Tekton Pendragon - Page 52 - AVS Forum
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post #1531 of 1819 Old 12-06-2013, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post

Those eminence drivers will take 50 hours to sound decent and more to really hit their stride.

Is it possible that the Pen location has resulted in the listening position being in a bass null? Disconnect the subs and listen...and crawl around the floor and listen.

Is it possible that the subs are a problem...disconnect the Pens and just listen to the subs including the crawl to see where they sound best. If they don't have their best bass at the listening position then they may need moved.

Finally, the Pens go deep...why cross them at all..
Run them full range and use the subs to augment from 35 hz down.

Switching to full range definitely helped.  There is definitely some 'fighting' with the sub and speakers in some areas of the room...very strange how there can be 'pockets' where the bass is very pronounced and others where it isn't very noticeable.  Unfortunately there isn't a lot of usable width to the room because of the chimney so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to move the sub relative to the fronts but I'll keep playing with it.  Thanks!

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post #1532 of 1819 Old 12-06-2013, 05:39 PM
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Sometimes you don't have to move subs or speakers 6" to a foot to get big differences...so don't be afraid to try. .also, time will improve the Pens...
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post #1533 of 1819 Old 12-07-2013, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by arexsvn View Post

Switching to full range definitely helped.  

Not running your Pendragons "full range" is like buying a Porsche 911 and driving it 30 mph around a parking lot! eek.gif

Take those speakers on the open road and go man!

They really need some time to break in properly. Trust me, the bass will bloom like a motherhumper and you'll have some serious, gut punching accurate bass at that. Hope you're on good terms with your neighbors! biggrin.gif

Wait till you hook them up to some quality amplification. AVR's are ok, but tubes and higher end SS will rock your face off on the Pendragons.

Good luck and report back your impressions!
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post #1534 of 1819 Old 12-07-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by arexsvn View Post

very strange how there can be 'pockets' where the bass is very pronounced and others where it isn't very noticeable.

Two words: room treatments smile.gif
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post #1535 of 1819 Old 12-08-2013, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by arexsvn View Post

I've just received a set of two Pendragons and had some questions about setup.  I am new to this forum and this is my first set of decent speakers so I apologize in advance if any of these have been answered before.

Just some details about my setup:

Room :  Home is an 'open concept' with post and beam construction so doesn't have a normal layout.  About 22 feet long, 24 feet wide, and 12 foot ceilings at the highest point.  There is a massive chimney in the middle of the room.

Receiver : onkyo 818 (not using any separate amps, but am considering adding a Crown NXLS2000 to drive the fronts)
Sub : ADS MS3-u

Pendragons are spaced 2 feet from the back wall and six feet apart from each other.  About two inches of toe-in.

Center/Surrounds/Surround Rears : Carried over from my last system which was a onkyo htib.  Plan on upgrading these eventually, but wanted to get the fronts upgraded first as I mainly use the setup for listening to music.

So far I'm pretty blown away by the sound but have noticed that the bass doesn't have as much 'impact' as I would've expected.  I know that most reviews seem to emphasize this aspect so I'm guessing something about my setup is off.  I'm getting a nice full range of sound, it just seems like the power in the mid and lower range isn't quite there.  I'm not expecting subwoofer levels of bass but by the size of the drivers it seems like there should be a significant 'punch'.

Some causes might be:

1.  Insufficient 'break-in'.  I've only played them for about 5 hours so far, not sure what kind of difference waiting the recommended break-in time will make (I've read 40-200hrs).
2.  Insufficient amp power - The 818 is a pretty lowly receiver for this caliber of speaker so maybe it is to blame?  The thing is I can play them plenty loud without distortion, but the bass impact doesn't seem to scale up with the higher volume like I expected.  Would more amp power improve this?  Also, the woofers don't seem to move much even at high volume...is this normal with these speakers or do other owners notice much movement while playing loud?
3.  Bad room setup - I used the audessy xt32 setup of the 818 which seemed to apply good settings (the pendragons are crossed over at 40 hz).  Not sure if the distance from the back wall or the weirdness of the room in general might be robbing some of the bass impact.  I've tried running from multiple sources with audessy enabled and disabled and while the sound definitely changes the bass performance seems similar.
4.  I've read one post in these forums from user 'Brouham' that he had the speaker terminals reversed so that the positive terminal was connected to the black (negative) binding post and vice versa.  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446325/tekton-pendragon/150
Has anyone encountered this with their Pendragons?  How would I test something like that?

Thanks for any input.

My 2 cents based on my past experience and the fact that you say " I mainly use the setup for listening to music"

May I suggest having a dedicated 2 ch music system based around your new Pendragons?

I know I will get many folks that will not agree with me on a AV form full of theater guys but my thoughts is that it is hard to find one system that will do everything well but I also understand having a bunch of AV systems is not practical for most people. However, a simple modest system consisting of the Pendragons with a CD or vinyl or high res file, direct into to a 2 ch amp is something special. No digital processing or crossover junk or unmatched center channel speaker or boomy subwoofer getting in the way... We only have 2 ears, so why do we need 7 to 10 speakers for music?

( let the theater guys come after the 2 ch guy on the form) biggrin.gif I am not completely out of touch as I did go to a IMAX theater last weekend but I will always use a 2 ch system for my music.

I am biased and an audio purist that thinks a bass and treble control get in the way of music but hey thats what my ears tell me... The simplest, shortest path from the source to my ear is my preference.

Sounds to me you may have a few weak links in you system compared to the quality of the Pendragon? I am from the school that you are only as good as your weakest link. Crossing over those Pens and such you may be doing more harm than good, is my thinking anyway.

My suggestion for now before purchasing anything is to unhook everything but the Pendragons, your Onkyo and a source. Set it up in basic 2 ch mode with no processing...To give you a starting point and do some listening over a day or so this way. If possible I would move those speakers all over the place. My Pens are close to the wall as I have no choice but you may want to move them out a bit and spread them out depending on the listening location. Then start adding subs and center speakers after a day or so and see if you are adding or taking away from that special sound you are looking for.

Check your speaker phasing both on your end and internally in your speakers via a battery and or ear or Google speaker phasing test.

Some friends of mine in local band a few years back purchased a large new Carvin PA system. They were adding sub after sub chasing more low end.
After a listen and some investigation I found they had a brand new Carvin power amp from the factory that was internally wire out of phase on one side.

In the pro world I don't trust any speakers builder so In a pinch I have used a 1.5 v battery on my speaker terminals many times over the years to make sure the woofers are all going the same direction. I have seen many a speakers box wired wrong internally. Humans do put these together so it can happen.

The room... In the past I had a room that was so bad I could get almost no low end out of my system but my neighbors could hear my low end perfect!
I added a sub and it just made my neighbors more mad at me and did nothing in my room. I sold the sub and just gave up till I moved.

Based on your description of your room I would bet It sounds nice but rooms can be great or horrible.

I am in a different room now that still has challenges and is a work in progress but I am playing around with room treatments. I am a fan of the rather cheep Auralex bass traps for low end issues.

Last time I checked Sams club sold cheep theater panels online that are priced nice and includes shipping but I had to find the bass traps on Amazon.

Also the Pendragons will start to open up after some break-in...50 - 100 hours I would guess...

Long story short, I would start with only 2 channels and move those Pens all over the place and find a sweet spot in your room. Doing this will tell you if you have a room issue. I would then move to room treatments and then you will have plenty of time to add amps, and such but proper placement and wiring is the 1st step IMO.
In my pro experience a great system in a bad room = a bad sounding system.
Good Luck!
)
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post #1536 of 1819 Old 12-08-2013, 06:37 AM
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You might beinterestedto know that when Bell Labs demonstrated stereo reproduction in 1933 they used three speakers for two ears. Two sells better though.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #1537 of 1819 Old 12-08-2013, 08:14 AM
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Quote:

 Sounds to me you may have a few weak links in you system compared to the quality of the Pendragon? I am from the school that you are only as good as your weakest link. Crossing over those Pens and such you may be doing more harm than good, is my thinking anyway.

My suggestion for now before purchasing anything is to unhook everything but the Pendragons, your Onkyo and a source. Set it up in basic 2 ch mode with no processing...To give you a starting point and do some listening over a day or so this way. If possible I would move those speakers all over the place. My Pens are close to the wall as I have no choice but you may want to move them out a bit and spread them out depending on the listening location. Then start adding subs and center speakers after a day or so and see if you are adding or taking away from that special sound you are looking for.

 

Onkyo avr's have a 'pure audio' mode that supposedly bypasses the dsp, audessy, etc for stereo listening that seems to work pretty well for music.  With this mode and the pendragons running without crossover I'm noticing a big improvement to music listening.  It also makes it easier to position them w/o the added complexity of other factors like you said.

 

Depending on how the break-in goes I was thinking of a separate amp running though my onkyo's pre-outs as a next step.  A dedicated stereo setup would of course be even better...but I've heard that other users have been happy with just using the pre-outs so I'll probably see how well that works first.

 

Definitely some 'weak links' in the setup at least for home theater, as my surrounds are pretty crappy :).  My thinking with upgrading the fronts first was to get a nice setup for music and then eventually upgrade the surrounds.   I think the full 'Pendragon theater' might be a bit much for my room so hoping there might be some bookshelf sized surrounds that would sound ok with the Pens.  Is anyone running any non-tekton speakers for surrounds that they've been happy with?  

 

Having tried a few different positions for the pens I''ve definitely noticed improvement.  I think I had too much toe-in for how far the fronts were from each other which caused some weirdness in my primary listening area.

 

Thanks for the advice about phase tests, I'll definitely read up on that a bit more today.  Having listened to the speakers a lot the past couple days I doubt anything that drastic is wrong but would be good to verify it anyway.  Thanks for the pics on those room treatments...I know I need something for echo at the very least but I'll have to look into the bass trap. 

 

 
Quote:
 They really need some time to break in properly. Trust me, the bass will bloom like a motherhumper and you'll have some serious, gut punchingaccurate bass at that. Hope you're on good terms with your neighbors! biggrin.gif

 

Nice!  Even from just an additional few days of listening I've noticed some improvement so good to know they'll only get better.  Thankfully I'm in heavily wooded area with some distance from neighbors so I don't have to worry about bothering them.  It might help keep deer away though.

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post #1538 of 1819 Old 12-08-2013, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

You might beinterestedto know that when Bell Labs demonstrated stereo reproduction in 1933 they used three speakers for two ears. Two sells better though.

Interesting.  My Dad used to work there and has some good stories.  I guess he was involved with some pre-mpeg sound compression research.  He demo'd what his group thought was a good solution at the time and was surprised how quickly one of the more discriminating listeners identified what was missing without even knowing the details of the algorithm.

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post #1539 of 1819 Old 12-08-2013, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arexsvn View Post

Receiver : onkyo 818 (not using any separate amps, but am considering adding a Crown NXLS2000 to drive the fronts)
Sub : ADS MS3-u
I'm not terribly familiar with that sub, but looking at the quick-specs; it might be a bit under-powered... especially with only one of them.
Quote:
1.  Insufficient 'break-in'.  I've only played them for about 5 hours so far, not sure what kind of difference waiting the recommended break-in time will make (I've read 40-200hrs).
No
Quote:
2.  Insufficient amp power - The 818 is a pretty lowly receiver for this caliber of speaker so maybe it is to blame?  The thing is I can play them plenty loud without distortion, but the bass impact doesn't seem to scale up with the higher volume like I expected.  Would more amp power improve this?  Also, the woofers don't seem to move much even at high volume...is this normal with these speakers or do other owners notice much movement while playing loud?
Not if the specs on the Pendragons are accurate. What SPL are you actually trying to play them at?
Quote:
3.  Bad room setup - I used the audessy xt32 setup of the 818 which seemed to apply good settings (the pendragons are crossed over at 40 hz).  Not sure if the distance from the back wall or the weirdness of the room in general might be robbing some of the bass impact.  I've tried running from multiple sources with audessy enabled and disabled and while the sound definitely changes the bass performance seems similar.
Pretty sure you have a winner there. You've got bass nulls, standing waves, or the like interfering. This is a very common cause of <200Hz problems. The sub should likely be moved, and you may want to consider running multiple subs.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1004573/setting-up-your-subwoofer-101
Quote:
4.  I've read one post in these forums from user 'Brouham' that he had the speaker terminals reversed so that the positive terminal was connected to the black (negative) binding post and vice versa.  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446325/tekton-pendragon/150
Has anyone encountered this with their Pendragons?  How would I test something like that?
If the problem is with the main terminals, you can test it by reversing the terminals on one speaker and not the other.

If the manufacturer hooked up one of the 5 drivers backwards... that's gonna be much more obnoxious. It's fixable with nothing but a screwdriver, but still: hope that's not it.
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post #1540 of 1819 Old 12-09-2013, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I couldn't believe it but today I rec'd the Tekton nameplates. Eric finally came through. They are small stick on labels but it's better than nothing.

Ken
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post #1541 of 1819 Old 12-09-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kensmith48 View Post

I couldn't believe it but today I rec'd the Tekton nameplates. Eric finally came through. They are small stick on labels but it's better than nothing.

Ken

Nice.  I was going to mention that the speakers I received last week had the nameplates on them, so maybe those are standard now.  My speakers shipped very quickly too, so maybe things are getting a bit more organized over there.

 

The speaker grills haven't changed, unfortunately :)  Now that they're on they're not too bad.

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post #1542 of 1819 Old 12-09-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post


I'm not terribly familiar with that sub, but looking at the quick-specs; it might be a bit under-powered... especially with only one of them.
No
Not if the specs on the Pendragons are accurate. What SPL are you actually trying to play them at?
Pretty sure you have a winner there. You've got bass nulls, standing waves, or the like interfering. This is a very common cause of <200Hz problems. The sub should likely be moved, and you may want to consider running multiple subs.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1004573/setting-up-your-subwoofer-101
If the problem is with the main terminals, you can test it by reversing the terminals on one speaker and not the other.

If the manufacturer hooked up one of the 5 drivers backwards... that's gonna be much more obnoxious. It's fixable with nothing but a screwdriver, but still: hope that's not it.

Thanks for the link about the subs...I've been digging into it a bit.  I actually have a fairly decent older sub but didn't have it hooked up because I figured running unmatched subs would be problematic, but looks like it is possible with some testing.  

 

As far as listening levels I usually have it around reference.  The sound seems plenty loud and distortion free at that level so maybe a new amp isn't a critical upgrade right away.

 

With my current placement I've loving the Pens, especially for music.  Now just need to get some decent surrounds in the mix.

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post #1543 of 1819 Old 12-09-2013, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arexsvn View Post

Thanks for the link about the subs...I've been digging into it a bit.  I actually have a fairly decent older sub but didn't have it hooked up because I figured running unmatched subs would be problematic, but looks like it is possible with some testing.  

As far as listening levels I usually have it around reference.  The sound seems plenty loud and distortion free at that level so maybe a new amp isn't a critical upgrade right away.
That's 105db peaks , which at 4m listening distance would be between 111db and 117db at 1m, which would push a 97db sensitive speaker to 100w; and I don't think the Pendragons actually measure at 97db.

So "maybe there's a problem and maybe not"
Quote:
With my current placement I've loving the Pens, especially for music.  Now just need to get some decent surrounds in the mix.
Sounds like the issue is sub power/placement.
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post #1544 of 1819 Old 12-09-2013, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arexsvn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensmith48 View Post

I couldn't believe it but today I rec'd the Tekton nameplates. Eric finally came through. They are small stick on labels but it's better than nothing.


Ken
Nice.  I was going to mention that the speakers I received last week had the nameplates on them, so maybe those are standard now.  My speakers shipped very quickly too, so maybe things are getting a bit more organized over there.

The speaker grills haven't changed, unfortunately smile.gif  Now that they're on they're not too bad.

So did you get the new foam looking so called grills? If so, would you please post a pic of the grill attached to your speakers so we all can see? THX...
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post #1545 of 1819 Old 12-10-2013, 03:50 AM
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Arexsvn, when you'll said your speakers shipped with a nameplate did you mean it was a stick on label?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #1546 of 1819 Old 12-10-2013, 02:51 PM
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My speakers came with nameplates.
They were upside down. But they sound good!!
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post #1547 of 1819 Old 12-10-2013, 07:44 PM
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Arexsvn, when you'll said your speakers shipped with a nameplate did you mean it was a stick on label?

They came affixed to the bottom of the speaker...not sure how they are attached.

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post #1548 of 1819 Old 12-10-2013, 07:46 PM
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So did you get the new foam looking so called grills? If so, would you please post a pic of the grill attached to your speakers so we all can see? THX...

here's a shot with the 'grill' on.

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post #1549 of 1819 Old 12-10-2013, 09:17 PM
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Cool...Are those the new foam ones with velcro or did Eric go back to making the grills the regular way with a wood frame? Nice looking other gear you have as well; thanks for posting!
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post #1550 of 1819 Old 12-11-2013, 05:49 AM
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TektonNameplate.jpg 1621k .jpg file

Speaking of nameplates, here is the nameplate that came already affixed to my Lore grills. Its about 1.5" long x 1/4" wide and about 3/32 deep. The composition appears to be a hard vinyl or plastic with a sticky back.. Given that these Lores are black with black grills, the nameplate is probably best described as minimalistic or understated.
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post #1551 of 1819 Old 12-11-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Soundman5000 View Post

Cool...Are those the new foam ones with velcro or did Eric go back to making the grills the regular way with a wood frame? Nice looking other gear you have as well; thanks for posting!

Yeah it was basically a big chunk of foam with some velcro stickers I had to put on.  Was expecting more of a wood frame but oh well :)

 

Yeah i just have my receiver just sitting on my sub...not sure if that is kosher :)  All my av stuff is in a wacky custom cabinet I inherited...it has a speaker type grill on the front which is nice as my remotes go through it and i can put my center inside.

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post #1552 of 1819 Old 12-11-2013, 04:30 PM
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Is your TV small, or are the Pens just that big? (some how that is sounding like a joke - but not to be one).
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post #1553 of 1819 Old 12-11-2013, 04:36 PM
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I would guess its about a 47/50" TV, and yes the Pendragons are that big;)
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post #1554 of 1819 Old 12-11-2013, 04:41 PM
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If anyone ends up with an extra nameplate, I need one for my center channel:)
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post #1555 of 1819 Old 12-11-2013, 05:09 PM
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If anyone ends up with an extra nameplate, I need one for my center channel:)
What , the dude who sold you didn't give you.one !
I just sold my oriels on ebay.
Here's a pic of.my.new speakers I just finished today
va7erura.jpg
They will eventually be my rears.
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post #1556 of 1819 Old 12-11-2013, 05:31 PM
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What , the dude who sold you didn't give you.one !
I just sold my oriels on ebay.
Here's a pic of.my.new speakers I just finished today
va7erura.jpg
They will eventually be my rears.
LOL - Nice, new speakers look awesome. I saw you had them on Ebay and 2 days later when I checked the auction was ended. Here is a pic of your ol'center;)
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post #1557 of 1819 Old 12-11-2013, 05:53 PM
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Looks.good. what are those impressive amps you have ? eek.gif
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post #1558 of 1819 Old 12-11-2013, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Looks.good. what are those impressive amps you have ? eek.gif

Some Monster power there! biggrin.gif
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post #1559 of 1819 Old 12-12-2013, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by daneckert View Post

Is your TV small, or are the Pens just that big? (some how that is sounding like a joke - but not to be one).
It's a 46....definitely need an upgrade to go with the massive sound smile.gif
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post #1560 of 1819 Old 12-12-2013, 07:34 AM
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Thanks, been running these amps for 7 years now with no issues. I had an extra Monster MPA3250 and sold it in eBay because I was not using it. Also getting married this next year. And UPS completely destroyed it. Now I have a 100lbs paper weight and I am out eBay fees:(
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