Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE vs Arx A1b - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 09:31 AM
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Some Info on XBL2 from the Adire tech paper.

http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf

"XBL2 reduces distortion. Keeping the BL flat means more constant motor force at excursion, which means better tracking of large-signal inputs.

This advantage translates into directly measurable and audible reductions in distortion. For the example motors analyzed in this paper, the distortion figures are given for ±10.8mm excursion (70% of Xmax). The

XBL2 motor has less than 30% of the distortion present in the other motors.


XBL2 motors are useful for all audio transducers. While this example has focused on woofers, the advantages are also applicable for midranges and tweeters. In fact, the low inductance and moving mass of this

motor are extremely beneficial in wideband transducers. Typically, XBL2 will halve the inductance of a comparable-excursion overhung motor, which can result in adding a full octave of extension on the high end.

Add in the lower moving mass from the short coil, and the driver designer has a greater degree of flexibility in driver creation.
"

XBL2 isn't the absolute best its just another very successful way of designing a driver. Theres many other great drivers out there without XBL2 tech.
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post #92 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

Yeah except for the two copper shorting rings employed in the Arx motor. The BL distortion is reduced by 40% over a std (overhung). Even a naked XBL2 motor still has lower inductance than many cheap standard designs.
I'll also add that the Arx midwoofer is essentially a modified under-hung design, which is why it is called XBL2/SplitGap. The coil never leaves the gap within the linear excursion limits that Jon stated.
EDIT: If high inductance were a certain quality of XBL2, it would certainly NOT be used for a tweeter by CSS.
http://creativesound.ca/details.php?model=LD25X
& Test report of the LD25X:
http://creativesound.ca/pdf/JBLD25X.pdf
I won't dispute any of that or anything specific to the woofer in the Arx. I don't own it and haven't heard it...but I have heard other midwoofers that use XBL2 in other speakers. If it is a good driver, it's a good driver, just like the woofer in the CBM-170. If it sounds good, it sounds good....I don't care the speaker gets there, because in the end, it really doesn't matter.

I'm just being specific to XBL2 technology. One can simply google XBL2 and see many of the discussions related to it. It isn't a new design, and has been around for at least 10 years, so there have been many discussions. It started out mainly out for subwoofer drivers, but really is not talked about a lot in that application. Just google "XBL2".

In fact, Dan Wiggins(the owner of the patent) has said that even if a driver uses XBL2, doesn't mean it is a good driver.

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post #93 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

It's not that simple.
It won't nullify the reduced distortion in the midbass provided by the Splitgap motor. It would nullify any output gains the Arx has, however.

You are making the assumption that the Arx has an advantage in distortion.

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post #94 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 09:54 AM
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We would have to see the distortion numbers for each driver to say one has any kind of advantage over the other.
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post #95 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I won't dispute any of that or anything specific to the woofer in the Arx. I don't own it and haven't heard it...but I have heard other midwoofers that use XBL2 in other speakers. If it is a good driver, it's a good driver, just like the woofer in the CBM-170. If it sounds good, it sounds good....I don't care the speaker gets there, because in the end, it really doesn't matter.
I'm just being specific to XBL2 technology. One can simply google XBL2 and see many of the discussions related to it. It isn't a new design, and has been around for at least 10 years, so there have been many discussions. It started out mainly out for subwoofer drivers, but really is not talked about a lot in that application. Just google "XBL2".
In fact, Dan Wiggins(the owner of the patent) has said that even if a driver uses XBL2, doesn't mean it is a good driver.

One can poorly implement ANY technology. This is not poorly implemented. wink.gif

Here is another wideband driver that uses XBL2:
http://creativesound.ca/details.php?model=VWR126X

It is certainly NOT limited to bass use and it does not necessarily mean increased inductance. Minimizing inductance in ALL bass drivers is a constant struggle, regardless of the motor design employed. Often in bass transducers, it is a tradeoff of how much excursion one can achieve vice the inductance which limits upper frequency response/sensitivity. For bass drivers, inductance issues can be present merely as a result of the immense amount of metal in the motor itself and not due to any singular motor design.

These limitations do not hamper a midwoofer which has a much smaller (though relatively very sizeable) motor structure.

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post #96 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Some Info on XBL2 from the Adire tech paper.
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf
"XBL2 reduces distortion. Keeping the BL flat means more constant motor force at excursion, which means better tracking of large-signal inputs.
This advantage translates into directly measurable and audible reductions in distortion. For the example motors analyzed in this paper, the distortion figures are given for ±10.8mm excursion (70% of Xmax). The
XBL2 motor has less than 30% of the distortion present in the other motors.

XBL2 motors are useful for all audio transducers. While this example has focused on woofers, the advantages are also applicable for midranges and tweeters. In fact, the low inductance and moving mass of this
motor are extremely beneficial in wideband transducers. Typically, XBL2 will halve the inductance of a comparable-excursion overhung motor, which can result in adding a full octave of extension on the high end.
Add in the lower moving mass from the short coil, and the driver designer has a greater degree of flexibility in driver creation.
"
XBL2 isn't the absolute best its just another very successful way of designing a driver. Theres many other great drivers out there without XBL2 tech.
I have read that paper, and it is interesting that Dan says it has low inductance, where a lot of discussions I have read talk about higher inductance.

I agree with you, it is a great tech for drivers, but not the only one.

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post #97 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You are making the assumption that the Arx has an advantage in distortion.

The Ascend uses a std overhung design, no?

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post #98 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

We would have to see the distortion numbers for each driver to say one has any kind of advantage over the other.
Agreed.

In the end, like I said, it is about how the speaker sounds (and for some, how it measures).

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post #99 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Agreed.
In the end, like I said, it is about how the speaker sounds (and for some, how it measures).

Yes. For some. wink.gif

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post #100 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 10:19 AM
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Well who has a Klippel? lol. I know one person, but he mainly does car audio drivers

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post #101 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 10:34 AM
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Well who has a Klippel? lol. I know one person, but he mainly does car audio drivers

Yeah I've noticed alot of car audio guys use Klippel especially on DIY MA car audio forum. Seems like when it comes to drivers they really go to some lenghts to get every little detail.

Now we just have to find someone who is willing to send out there Ascend driver and Arx driver.
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post #102 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

The Ascend uses a std overhung design, no?
Yes..I believe so.

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post #103 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Yeah I've noticed alot of car audio guys use Klippel especially on DIY MA car audio forum. Seems like when it comes to drivers they really go to some lenghts to get every little detail.
Now we just have to find someone who is willing to send out there Ascend driver and Arx driver.
The extreme car audio hobbyist is a different breed...more extreme than their home audio counterparts. At least from I can tell.

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post #104 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 11:13 AM
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I have read that paper, and it is interesting that Dan says it has low inductance, where a lot of discussions I have read talk about higher inductance.

Yet initially you only mention reading about the higher inductance (as a drawback). To ask why would be the very definition itself of a rhetorical question.
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post #105 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 11:15 AM
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Yet initially you only mention reading about the higher inductance (as a drawback). To ask why would be the very definition itself of a rhetorical question.
True...but I read papers like that as more marketing...which you have to admit, is how it reads. The discussions are much more interesting.

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True...but I read papers like that as more marketing...which you have to admit, is how it reads. The discussions are much more interesting.

Have you ever selectively referenced what could also be construed as marketing like it's objective and/or factual?
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The extreme car audio hobbyist is a different breed...more extreme than their home audio counterparts. At least from I can tell.

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post #108 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 11:33 AM
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Two forums with a several page threads discussing XBL2 tech. For those that want to read up more on it. And I noticed our thread is just a few links down when you search for XBL2 tech.

http://www.caraudio.com/forums/subwoofers/80396-does-xbl2-really-mean-anything.html
http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/car-audio/151628.html

The only thing I don't get is the recurring claim that XBL2 is more efficient cause to me it seems like my Arx need much more power to get to a certain level compared to all my other speakers i've. Going from Axiom to Arx was a huge step in the opposite direction especially for output were the Axioms didn't need as much volume to get as loud as the Arx.
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post #109 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 11:33 AM
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I'm going to add that XBL2 sacrificing any meaningful amount of efficiency to a std motor is bunk. I'll quote from eCoustics back in 2005 re XBL2:

"BTW, the main benefit of this topology isn't fully realized with subwoofers. This actually sees more benefit with midbasses, midranges, tweeters, and full range drivers. Typically, and XBL^2 driver will still only have 30% of the distortion other designs have at 70% of maximum linear excursion (x-max). In many cases, this translates to around a 1% distortion rating at 70% excursion, while others are between 3 and 5%. This allows a design that yields very clean sound at higher volumes and can fully realize the potential of enclosures such as sealed and infinite baffle, where excursion is naturally higher and SQ tends to suffer at high volumes due to that.

The biggest benefit of XBL^2 is that it allows a smaller driver to have higher output levels and a wider bandwidth, meaning a 6" midbass driver could potentially have the depth of a typical 8" driver and rival some 10" drivers for depth, and be very linear and accurate doing it. Their Extremis midbass driver is a good example of this, it is a 6.8" driver having a 13mm one way X-max, only a .13mH inductance, and is ideal for ported boxes tuned in the 30s, offering in-room extension down to the 20s. Inductive rolloff occurs around 8khz and there are no nasty breakup modes from the cone, crossover will typically be 2-3khz. To give you an idea, the Scan-Speak Revelator and SEAS Excel drivers, which are renowned high end home audio drivers, have a good bit more inductance, right at half or less than half the excursion level, less motor strength, and less bandwidth.[/B][/B] As their designs progress even further, Adire is going to be a very difficult manufacturer to beat, or even level with for that matter.

About efficiency, XBL^2 is actually more efficient than most motor designs out there overall, it is the soft parts that tend to bring down the efficiency of the subs they are used in. Adire uses epoxy treated paper cones in their subs, which are heavier than many other materials, but chosen for their damping ability, they also use a wider profile surround as opposed to a taller one, which controls the subwoofer very well, but cuts down surface area, and tighter suspension designs than many. XBL^2 isn't really the reason a Brahma isn't as efficient than other subs, but rather the reason it isn't less efficient than it already is. Adire is also more true with their sensitivity specs than many other manufacturers. Remember as well, that sensitivity specs are very misleading and give no clue to how loud a subwoofer will be at higher volumes. Excursion is low at 1 watt , a subwoofer with a parabolic BL curve will do well at 1 watt, but lose motor strength (thus efficiency) at higher volumes. XBL^2, on the other hand, offers flat BL and will give more BL at higher volumes than many other motor designs, making it more efficient with the power.
"

http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/car-audio/151628.html

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

EDIT: The 6.5" diameter Ascend woofer has greater sensitivity due to it's greater overall surface area vice the Arx, but my point is that a subwoofer would not necessarily negate the distortion advantages presented by the SplitGap/XBL2 Arx midwoofer even if it did level the playing field with regard to out put (and I don't see why it wouldn't put them on even footing as to output).

I've noticed that you use the word "vice" a few times and I'm wondering do you mean "versus" instead?
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post #111 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Two forums with a several page threads discussing XBL2 tech. For those that want to read up more on it. And I noticed our thread is just a few links down when you search for XBL2 tech.
http://www.caraudio.com/forums/subwoofers/80396-does-xbl2-really-mean-anything.html
http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/car-audio/151628.html
The only thing I don't get is the recurring claim that XBL2 is more efficient cause to me it seems like my Arx need much more power to get to a certain level compared to all my other speakers i've. Going from Axiom to Arx was a huge step in the opposite direction especially for output were the Axioms didn't need as much volume to get as loud as the Arx.

I would reference this quote regarding the efficiency issue:

"Remember as well, that sensitivity specs are very misleading and give no clue to how loud a subwoofer will be at higher volumes. Excursion is low at 1 watt , a subwoofer with a parabolic BL curve will do well at 1 watt, but lose motor strength (thus efficiency) at higher volumes. XBL^2, on the other hand, offers flat BL and will give more BL at higher volumes than many other motor designs, making it more efficient with the power."

I don't think XBL2 implementation means more wideband efficiency, necessarily. It does mean an increase in efficiency in bass frequencies as excursion increases AND a reduction in distortion at all frequencies."

In the real world, this won't appear as standard "efficiency" in terms of notches on the volume dial. It will, however, appear as vastly reduced dynamic compression of bass transients at higher playback levels, with speakers maintaining their dynamic bass performance to much increased spl outputs. The bass won't wither when the cabinets are pushed hard and dynamic compression will be MUCH reduced. It will stay more "punchy".

Make sense?

As for overall sensitivity, one is always trading excursion capability and cone mass (for good bass performance) for higher sensitivity. As cschang said, tradeoffs must be made. But my point is that ZERO unique tradeoffs had to be made to employ XBL2/SplitGap tech into the Arx midwoofers. These are tradeoffs that ALL designers face....regardless of the motor design or technology implemented.
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post #112 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by p3Orion View Post

I've noticed that you use the word "vice" a few times and I'm wondering do you mean "versus" instead?

See definition # 3:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vice

"Definition of VICE:

in the place of 'I will preside, vice the absent chairman'; also : rather than"

It is common usage in law enforcement and MIL communities. It is less common for regular folks. You're not the first one who has asked me this. wink.gif

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post #113 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 11:46 AM
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Makes sense now lol.

Never though of it that way. I had to have the dial much higher than I ever did with the Axioms and I first thought something might be wrong. Just like the Axioms had more "efficiency" but seemed strained once they started to play louder. The Arx producing the drum kick for example still had authority even with the cone moving like crazy. Where as the Axioms seemed to have almost zero excursion from the woofers (M22s).
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It is common usage in law enforcement and MIL communities. It is less common for regular folks. You're not the first one who has asked me this. wink.gif

Is MIL short for milf? If so, the word vice might have a very different definition in that particular case.biggrin.gif
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Is MIL short for milf? If so, the word vice might have a very different definition in that particular case.biggrin.gif

Haha. It's short for military. However, if the MILF is hot and no longer married, she is fair game. biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Makes sense now lol.
Never though of it that way. I had to have the dial much higher than I ever did with the Axioms and I first thought something might be wrong. Just like the Axioms had more "efficiency" but seemed strained once they started to play louder. The Arx producing the drum kick for example still had authority even with the cone moving like crazy. Where as the Axioms seemed to have almost zero excursion from the woofers (M22s).

Yeah, think about it as more control over the cone at higher excursions (and higher volume settings). This, necessarily, means reduced distortion at higher volumes.

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post #117 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

Have you ever selectively referenced what could also be construed as marketing like it's objective and/or factual?
I'm sure I have.

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post #118 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

See definition # 3:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vice
"Definition of VICE:
in the place of ; also : rather than"
It is common usage in law enforcement and MIL communities. It is less common for regular folks. You're not the first one who has asked me this. wink.gif

Doh! Before I asked I had just googled "vice" and went to the merriam site, but didn't scroll down because I thought that the noun definition was the end of the page.

This discussion is way over my head so I am only grasping the basics, so when I saw the word "vice," I'm thinking, "does he mean versus or is this some obscure audiophile term"?

It's like when someone uses sans instead of without and some people think wth!
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post #119 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

The only thing I don't get is the recurring claim that XBL2 is more efficient cause to me it seems like my Arx need much more power to get to a certain level compared to all my other speakers i've. Going from Axiom to Arx was a huge step in the opposite direction especially for output were the Axioms didn't need as much volume to get as loud as the Arx.

If I may, any woofer's F3 limit and related efficiency at that point are tied to the physics of the driver, the cabinet air volume, and the bass reflex tuning parameters. These parameters describe both the bass limit and loudness at that limit, and involve only those inherent physics and not the speaker brand, quality, or even moving coil technology, at least to any significant degree. When we analyze them we always find that the larger piston enjoys an advantage - it is simply the larger acoustic lever.

In other words, to make the 5.25" woofer go as low as the 6.5" woofer in similar volumes of cabinet air, we have to decrease the efficiency of the smaller driver. Of course, we can easily gain this difference back with any good amplifier with ample available power.

Another significant factor enters in, which is current flow through the voice coil. Assuming that typical modern amplifier, a true 8 ohm woofer develops on average half (-3dB) the sensitivity of that same voltage across half that load, that being the 4 ohm woofer. The lower impedance driver will naturally be louder, at the cost of that much loudness again at the amplifier's maximum output.

Since current rises exponentially as frequency drops, the speaker with the 8 ohm midwoofer - regardless of the impedance peaks in its bass reflex region or in its crossover or tweeter region impedance magnitudes - should be considered a true 8 ohm system. Furthermore, the mid/woofer's impedance sets the entire speaker's average efficiency - a designer typically tunes tweeter levels down to the mid/woofer's level and not the reverse. (When the A1b is noted for spectral cohesion and natural dimensionality, it's partly because the tweeter is matched to the midwoofer.)

In short, to make them comparable under test, an 8 ohm load requires a 2.83v signal for 1W, while a 4 ohm load requires a 2.0v signal for 1W.

Whether such a difference applies here is up to readers to research in order to develop their perspectives.
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post #120 of 152 Old 01-08-2013, 05:59 PM
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Thanks Jon.

I just remember when I first got the A1s how much further I had to turn the volume up to new levels I never went too before. But they easily out classed the more "efficient" speaker especially in the bass and just pure fullness.
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