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post #1261 of 1819 Old 09-11-2013, 11:12 AM
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Soundman5000,
If you need small, take a look at the SVS SB-1000. It's only 13" x 13" x 13". I've never heard that one but I own a couple of there bigger subs and I'm very happy with them.

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb-1000#.UjCx9Btwp8E

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post #1262 of 1819 Old 09-11-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

If I remember correctly it was blown tweeters on a lore model trying to play at pendragon levels. THe lore can't play music at 100db plus continous level. Can hit peaks of 100-105 but not steady. To me the issue wasn't the blown tweeter since we have no idea of all the circumstances. THe real problem was that it seemed like Eric didn't handle it well and didn't stand behind his product.

Obviously Bill's knowledge is ten times that of most who post here (30 times mine) but one statement from him that the crossover is amateurish and a dozen people will be quoting him like its the bible. I think it would be more fair to say the crossover is not done the way he would recommend and may lead to other issues. Without testing it like Dennis talked about we don't know.

With out a listening distance, SPL does not tell us anything. 100bd peaks at the speaker are pretty easy for most speakers. 100db peaks 15' to 20' from a speaker, much harder. Yes it is not done as Bill would do. I also doubt that it is done the way Saulk, Murphy, Wayne from Pi, JTR and many other speaker designers do. I believe they all follow the same basic rules for coil orientation. I don't know of any other respected custom designers that ignore the orientation of coils, do you?

This is the last I am going to say on this. It is not a huge deal, but it makes you wonder why.

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post #1263 of 1819 Old 09-11-2013, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

With out a listening distance, SPL does not tell us anything. 100bd peaks at the speaker are pretty easy for most speakers. 100db peaks 15' to 20' from a speaker, much harder. why.

I was assuming lp of around 10 feet. Sorry i often forget to be as detailed as I should.wink.gif
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post #1264 of 1819 Old 09-11-2013, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Soundman5000 View Post

Don't know yet? Good question...Thinking about ZU but to be honest I have not started my research yet but welcome any recommendations.

My room is small for the Pendragons as they are just physically in my way to be honest. I do need a very high efficient speakers as I primarily use a SET flea powered tube amps 5-7 wpc and I am 2 ch only.

I am into the vocal magic thing not the low bass as much. My amp builder is working on some open baffle designs but not at market yet.

Until I replace the Pens I will go back to me older Tektons that simply use a full range 4" Fostex as the vocal range is magical. However, I get nothing on the low end and the Pendragons have spoiled me with the " big sound" they have. I also have a old set of B&W matrix 3's and some horn Altecs I can use till I make a change.

Believe it or not I find I enjoy my near filed rig in my home office more than anything these days as I am at my computer so much.
I am amazed just what sitting close to a speaker can do using a quality near field setup.

You have mentioned Zu, and I would recommend you check them out more. I owned the Pendragons for a few months, and ended up keeping some Zu speakers (Omen Defs at that time) as I thought they were superior in the midrange area (vocals, guitars, etc.). That seems to be what you are looking for. You will not get the bass of the Pendragons from the Zus (unless you step up to the Definitions), but they are magical in the midrange. And as far as drama, the Zu folks are terrific to deal with.
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post #1265 of 1819 Old 09-12-2013, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The problem that I saw with the crossovers was the layout. There are basic rules for coil orientation on a crossover board and those basic rules were not followed, even though they could have easily been followed. http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/xover/xover.html#inductor

I was thinking I could orientate the coils myself.
I started reading up on crosstalk and it seems the acceptable distance is 2 inches or 5cm. They are further in my Enzo's, so I think I will leave them alone.
Someone went to the trouble to do some testing on this
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?236440-Crosstalk-measurements-between-inductors

Does not seem to be a problem as some are suggesting?

I have an amp here that when I power it off, I get a AM radio station playing through the speakers for around 10 or more seconds while the caps are discharging. The Amp is fine when running.
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post #1266 of 1819 Old 09-12-2013, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Soundman5000 View Post

I may go $3,500 but hope I do not have to do that.

I would like to spend what I get out of my Pendragons if possible or less.

The reason I ended up with the Pendragons is I was looking for the best sound for $ spent and needed a very efficient design.


My choice was based on the reviews a year ago. Price and the efficentcy spec of 98db. I have not taken measurements but I am wondering if then Pendragons are actually efficient as posted? 98dB 1W @ 1M is stated on the website. Anyone tested that?


They do sound big but wondering if they do give me the 98 db with a 1 watt input?

Again, I am looking for vocal magic... efficient, refined high end sound. I am OK with not as much low end as the Penndragons. I am fine with smaller speakers on stands as I think they can image better and a little bass roll off is fine but I like just a little bass extension but dont do subs for 2 ch.

The main buying requirment is NO COMPANY DRAMA!
I will pay double for no drama speakers and company that will stand behind the product.

I have not sold my Pens yet and don't want to take a step backwards but thinking it may be time for a change if I can find what I am looking for.

I hope I can find something without breaking the bank and will fit my room better and make good use of the tiny tube watts I use. I am ok buying used.

After years of working in the industry, selling the high $$$ audio I find it very rewarding to stumble on the inexpensive stuff that sounds great ; so, the search begins again...

Have you had a look at Tyler Acoustics pro dynamic range? High sensitivity speakers that can be powered by flea watt amps. They have used speakers for sale that are slightly cheaper than the new price. Right now they have the PD 30 for $3200.
http://www.tyleracoustics.com/pro_dynamics.html
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post #1267 of 1819 Old 09-21-2013, 04:43 AM
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So, I've had the new Pens for two days now. They sound great.
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post #1268 of 1819 Old 09-21-2013, 08:46 AM
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More details ... how long did they take to arrive since ordering ? What are they replacing ?
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post #1269 of 1819 Old 09-21-2013, 12:02 PM
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I received the Pens and center speaker seven weeks after I placed my order.
I'm replacing the older Athena F2 system.
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post #1270 of 1819 Old 09-21-2013, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspectr View Post

I received the Pens and center speaker seven weeks after I placed my order.
I'm replacing the older Athena F2 system.
Looks like production times for speakers is improving , not for grills I guess.
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post #1271 of 1819 Old 09-21-2013, 03:28 PM
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Eric tells me that this problem is being worked on. Who knows?
He did say they were making grills that are similar to the Wilson grills.
My speakers have no holes, so I'm not sure how they will be attached.
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post #1272 of 1819 Old 09-21-2013, 04:35 PM
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So, I've had the new Pens for two days now. They sound great.


What speakers have you heard and had in the past? It's really not that credible if your previous speakers were $200.00 Sony's..
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post #1273 of 1819 Old 09-21-2013, 04:51 PM
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What speakers have you heard and had in the past? It's really not that credible if your previous speakers were $200.00 Sony's..
Read the above post. He said athena v2 which were entry level towers. He isn't saying to others to buy them so I don't think it matters what he has heard . If he goes onto other threads and recommends them to others then to me it would.matter what his reference is. It hasn't been the sound quality that is the pendragons biggest concern . Its been communication and production times.
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post #1274 of 1819 Old 09-22-2013, 01:34 PM
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We are.aware.of the dbt. I'm not.interested in meeting the standards of the measurement club. Won't be taking fr sweeps. Will make sure levels similar but not to .2 levels and won't be switching every 5 seconds.
Do whatever you like. smile.gif
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One thing I will do is play some scenes at 3db's louder on purpose to see if it actually does sway my decision .. don't need links about bias and stuff. Mainly I'm relying on my ears and my subjective bias biggrin.gif
It may not work out. One problem is that the memory involved is valid for seconds. The second problem is assumption bias.

But we all must work with the tools we have at hand. I know i really would live to own one of the level-matching switches I used to audition the Salk's... but I don't. I hope you find something you love biggrin.gif
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post #1275 of 1819 Old 09-22-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

If I remember correctly it was blown tweeters on a lore model trying to play at pendragon levels. THe lore can't play music at 100db plus continous level.
That would mean that the Lore cannot take 2w RMS (101db@1m). Is that your claim?

2 watts is too much for the Lore to take continuously?

10w should be 108db (which would allow for a listening position between 6 and 12 feet at >100db). If the Lore cannot take 10w, it's a bad (or very badly mis-spec'd) speaker.
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Can hit peaks of 100-105 but not steady. To me the issue wasn't the blown tweeter since we have no idea of all the circumstances. THe real problem was that it seemed like Eric didn't handle it well and didn't stand behind his product.

According to the spec sheet, it should (at absolute minimum) take peaks of 121db (200w). That's the speaker's rating.
Quote:
Obviously Bill's knowledge is ten times that of most who post here (30 times mine) but one statement from him that the crossover is amateurish and a dozen people will be quoting him like its the bible. I think it would be more fair to say the crossover is not done the way he would recommend and may lead to other issues. Without testing it like Dennis talked about we don't know.

Bill knows a lot, and has a lot wrong as well. Unfortunately, he's not open to accepting his errors, which is likely why they still exist. You do illustrate a good example of that here. Testing (or at least modeling) would be required to do more than guess.
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post #1276 of 1819 Old 09-22-2013, 02:43 PM
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How do you.get 10 watts to produce 108 db at 3m for listening position . Your not. Even. Close. Used crowns. Calculator. And it takes 180 watts to produce 108 db with 3db headroom.
Nothing is wrong with the lore tweeter . That audax model is on other speakers from other companies . Its not that I don't like.my tektons , its that I have been bitten by the diy bug. Building my.own sub starting next week . Your right about bill ... he is stubborn , but so am I.
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post #1277 of 1819 Old 09-22-2013, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

How do you.get 10 watts to produce 108 db at 3m for listening position . Your not. Even. Close. Used crowns. Calculator. And it takes 180 watts to produce 108 db with 3db headroom.
Nothing is wrong with the lore tweeter . That audax model is on other speakers from other companies . Its not that I don't like.my tektons , its that I have been bitten by the diy bug. Building my.own sub starting next week . Your right about bill ... he is stubborn , but so am I.

The Pendragon's claim 98db at 1w @ 1m listening distance, correct? If you put two watts into the speaker, they do 101db at 1m. If you put 10 watts into that same speaker, they will produce 108db at 1m. If you put 200 watts into the speaker, they will do 121db @ 1m. Greater than 1 meter of listening distance will lower the db @ the listening position, but everything that Jerry posted is correct. If the Lores can't play 100db, then that means that they cannot (if the 98db @ 1w is indeed actually a correct spec) handle much more than 1 watt of power.
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post #1278 of 1819 Old 09-22-2013, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

The Pendragon's claim 98db at 1w @ 1m listening distance, correct? If you put two watts into the speaker, they do 101db at 1m. If you put 10 watts into that same speaker, they will produce 108db at 1m. If you put 200 watts into the speaker, they will do 121db @ 1m. Greater than 1 meter of listening distance will lower the db @ the listening position, but everything that Jerry posted is correct. If the Lores can't play 100db, then that means that they cannot (if the 98db @ 1w is indeed actually a correct spec) handle much more than 1 watt of power.

Nope. The lores can handle.much more.then 1 watt. Is the 98 db accurate .... I don't know. They are.very sensative since I can play at reference level for movies off a denon 90 watt receiver with lots of room to spare and still clear in sound.

I also don't care that the behinger inuke amp inflates there watt specs.
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post #1279 of 1819 Old 09-22-2013, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Nope. The lores can handle.much more.then 1 watt. Is the 98 db accurate .... I don't know. They are.very sensative since I can play at reference level for movies off a denon 90 watt receiver with lots of room to spare and still clear in sound.

I also don't care that the behinger inuke amp inflates there watt specs.

Who says that inuke did? What does Tekton claim for this speaker?

I'm not entirely sure if you understand the math as it relates to db and wattage. Again, if Tekton is claiming 98db with 1w @ 1 meter, the math does apply as Jerry stated.

That's it. You challenged his number claims of db rating. He's correct.

Aside from that, I would stay very, very far away from a speaker that could not handle 100db. Even a speaker with 6 db less sensitivity (92db with 1 watt @ 1m speaker) would cross over 100db (at 1 meter) with 10 watts of power applied.
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post #1280 of 1819 Old 09-22-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

Who says that inuke did? What does Tekton claim for this speaker?

I'm not entirely sure if you understand the math as it relates to db and wattage. Again, if Tekton is claiming 98db with 1w @ 1 meter, the math does apply as Jerry stated.

That's it. You challenged his number claims of db rating. He's correct.

Aside from that, I would stay very, very far away from a speaker that could not handle 100db. Even a speaker with 6 db less sensitivity (92db with 1 watt @ 1m speaker) would cross over 100db (at 1 meter) with 10 watts of power applied.

Dude do you own the speaker ? No , so take your measurements and stuff it. I am the one with the speaker in my room with a spl meter and see the numbers between 95-105. For long periods of time. I am done with the tekton thread , it attracts people who simply want to argue the merits of the speaker without ever hearing it.. then argue numbers. Don't even bother to reply because I am unsubscribing and won't. Waste my cell phone battery with future replies
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post #1281 of 1819 Old 09-22-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Dude do you own the speaker ? No , so take your measurements and stuff it

Uhhh...excuse me?
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I am the one with the speaker in my room with a spl meter and see the numbers between 95-105. For long periods of time.

Then it can safely play above 100db.

However, you said;
Quote:
THe lore can't play music at 100db plus continous level.

Is there a contradiction here?
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I am done with the tekton thread , it attracts people who simply want to argue the merits of the speaker without ever hearing it.. then argue numbers.

But you argued the claims of numbers and sound pressure level that the speakers could handle. And someone else challenged it. Why are you complaining then? Because you're not necessarily right?
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post #1282 of 1819 Old 09-22-2013, 09:23 PM
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LOL. This is a funny thread.
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post #1283 of 1819 Old 09-23-2013, 12:22 AM
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I think a point can be made that if nominal levels are that high one is no longer listening to music. This is true for any playback system. Now back to twerkercise.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #1284 of 1819 Old 09-23-2013, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Dude do you own the speaker ? No , so take your measurements and stuff it. I am the one with the speaker in my room with a spl meter and see the numbers between 95-105. For long periods of time. I am done with the tekton thread , it attracts people who simply want to argue the merits of the speaker without ever hearing it.. then argue numbers. Don't even bother to reply because I am unsubscribing and won't. Waste my cell phone battery with future replies

By that logic, since you've not blown your own tweeter 1) you shouldn't discuss what blows tweeters as you don't know and 2) You can play 100db+ "for long periods of time".

I fear that some of the advocates of Tekton are doing the line a disservice.
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post #1285 of 1819 Old 09-23-2013, 01:10 AM
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Interesting thread and interesting speakers. Alot of good reviews but how many ofthese owners have listened to mid-level speakers before these? If you are going from a $100 HTIB system to the Pendragons, ofcourse they will sound great. But how many owners have directly compared the Pendragons to other ID companies products that have also gotten praise from the owners?

It would be interesting if any owners of maybe the Ascend Towers with RAAL tweeters can compare them? From what I imagie, the Tekton Pendragons will play BIG but everything else would just be mediocore. You simply cannot get around it, look at the tweeters they are using.
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post #1286 of 1819 Old 09-23-2013, 12:14 PM
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LOL. This is a funny thread.

Haha, I admit I mostly check this thread for the comedy. Yesterday a guy told another guy to go **** himself but the post was removed. I think it's the same guy that told someone to "take his measurements and stuff them" smile.gif but I could be wrong.


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post #1287 of 1819 Old 09-23-2013, 12:19 PM
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That was me who the member "Inspectr" told me to go **** myself because I asked him what speakers he was using before his new Pendragons. LOL.
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post #1288 of 1819 Old 09-23-2013, 12:22 PM
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I fear that some of the advocates of Tekton are doing the line a disservice.

I would agree with that wholeheartedly. What I am seeing are many new or new-ish members of AVS who are coming in and causing a lot of confusion for prospective owners. I'm also seeing a lack of basic technical understanding of speaker performance & frustration over that.
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post #1289 of 1819 Old 09-23-2013, 12:24 PM
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Haha, I admit I mostly check this thread for the comedy. Yesterday a guy told another guy to go **** himself but the post was removed. I think it's the same guy that told someone to "take his measurements and stuff them" smile.gif but I could be wrong.

LOL
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post #1290 of 1819 Old 09-23-2013, 12:40 PM
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This is the most entertaining thread in the AVS forum.
I saw those same 2 posts and was wondering what happened to them.
One guy made a simple statement saying how much he liked his Pendragons and some one else made a snobbish comment about the OP's opinion being worthless because he may have been used to "cheap speakers".
Than the original poster retorted with the classic "go f""k yourself" reply but both of those posts have disappeared. I guess the moderators are trying to keep things civilized. smile.gif

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