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post #451 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Brouham View Post

Okay, I have the Oriels and they sound good to me.
So? No one said that they don't sound good. That doesn't justify the manufacturer flat out lying about their specs. Perhaps you wouldn't care if you bought a car based on the manufacturers promise that it would get 50 miles to the gallon and it actually only got 5 miles to the gallon so long as it rode OK, but not all buyers would be pleased. The difference between 98dB/watt and a realistic 88dB/watt is exactly the same as that between 50MPG and 5MPG.

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post #452 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 06:12 AM
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^ So Bill, are you saying that the Tekton speakers sensitivity is measuring 88db/watt?
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post #453 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 06:47 AM
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^ So Bill, are you saying that the Tekton speakers sensitivity is measuring 88db/watt?
I'm saying that a single woofer speaker capable of 30Hz extension can do so with 88dB sensitivity. It cannot do so with 98dB sensitivity, nor anywhere near that. And this relates back to my oft repeated mantra that there are only two reasons why a manufacturer doesn't post SPL charts: They don't have them, or they don't want you to see them.

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post #454 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 08:41 AM
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This thread has become quite boring. It started out as a fun and informative discussion about a new speaker line from a small manufacturer causing a stir with some amazing reviews. I took notice because I had been searching for a new system, one which could give me the type of sound that I had always wanted. A sound that was warm and rich. A sound which could accurately reproduce music ( and HT too ) to sound as real as possible without coloration and exaggeration. Of course, someone here will try to correct me and "inform" me that speakers do not "produce" sound which is true but they are the devices that create the sounds that reach my ears. This is exactly the point.
Enough with the tech talk. Bla bla bla! Yes, specs are important, but only to a point of guiding someone in the right direction to find a style of speaker that fits their taste. After that, one now has to consider roon size, acoustics and placement. And this is the FUN that has been forgotten in this forum. I have the full Pen set up and have been having a blast tweaking and moving and most importantly LISTENING!!
There are a million speakers out there...........have some f__king fun.
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post #455 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I'm saying that a single woofer speaker capable of 30Hz extension can do so with 88dB sensitivity. It cannot do so with 98dB sensitivity, nor anywhere near that. And this relates back to my oft repeated mantra that there are only two reasons why a manufacturer doesn't post SPL charts: They don't have them, or they don't want you to see them.

Bill, what do you make of this blog post by Eric on the Tekton blog?

http://tektondesign.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/tekton-lore-perfect-bass/

30hz in room FR. Anechoic -10db at 32hz and -3db at 38hz.
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post #456 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 08:56 AM
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I agree with those who say we should be having fun with our Tekton speakers. I'm enjoying mine, but I also like to get additional info on what I own. I don't have a problem receiving critiques of the products I purchased because if I like it, I like it.

I also frequent Audi and various other car forums. The critiques on this site are tame in comparison; however, I suppose if you spent approximately $50K+ on something you have some more skin in the game and may be more easily offended.

The info that Bill and other science-based forum members provide is appreciated; nevertheless, in the end no one's word is gospel. I will like what I like and will enjoy it in whatever fashion I choose. I'm typing this while blasting some music through my M-Lores. Just my $.02.
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post #457 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

So? No one said that they don't sound good. That doesn't justify the manufacturer flat out lying about their specs. Perhaps you wouldn't care if you bought a car based on the manufacturers promise that it would get 50 miles to the gallon and it actually only got 5 miles to the gallon so long as it rode OK, but not all buyers would be pleased. The difference between 98dB/watt and a realistic 88dB/watt is exactly the same as that between 50MPG and 5MPG.

While I appreciate your knowledge on the matter, I think this is painting the wrong picture. Just picking a power of 10 difference between numbers--especially fuel economy--is pretty lazy. A person will notice a car that gets 5mpg when they wanted 50mpg. That's a HUGE and VERY NOTICEABLE difference. It's better to use these specs as ballpark/guidelines. The sensitivities of speakers as published may or may not be accurate...but I'm saying they're giving you an idea of what are easier to drive than others, and that's really what that number should be used for. And the analogy works better this way, too: No one buys a car thinking it will get EXACTLY 32mpg or 12mpg, rather they see that one is more fuel efficient, overall, than the other. With speakers, no one says "Wait, I want a speaker that is exactly 85db/watt sensitive." No...if they want something super sensitive, they look for the 98db+ area. I have no idea if the Tekton's specs are accurate, but I do know they are more sensitive than my maggies were, as well as my Venere 1.5's, based on spl at the same volume setting on the same amp, in the same room.

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post #458 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by guteLaune View Post

And the analogy works better this way, too: No one buys a car thinking it will get EXACTLY 32mpg or 12mpg, rather they see that one is more fuel efficient, overall, than the other. With speakers, no one says "Wait, I want a speaker that is exactly 85db/watt sensitive."

I disagree with this completely. I was a car salesmen for a time and would routinely receive customers who were unhappy that their mileage did not meet the EPA estimates. I then would explain to them that its more a function of how you drive than what you drive.

I think Bill's analogy is appropriate, the "normal range" of efficency for speakers is about 85 or so to 105 so having a manufacturer claim the higher end only for it to fall to the lower end of the whole spectrum in reality is pretty offensive.

I suppose it is no worse than Sony claiming that their HTiB's output 1000W...

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post #459 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by guteLaune View Post

While I appreciate your knowledge on the matter, I think this is painting the wrong picture. Just picking a power of 10 difference between numbers--especially fuel economy--is pretty lazy. A person will notice a car that gets 5mpg when they wanted 50mpg. That's a HUGE and VERY NOTICEABLE difference.


He explicitly picked 5mpg and 50mpg. He did not just make them up.

All things the same, a 5mpg car will take exactly 10 times the amount of fuel/power to go the same distance as the 50mpg car.

Similarily,

All things the same, an 88db/watt speaker will take exactly 10 times the amount of watts/power to get to the same volume as the 98db/watt speakers.


A person will notice that if they intend to play these speakers loudly without clipping. I think it is reasonable for people to expect these speakers play near reference level. Even if a speaker sounds ok for the most part with a 100w amp at reference level, certain sounds/frequencies can demand a spike in more power, and if you are near your 100w amp's limit, it will sound distorted. This can be noticeable (in fact people did notice this at a recent GTG and thought it was a blown speaker, when it was not). It will require a bigger and more expensive amp. This would be an unexpected cost, and would affect someone who is calculating their needs based off of a 98db/watt sensitivity vs a 88db/watt sensitivity.



NOTE: I am not an expert. I have gathered this from reading some of Jim Salk's posts where an amp was causing some issues. There is a chance I have misinterpreted it.
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post #460 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post

Bill, what do you make of this blog post by Eric on the Tekton blog?

http://tektondesign.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/tekton-lore-perfect-bass/

30hz in room FR. Anechoic -10db at 32hz and -3db at 38hz.
-10dB at 32Hz is not 30Hz response. IMO the -6dB point is the lowest that one should call the usable response. And the graph response is not specified at any power or voltage level, so it does nothing to reinforce the claimed sensitivity. As for the response, that's nothing special, you can get that from a perfectly stock Eminence BP102 driver.
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A person will notice that if they intend to play these speakers loudly without clipping. I think it is reasonable for people to expect these speakers play near reference level.
Especially if the reason you bought it was based on the claimed sensitivity and you need that sensitivity for your SET amp.

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post #461 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

-10dB at 32Hz is not 30Hz response. IMO the -6dB point is the lowest that one should call the usable response. And the graph response is not specified at any power or voltage level, so it does nothing to reinforce the claimed sensitivity. As for the response, that's nothing special, you can get that from a perfectly stock Eminence BP102 driver.
Especially if the reason you bought it was based on the claimed sensitivity and you need that sensitivity for your SET amp.

So which specification is incorrect? The 98db sensitivity or the 30hz extension, or both?
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post #462 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 12:39 PM
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So which specification is incorrect? The 98db sensitivity or the 30hz extension, or both?
Impossible to say, I haven't seen a chart for the Oriel. In a cab the size of the Oriel 98dB sensitivity can be realized with at best 60Hz extension, and 30Hz extension at best with 91dB sensitivity.
But don't get the idea I'm picking on Tekton. Klipsch makes similar outrageous claims that aren't back up with factual data.

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post #463 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Impossible to say, I haven't seen a chart for the Oriel. In a cab the size of the Oriel 98dB sensitivity can be realized with at best 60Hz extension, and 30Hz extension at best with 91dB sensitivity.
But don't get the idea I'm picking on Tekton. Klipsch makes similar outrageous claims that aren't back up with factual data.

Bill, I think you're simply picking on Tekton because you've never once been compared to Leo Fender. Please just get over it.
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post #464 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 01:43 PM
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For fear that the Tekton owners may no longer be posting in this thread, can we get an owner's review of the Enzos? I plan on posting my thoughts on the M-Lores in the coming days.
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post #465 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 03:18 PM
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In audio and video you have four big lies, Sensitivity, wattage, contrast and lumens. Often times take any of those numbers with a large grain of salt.

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post #466 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 03:58 PM
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I disagree with this completely. I was a car salesmen for a time and would routinely receive customers who were unhappy that their mileage did not meet the EPA estimates. I then would explain to them that its more a function of how you drive than what you drive.

I think Bill's analogy is appropriate, the "normal range" of efficency for speakers is about 85 or so to 105 so having a manufacturer claim the higher end only for it to fall to the lower end of the whole spectrum in reality is pretty offensive.

I suppose it is no worse than Sony claiming that their HTiB's output 1000W...

LOL, you're missing the point, but whatever--I don't care...and you obviously missed the point where I pointed out that although the tekton's may or may not meet the 98dB spec, they ARE certainly very sensitive, as I can attest from personal experience vs. speakers with lower sensitivity specs.

Tell, me, has anyone had a problem driving the tektons with a low wattage amp? No. Check the net...plenty of reviews of people using these speakers with ultra-low wattage amps with great results. So...again...we get caught up in numbers, point fingers, etc...doesn't make any sense to me.

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post #467 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post

For fear that the Tekton owners may no longer be posting in this thread, can we get an owner's review of the Enzos? I plan on posting my thoughts on the M-Lores in the coming days.

I own the enzo's. I've talked about them in this forum.

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post #468 of 1819 Old 04-17-2013, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by guteLaune View Post

I own the enzo's. I've talked about them in this forum.

Yeah, I read and appreciated your review. I was looking to see if there were any additional reviews on the Enzos.

I can attest that my M-Lores are extremely easy to drive. More sensitive than my Phils, EMP Teks or KEFs.
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post #469 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That's not possible. You can have a single woofer speaker with 98dB sensitivity, you can have a single woofer speaker with 30Hz extension. You cannot have a single woofer speaker with 98dB sensitivity and 30Hz extension.
True. To know exactly what a speaker will sound like you need SPL, polar response both vertical and horizontal, THD and waterfall charts. With all of those one can know exactly how a speaker will sound. The sad fact of the matter is that anyone can create all of those with this, so for a manufacturer not to do so is totally inexcusable:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-792
Actually to know exactly what a speaker will sound like you need to hear it. There are speakers that test great on the bench and sound like crap , and others that don't test well and sound.fantastic . What sounds good to you is different then what sounds good to me. If we all were looking for the same sound then bill could easily build that and we would all not.even need other speaker brands. For the 5% or less that find all the measurements critical for their purchase then tekton is not for them. The only thing inexcusable about tekton is their production times which if they don't improve will put him out of business .

A friend of mine is a professional musician for 30 years. He has heard his music thousands of times. He has a trained ear for the pitch and tone that his guitar and voice has. He came over and listened to his own cd on my oriel 10 and said there were good. Not the best he has heard ,but for the price I paid 850 , very good. I choose to put my review standards in ears , not measurements . I respect that you think differently . If there is not room for sides of this argument then its not a forum. If you want to talk science I know another audio engineer of 35 years who disagrees with your statement that you will know exactly what the speaker will sound like without hearing it.

My profession is teaching . I have taught for 17 years and over those years have taught nearly 5000 students . I teach woodwork to all the kids in my middle school every year. I can design a project on paper ,similar to what I have done before. I can think I have covered every variable . Then when I implement the project it falls flat. It looked great on paper ,but the kids didn't like it. They should have liked it , technically it was perfect.

I am not trying to convince you bill cuz I know I won't . You have stated your case many times and I'm not a.tekton fanboy. I am happy with my.purchase but wouldn't recommend them until he improves his production times. If avs is only about data , and hard science then it doesn't make.much sense why I like ac/dc pumping through my system . A dude screaming who sounds screechy , there songs all sound the same , and its in your face.

I am not going to have a back and forth dialogue arguing my post. I just posted my thoughts for others to read. Agree , disagree , laugh , or dismiss it. Fine with me.

Going to crank a little back in black !
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post #470 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 05:27 AM
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There are speakers that test great on the bench and sound like crap , and others that don't test well and sound.fantastic .
That falls into the category of popular myth. Lots of people repeat this tale, but never provide an example to back up the claim. Note that you didn't either.
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For the 5% or less that find all the measurements critical for their purchase then tekton is not for them.
What buyers base their decisions on isn't what's being talked about here. False advertising is.

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post #471 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 05:54 AM
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That falls into the category of popular myth. Lots of people repeat this tale, but never provide an example to back up the claim. Note that you didn't either.
What buyers base their decisions on isn't what's being talked about here. False advertising is.

Bill: Let me give you a couple examples...and see if you can edumicate me.

1) Ascend CBM-170SE. Measures very flat. I think most would look at the measurements and say...good speakers. And they are good speakers... But the Upper end is a tad "dead". No energy at the upper range -- Call it airy, call it energy, its just sort of flat to my ears.

2) Sonus Faber Venere 3.0 -- The charts are not that great. They are far from flat in some parts but they sound great to me.

I was also always told Zu audio measures are terrible they have a great sound...

I do agree with transparency ... Why hide stuff or even not be 1000% forthcoming... I might add when I was asking SVS for graphs of their Ultra line I got some marketing speak back...and assurances they were great speakers. Now I have heard the SVS Ultra and like them also...but they for sure have some weak points too.

Anyway...I know this is a Tekton board and I hope I am not carrying this even further off target but I have heard speakers that measured very well but were missing something and speakers that measured so-so that I thought sounded great.
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post

For fear that the Tekton owners may no longer be posting in this thread, can we get an owner's review of the Enzos? I plan on posting my thoughts on the M-Lores in the coming days.

If Bill said everything is great and perfect, you would all be thanking him.

I guess some of you prefer this kind of review:
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Yes, I'll say it, I believe the Pendragon competes, and favorably, with speakers along the line of Wilson Audio's MAXX 3 ($68,000), Wisdom Audio's LS4 ($70,000), and even pro speakers such as Meyer Sound X-10s ($30,000). Andrew Robinson, August 13, 2012
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post #473 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 07:23 AM
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Isn't that the same Andrew Robinson that also said Tekton was sponsoring his film project, Love In Training which has been shelved? The same Andrew Robinson who, from his posts, seems to have quite the cozy and advisory role with Tekton? He's no more a reviewer than than a coach who signs a deal with Nike and has his players use that brand when playing. Someomeought to check his blood alcohol level because he's been drinking that Tekton hard lemonade..

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post #474 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 07:41 AM
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Just to parlay ontop of what Newbie01 said....

The Ascend CBM-170se on axis graph seems to measure a bit better than the Ascend Sierra-1. I have both of them, and I can say the Sierra-1 sounds quite a bit better.


With that said, Bill said you need: " SPL, polar response both vertical and horizontal, THD and waterfall charts". I do not have, or know how to look at, them. For all I know, those graphs will show you the strengths of the Sierra over the 170se.
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post #475 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 07:54 AM
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This is why everyone tends to seek positive reinforcement of their decisions and discount things which threaten their decisions. Call it "group think" call it cognitive dissonance...

We all shake our heads and laugh at the people that follow this guy..who says he is a prophet and that Aliens are going to come and save them all...if they believe in him. Well the date comes and goes about 20 times but funny enough..the guys looses almost no followers...why?

Cognitive Dissonance.

Please...don't blow this out of proportion... I am not calling any group of speaker enthusiasts a cult... We just want to be right about things so we tend to only accept what reinforces our opinions and reject what does not. Human nature. I do it...you do it...we all do it.

Even Bill does it smile.gif

Cognitive dissonance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Cognitive dissonance theory explains human behavior by positing that people have a bias to seek consonance between their expectations and reality. According to Festinger, people engage in a process he termed "dissonance reduction", which can be achieved in one of three ways: lowering the importance of one of the discordant factors, adding consonant elements, or changing one of the dissonant factors.[6] This bias sheds light on otherwise puzzling, irrational, and even destructive behavior.
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post #476 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

If Bill said everything is great and perfect, you would all be thanking him.

I guess some of you prefer this kind of review:

Please re-read my posts. All of them and not just the last one. I was the one asking for Bill's unvarnished input. I couldn't care less if he said they were "perfect" or not. I was just asking for his knowledge on the science behind the speakers and felt like I may have derailed the thread somewhat for those also wanting reviews.

I do not want a review that is purporting to explain things that are in direct opposition to scientific norms, but I will read any review where the reviewer is explaining their experience.
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post #477 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 11:02 AM
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Isn't that the same Andrew Robinson that also said Tekton was sponsoring his film project, Love In Training which has been shelved?

FWIW Andrew was asked about this in the "comments" section from his website.

http://www.andrew-robinson-online.com/release-utah-based-loudspeaker-manufacturer-tekton-design-becomes-indie-films-professional-loudspeaker-sponsor/

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post #478 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post

Please re-read my posts. All of them and not just the last one. I was the one asking for Bill's unvarnished input. I couldn't care less if he said they were "perfect" or not. I was just asking for his knowledge on the science behind the speakers and felt like I may have derailed the thread somewhat for those also wanting reviews.

I do not want a review that is purporting to explain things that are in direct opposition to scientific norms, but I will read any review where the reviewer is explaining their experience.

I know you asked for Bill's advice, i was referring to the "Tekton owners may no longer be posting in this thread".

I apologize if that didn't come out correctly.
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post #479 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

I know you asked for Bill's advice, i was referring to the "Tekton owners may no longer be posting in this thread".

I apologize if that didn't come out correctly.

No problem. I see now you were using the general "you" and not the direct "you."
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post #480 of 1819 Old 04-18-2013, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Goride View Post

Just to parlay ontop of what Newbie01 said....

The Ascend CBM-170se on axis graph seems to measure a bit better than the Ascend Sierra-1. I have both of them, and I can say the Sierra-1 sounds quite a bit better.


With that said, Bill said you need: " SPL, polar response both vertical and horizontal, THD and waterfall charts". I do not have, or know how to look at, them. For all I know, those graphs will show you the strengths of the Sierra over the 170se.
+1. SPL charts alone don't tell the whole story. But it's a start.

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