor for me before I am looking to swap out my AVR again but I tend to have a longer duty cycle then many I think. I ran my last marantz for about 10 years.
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The only advantage the 818 has is it supports Neo:X and some may prefer it over Audyssey dsx.
Well that and the other things I pointed out but thanks for the additional items. I would call them tradeoffs though. The 4311 does have some features the 818 does not have but I tried to list those as well.

But here we are rehashing a discussion that's been done many many many times.

My rec at this point is those Noesis speakers so I don't think OP should get either of those AVR's given the budget.
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post #107 of 134 Old 03-13-2013, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post


EDIT; I asked over in the Noesis thread about driving them with an AVR and multiple folks are with no problem. Because they are high sensitivity you are going to get them screaming with little power. I'd say that puts the Denon 2313 @ $450 back on the table. I'd be really surprise if you find yourself wanting more power (to get louder).

+1. The Noesis are uber-sensitive, so it won't take much to get them screaming loud. That negates the need for a receiver with preouts. If he gets something with 90dB sensitivity or lower though, I recommend getting a receiver with preouts in case he wants to add an external amp down the road. Feed non-high sensitivity speakers as much power as you can.

OGMikeT, if you do get the EMPTek speakers then definitely think about a powerful receiver or at least one with preouts.

OP that Noesis sale ends on the 15th I think, well they go up 100 each for another month at which point they go up another 100. Not sure if that would be enough time for me to decide but I would definitely read everything I could on them in the mean time.
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post #108 of 134 Old 03-14-2013, 09:59 AM
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I used to run a def tech set up in my HT. My front stage consisted of SM450's for L/R, PM2000 center, and di-pole 1.2x's in the rear. For HT it was a pretty awesome set up. No complaints. Music however, I felt the SM450's were a bit lifeless. I ended up upgrading to an Ascend front stage, towers and horizon center. Great for HT and awesome for music.

If it were me, with that budget I'd go with the following:

Denon 4311: $1,200
Front stage: Ascend Sierra's $1,500
Surrounds: Ascend HTM-200: $300

That would leave you $1,000 for a sub.

Sharp LC70SQ15U
Denon 4311ci
Ascend Acoustics Towers (NrT)
Ascend Horizon Center (NrT)
Definitive Technology Surrounds BP1.2X
Rythmik E15HP
Epik Empire
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post #109 of 134 Old 03-14-2013, 10:55 AM
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No intention to hijack your thread, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned Klipsch for both HT and Music.

No love for RF-82iis or possibly RF-7iis with matching centers if he can stretch his budget?

Driving them to reference level would not be very difficult either, and they should serve the OP well for a room of his size.
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post #110 of 134 Old 03-14-2013, 11:38 AM
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No intention to hijack your thread, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned Klipsch for both HT and Music.

No love for RF-82iis or possibly RF-7iis with matching centers if he can stretch his budget?

Driving them to reference level would not be very difficult either, and they should serve the OP well for a room of his size.

I'm personally not a fan, I've heard the RF-7's while they do get loud, to me they just make "noise" they lack mid and low end detail many other speakers ive heard have. Their highs are very details and crisp, but a bit to bright and I dont like the sound of the "horn" I feel like the sound is plasticy, like I can hear the sound bouncing off the palstic as if you were playing a speaker through a PVC tube or something..

Thats my own personal preference though.

I have heard them cranked though and they dont seem to break a sweat blasting loud with movies tongue.gif

EMP E55ti | EMP E56ci | Polk T15's for surround duty | Ultimax 15" Sub | Integra 40.2 | Rotel 976 | Panasonic 60ST60
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post #111 of 134 Old 03-15-2013, 05:37 AM
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+1 on no RF-7II but this is all personal choice.

The RF-7II ...are not bad....and if you have a HUGE room could be considered good but as Shady says... Too Boomy in the bass, mid range is lack detail...and even for me the high end..is very nice but there is a sort of texture to music that it misses. The way a human voice catches ...you can hear it in good speakers but not these.

Not to mention the price tag puts you in range for some truely amazing speakers.
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post #112 of 134 Old 03-15-2013, 10:51 AM
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Interesting - thanks for the responses Newbie and Shady.

I recommended Klipsch because they're one of the easier brands to demo, and are a big-box company that can provide support easily (if that's important to the OP).
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post #113 of 134 Old 03-16-2013, 10:35 PM
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did op go charlie sheen on us? and if so, why was I not invited?
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post #114 of 134 Old 03-17-2013, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

did op go charlie sheen on us? and if so, why was I not invited?

Haha! Sorry all, I've had a tough week at work. Haven't been keeping up with my wants nearly enough. I think I have it nailed down though.

Ascend Sierra 1 NrT upgrade L- R
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1.html
Ascend Sierra 1 Center NrT upgrade
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1C/srm1c.html
Ascend HTM-200 SE pair x 2 for surround duties
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200.html
TP-24 Pedestal Stands
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/pedstlcmt340.html

PSA XS30
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs30

Onkyo Tx-NR818

Comments? NrT upgrade worth $300 on the Sierra 1's?
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post #115 of 134 Old 03-17-2013, 11:40 AM
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Another option if you're willing to wait will be the new Sierra 2...it uses the RAAL xr70-20...speculation on pricing places it betwteen the NrT and the Sierra 1 custom fitted with the RAAL upgrade...more informatiom can be found at the Ascend forum.

I ordered my Sierra 1's with the NrT from the outset and later moved to the Towers...by all accounts the NrT provides a little more transparancy and accentuates the highs due to a more gradual roll off...many who did the switch claimed the Sierra became a more lively speaker....I know...I love the way they sounded when I first got mine...biggrin.gif.

Good luck...smile.gif

Old Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, but we borrow it from our children!

Ascend Acoustics (NrT)Towers, STC w RAAL, 200 SE in espresso
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post #116 of 134 Old 03-17-2013, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Another option if you're willing to wait will be the new Sierra 2...it uses the RAAL xr70-20...speculation on pricing places it betwteen the NrT and the Sierra 1 custom fitted with the RAAL upgrade...more informatiom can be found at the Ascend forum.

I ordered my Sierra 1's with the NrT from the outset and later moved to the Towers...by all accounts the NrT provides a little more transparancy and accentuates the highs due to a more gradual roll off...many who did the switch claimed the Sierra became a more lively speaker....I know...I love the way they sounded when I first got mine...biggrin.gif.

Good luck...smile.gif

Thanks for the heads up on the new line coming out. I was just reading through a thread on the Ascend forums in which you contributed.
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?5092-Sierra-1-NRT-vs-Towers-No-comparison-A-friend-got-me-thinking/page6
There's a lot of good information on there and I think I'm making a good choice. I'd love to be able to afford the Sierra Tower's and Horizon Center. Perhaps I'll do the same thing as you eventually and upgrade.
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post #117 of 134 Old 03-17-2013, 02:13 PM
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did op go charlie sheen on us? and if so, why was I not invited?

Haha! Sorry all, I've had a tough week at work. Haven't been keeping up with my wants nearly enough. I think I have it nailed down though.

Ascend Sierra 1 NrT upgrade L- R
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1.html
Ascend Sierra 1 Center NrT upgrade
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1C/srm1c.html
Ascend HTM-200 SE pair x 2 for surround duties
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200.html
TP-24 Pedestal Stands
http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/pedstlcmt340.html

PSA XS30
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs30

Onkyo Tx-NR818

Comments? NrT upgrade worth $300 on the Sierra 1's?

Solid looking plan. I've always heard good things about ascend but have not heard them myself. I just went through some of the NrT discussions and it looks worth it to me. The RAAL tweeter is very nice too. Rear ported speakers can be sensitive to how close to the wall they are placed so make sure you give the some breathing room back there. I think 12-18 inches is usually good but you may check in that thread.

Do It
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post #118 of 134 Old 03-17-2013, 02:13 PM
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Which finish are you going for?
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post #119 of 134 Old 03-17-2013, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Which finish are you going for?

Piano Black. Fits the theme of the room better than the other options
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post #120 of 134 Old 03-17-2013, 03:35 PM
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Piano Black. Fits the theme of the room better than the other options

The decision is invariably yours...I know the Piano Black is a dust magnet...lol. I opted for the satin finish on my Towers for that reason but the PB and to a lesser extent HG really look elegant. I know the Towers come with a Satin bamboo finish you might inquire about....it looks really nice and allows the natural grain of the bamboo to come through..smile.gif

Good luck with whatever you decide Ascends or not?

Bill...smile.gif

Old Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, but we borrow it from our children!

Ascend Acoustics (NrT)Towers, STC w RAAL, 200 SE in espresso
54" of Panasonic Bliss, Anthem MRX 300
Sony BDP-S380, TechnicsCD player, Apple TV
PSA XS30 SE in Cordovan Cherry
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