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post #1621 of 1819 Old 01-29-2014, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

That was a really funny rant filled with lots of false assumptions and incorrect conclusions based on those false assumptions! Well done. I would imagine your cable design methodology is similar. wink.gif

I sure hope my methodology is the complete opposite of yours.
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post #1622 of 1819 Old 01-29-2014, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post


I sure hope my methodology is the complete opposite of yours.

It has to be, you are selling snake ...

Luxury audio cables "Capable of incredible softness and extreme violence." 

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post #1623 of 1819 Old 01-29-2014, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

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Originally Posted by realmensrea View Post

I guess intellectual snobbery is alive and well. So, is it true Bill you never need to audition a speaker, but rather make your purchasing decision based solely on the specs?
I don't buy speakers. But if I did I could make that choice from the specs alone, just as I can pick up my bass or my guitar and play a song that I've never heard by reading the sheet music.
Speakers and sound reproduction can all be boiled down to simple math. The hard part is learning the math, just as the hard part with reading music is figuring out what those lines and symbols mean. Once that's done the rest is practical experience. Where both reading music and designing speakers is concerned I've got 47 years in...so far. cool.gif

Hey Bill, As you are a bass player I ask...do all brands of guitar strings sound the same based on math? An A 440 played on the exact same bass guitar using Ernie Ball strings should sound the same as a A 440 using Dean Markley strings as an A 400 is an A 440 right?

Is the difference in bass strings not like the difference in speakers as they may measure the same but sound different?
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post #1624 of 1819 Old 01-29-2014, 08:32 PM
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Hey Bill, As you are a bass player I ask...do all brands of guitar strings sound the same based on math? An A 440 played on the exact same bass guitar using Ernie Ball strings should sound the same as a A 440 using Dean Markley strings as an A 400 is an A 440 right?
Is the difference in bass strings not like the difference in speakers as they may measure the same but sound different?
If they sound different they measure different. While 440Hz may be the fundamental of an A note (though not one usually played on the electric bass, which would more likely be 55 or 110Hz) most of what is heard is the harmonics of that fundamental. Different string constructions will result in different harmonic configurations, so they will sound and measure differently. That's also one of the reasons why the same note played on different instruments sound and measure different. The fundamental frequency is the same, but the harmonic content is not. If a note played on a piano had the exact same harmonic content as the same note played on a cello, along with the same attack, hold and release characteristics, you would not be able to tell them apart.
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post #1625 of 1819 Old 01-29-2014, 08:43 PM
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At least NagysAudio is trying to engage in coherent discourse.

beaveav's points, as far as I can see, are little more than bald statements, ad hominem attacks and disparaging remarks about someone's profession. Not cool at all.
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post #1626 of 1819 Old 01-29-2014, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman5000 View Post

Hey Bill, As you are a bass player I ask...do all brands of guitar strings sound the same based on math? An A 440 played on the exact same bass guitar using Ernie Ball strings should sound the same as a A 440 using Dean Markley strings as an A 400 is an A 440 right?
Is the difference in bass strings not like the difference in speakers as they may measure the same but sound different?
If they sound different they measure different. While 440Hz may be the fundamental of an A note (though not one usually played on the electric bass, which would more likely be 55 or 110Hz) most of what is heard is the harmonics of that fundamental. Different string constructions will result in different harmonic configurations, so they will sound and measure differently. That's also one of the reasons why the same note played on different instruments sound and measure different. The fundamental frequency is the same, but the harmonic content is not. If a note played on a piano had the exact same harmonic content as the same note played on a cello, along with the same attack, hold and release characteristics, you would not be able to tell them apart.[/qu

Correct me if I am wrong but one cannot measure all those things that make a Stradivarius sound like a Stradivarius.
IMO, the same thought applies to a quality speakers no? The Choice of wood, internal bracing etc may sound more pleasing to ones ear but not translate into a spec or measurement, no?
I just do not see how anyone could purchase a speaker ( or a musical instrument) based on specs alone.
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post #1627 of 1819 Old 01-29-2014, 09:14 PM
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Same goes for all audio electronics and even cables. Complex tones in the audible range (20Hz-20kHz) can have harmonics which reach into the hundreds of kHz. SACDs can have harmonics into the MHz region. At these frequencies it's important to have proper impedance terminations. There's time and phase problems. Uneven energy storage. RF pickup. Plus many things we don't have the ability to measure yet, or even know about. All of those little details add up and when everything is just right a recording can all of a sudden take on a life of its own and seem strangely real. It's that elusive high that we audiophiles are always after.

It's super simple to make a speaker as Bill and Beaveav proposes. But to get the synergy of the entire system just right to an individual's ear only happens by trying and luck.
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post #1628 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 06:26 AM
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So how is everybody enjoying those Tekton Pendragon speakers?wink.gif
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post #1629 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Soundman5000 View Post

Correct me if I am wrong but one cannot measure all those things that make a Stradivarius sound like a Stradivarius.
One can measure exactly what makes a Strad sound like a Strad. Determining how Stradivarius got his instruments to resonate with the particular harmonic content that they exhibit is a different question. That too could be answered if one were to conduct spectral analysis of the materials, but as you'd have to sacrifice a million dollar instrument to do so no one is all that eager to.
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IMO, the same thought applies to a quality speakers no? The Choice of wood, internal bracing etc may sound more pleasing to ones ear but not translate into a spec or measurement, no?
If it can be heard it can be measured. Our ability to measure what we hear surpassed the resolution and accuracy that our ear/brain is capable of in the 1930s. Anyone who says "I know what I'm hearing'" should have no problem drawing SPL, waterfall and polar charts of what they're hearing, whereas IME those who claim to have Golden Ears can't even read said charts.
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I just do not see how anyone could purchase a speaker ( or a musical instrument) based on specs alone.
I can't read the Odyssey in the original language. That doesn't mean that no one can.
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But to get the synergy of the entire system just right to an individual's ear only happens by trying and luck. It's that elusive high that we audiophiles are always after.


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post #1630 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Same goes for all audio electronics and even cables. Complex tones in the audible range (20Hz-20kHz) can have harmonics which reach into the hundreds of kHz. SACDs can have harmonics into the MHz region.

That's all fine and good, but people have to hear these things for them to be important factors related to sound quality.

Plenty of scientific evidence that they can't.

If you make them really loud one might hear an isolated sine wave whose frequency is above 20 KHz, but not that much.

However, if you test to find the highest frequency whose utter removal is audible, then we're closer to 16 KHz.

Frankly, the best thing to do with frequencies above 20 KHz or so is to avoid reproducing them. That way they can't trigger audible problems. The good news is that equipment for that purpose is widely available and widely used - we call them digital music players, TV sets, etc.
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post #1631 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Soundman5000 View Post


Correct me if I am wrong but one cannot measure all those things that make a Stradivarius sound like a Stradivarius.

Just to confirm Bills utterly correct statements (as if such a thing were needed) people have been measuring the differences between Strads and other violins with great success for decades. The differences are characteristic, they are reliable, they abound and they fit together into a logical story.
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IMO, the same thought applies to a quality speakers no?

Yes they do. The differences are characteristic, they are reliable, they abound and they fit together into a logical story.
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The Choice of wood, internal bracing etc may sound more pleasing to ones ear but not translate into a spec or measurement, no?

Same story with a caveat. The caveat is that with audio gear (and just about everything else that is heard or seen) There are reliable differences and there are perceived differences that are not reliable.
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I just do not see how anyone could purchase a speaker ( or a musical instrument) based on specs alone.

The first counterpoint is that the room that the speaker is in has a dramatic effect on its sound quality. In many cases the room totally overwhelms the speaker. Since you have no choice but to audition speakers if you want to base your purchase decisions on your perceptions of sound quality, the only reliable place to audition speakers is the room and location in the room where you will be ultimately listening to them.

The second counterpoint is that the high levels of acceptance and widespread use and appreciation of system integration tools such as Audyssey, MCACC and YPAO as well as the use of high performance equalizers and analysis tools like Room Eq Wizard provides an additional source of major sound quality modifications to how your speakers sound, even in just your own listening room.

There are loudspeaker attributes such as on-axis response that are highly modifiable and even correctable. There are other loudspeaker attributes such as off-axis response and nonlinear distortion and dynamic range that are difficult or impossible to change or correct once they are built into a loudspeaker. It would appear that the non-correctable attributes, which are generally highly measurable, are the ones that should weigh most heavily in loudspeaker purchase decisions.
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post #1632 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 03:52 PM
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At least NagysAudio is trying to engage in coherent discourse.

beaveav's points, as far as I can see, are little more than bald statements, ad hominem attacks and disparaging remarks about someone's profession. Not cool at all.

You should see some of his other posts. rolleyes.gif

He sells snake-oil audio cables. I'll disparage that until I'm booted from this forum. And then I'll do it some more.
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post #1633 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Same goes for all audio electronics and even cables. Complex tones in the audible range (20Hz-20kHz) can have harmonics which reach into the hundreds of kHz. SACDs can have harmonics into the MHz region. At these frequencies it's important to have proper impedance terminations. There's time and phase problems. Uneven energy storage. RF pickup. Plus many things we don't have the ability to measure yet, or even know about. All of those little details add up and when everything is just right a recording can all of a sudden take on a life of its own and seem strangely real. It's that elusive high that we audiophiles are always after.

It's super simple to make a speaker as Bill and Beaveav proposes. But to get the synergy of the entire system just right to an individual's ear only happens by trying and luck.

Let me know when you prove any of those things are audible. Any of them. I won't be holding my breath.

Meanwhile, you never seem to mention the biggest factor in that magical sound: the room.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #1634 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 04:01 PM
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Let me know when you prove any of those things are audible. Any of them. I won't be holding my breath.

Meanwhile, you never seem to mention the biggest factor in that magical sound: the room.

You ever consider that just maybe you've never actually heard a good sounding system? That happens often when people fiddle around with mid HiFi for most of their lives. It all starts to sound more or less the same.
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post #1635 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 04:11 PM
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Nagy, why don't you do all the Noobs a favor, and put a disclaimer in your signature, stating that you are a dealer of boutique cables? At least that would be honest!rolleyes.gif
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post #1636 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 04:26 PM
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Honesty doesn't come easy to him. He was recently banned from Audioholics after somebody outed him as being NagysAudio and he lied and said he wasn't.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #1637 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 04:35 PM
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Honesty doesn't come easy to him. He was recently banned from Audioholics after somebody outed him as being NagysAudio and he lied and said he wasn't.

Lol. I was also once outed as Elvis himself. I'm not a dealer. And cables are not the only thing I manufacture and subcontract for purely for my hobby. Any noob can Google.
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post #1638 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Honesty doesn't come easy to him. He was recently banned from Audioholics after somebody outed him as being NagysAudio and he lied and said he wasn't.

Lol. I was also once outed as Elvis himself. I'm not a dealer. And cables are not the only thing I manufacture and subcontract for. Any noob can Google.

I don't know how you keep a straight face telling someone that your overpriced cables are any better then lamp cord. Their should be warnings on all boutique cables saying ... your wasting money but go ahead if you must
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post #1639 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 07:31 PM
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You ever consider that just maybe you've never actually heard a good sounding system? That happens often when people fiddle around with mid HiFi for most of their lives. It all starts to sound more or less the same.
You claim that an
(x) audible
( ) measurable
(x) hypothetical

improvement in sound quality can be attained by:
( ) upsampling
( ) non-oversampling
( ) increasing word size
( ) vibration dampening
(x) bi-wiring
(x) high end wire
( ) replacing the external power supply
( ) using a different lossless format
( ) decompressing on the server
( ) removing bits of metal from skull
( ) using ethernet instead of wireless
( ) inverting phase
( ) reversing “polarity” of resistors
( ) ultra fast recovery rectifiers
( ) installing bigger connectors
( ) installing Black Gate caps
( ) installing ByBee filters
( ) installing hospital-grade AC jacks
( ) defragmenting the hard disk
( ) running older firmware
( ) using exotic materials in cabinet
( ) bronze heatsinks
( ) violin lacquer
(x) $500 power cords
( ) coupling to the floor
( ) de-coupling from the floor

Your idea will not work. Specifically, it fails to account for:
(x) the placebo effect
(x) your ears honestly aren't that good
(x) your idea has already been thoroughly disproved
( ) modern DACs upsample anyway
(x) those products are pure snake oil
( ) lossless formats, by definition, are lossless
( ) those measurements are bogus
( ) sound travels much slower than you think
(x) electric signals travel much faster than you think
( ) that's not how binary arithmetic works
( ) that's not how TCP/IP works
( ) the Nyquist theorem
( ) the can't polish a turd theorem
( ) bits are bits

You will try to defend you idea by:
(x) claiming that your ears are “trained”
(x) claiming immunity to psychological/physiological factors that affect everyone else
(x) name-calling
( ) criticizing spelling/grammar

Your subsequent arguments will probably appeal in desperation to such esoterica as:
( ) jitter
( ) EMI
( ) thermal noise
(x) quantum mechanical effects
( ) resonance
(x) existentialism
( ) nihilism
( ) communism
(x) cosmic rays

And you will then change the subject to:
(x) theories are not the same as facts
(x) measurements don't tell everything
(x) not everyone is subject to the placebo effect
(x) blind testing is dumb
(x) you can't prove what I can't hear
(x) science isn't everything

Rather than engage in this tired discussion, I suggest exploring the following factors which are more likely to improve sound quality in your situation:
(x) room acoustics
(x) source material
(x) type of speakers
(x) speaker placement
(x) equalization
(x) crossover points
(x) Q-tips
(x) psychoanalysis
(x) trepanation
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post #1640 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 09:30 PM
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... An oldie but still an incisive goodie. biggrin.gif

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #1641 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 10:08 PM
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Bill, here's what I think is happening: There are many people who cannot hear a difference between cables. There are also just as many people who can. Different people have different hearing. Some have better hearing, some have worse. And that's just fine. I happen to hear the differences in many, but not all cables. I work on this stuff on a nearly daily basis purely for my own enjoyment. I couldn't care less if I didn't make a single penny from Nagys Audio. I'm also a huge fan of many other cable manufacturers like Goldmund, MIT, and Transparent, even though they're supposedly my competition. I have no bias. I'm a huge music and audio fan in general. Because I can hear these differences, however small they may be, it interests me and it's fun to share it sometimes.

So what makes YOU interested in music and audio? I would love to hear some of your creations.
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post #1642 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 10:11 PM
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Lol. I was also once outed as Elvis himself. I'm not a dealer. And cables are not the only thing I manufacture and subcontract for purely for my hobby. Any noob can Google.


I googled and came up with this...impressive..


http://save-earth.co/2009/06/14/audioworldhypes/
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post #1643 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 10:15 PM
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I googled and came up with this...impressive..


http://save-earth.co/2009/06/14/audioworldhypes/

The only thing bad about that is that they didn't list me higher on the list. People have to scroll down half way before they can click my link frown.gif
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post #1644 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 10:17 PM
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I couldn't care less if I didn't make a single penny from Nagys Audio.

^^^^ if this statement was true then why charge 300 bucks for something that costs you 5-10 bucks ?

Well your not alone. Krell , pass labs , mark levinson all gouge people too.
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post #1645 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 10:20 PM
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Always interesting to see when people say built to mil spec...if that were true than that gear wouldn't work probably 50-60% of the time!biggrin.gif

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #1646 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I couldn't care less if I didn't make a single penny from Nagys Audio.

^^^^ if this statement was true then why charge 300 bucks for something that costs you 5-10 bucks ?

Well your not alone. Krell , pass labs , mark levinson all gouge people too.

Gouging would be what the Russian government did to their own people. Steal the plans to Fiat automobiles. Take shortcuts. Build cars which are a thousand times inferior. Sell them at whatever price they felt like because there was no competition as the government owned everything. You're living in a free world buddy. If you don't want to, or can't afford to buy a Levinson, there's always the $100 Onkyo. I fail to see your point.
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post #1647 of 1819 Old 01-30-2014, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I couldn't care less if I didn't make a single penny from Nagys Audio.

^^^^ if this statement was true then why charge 300 bucks for something that costs you 5-10 bucks ?

Well your not alone. Krell , pass labs , mark levinson all gouge people too.

Gouging would be what the Russian government did to their own people. Steal the plans to Fiat automobiles. Take shortcuts. Build cars which are a thousand times inferior. Sell them at whatever price they felt like because there was no competition as the government owned everything. You're living in a free world buddy. If you don't want to, or can't afford to buy a Levinson, there's always the $100 Onkyo. I fail to see your point.

The dictionary definition :

overcharge; swindle.

Knowingly telling someone something us better when in a blind test you couldn't tell yourself.

I don't feel sorry for the saps you profit from. If they spend that much on cables its pocket change for them.

So in one post you don't care about the money and then its a free world.

Now back to pendragon speakers ...:what:
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post #1648 of 1819 Old 01-31-2014, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

I work on this stuff on a nearly daily basis purely for my own enjoyment. I couldn't care less if I didn't make a single penny from Nagys Audio.
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

^^^^ if this statement was true then why charge 300 bucks for something that costs you 5-10 bucks ?
Well your not alone. Krell , pass labs , mark levinson all gouge people too.
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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Gouging would be what the Russian government did to their own people. Steal the plans to Fiat automobiles. Take shortcuts. Build cars which are a thousand times inferior. Sell them at whatever price they felt like because there was no competition as the government owned everything. You're living in a free world buddy. If you don't want to, or can't afford to buy a Levinson, there's always the $100 Onkyo. I fail to see your point..

Objection, non-responsive! biggrin.gif

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #1649 of 1819 Old 01-31-2014, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I couldn't care less if I didn't make a single penny from Nagys Audio.

^^^^ if this statement was true then why charge 300 bucks for something that costs you 5-10 bucks ?

Well your not alone. Krell , pass labs , mark levinson all gouge people too.

Gouging would be what the Russian government did to their own people. Steal the plans to Fiat automobiles. Take shortcuts. Build cars which are a thousand times inferior. Sell them at whatever price they felt like because there was no competition as the government owned everything. You're living in a free world buddy. If you don't want to, or can't afford to buy a Levinson, there's always the $100 Onkyo. I fail to see your point.

The dictionary definition :

overcharge; swindle.

Knowingly telling someone something us better when in a blind test you couldn't tell yourself.

I don't feel sorry for the saps you profit from. If they spend that much on cables its pocket change for them.

So in one post you don't care about the money and then its a free world.

Now back to pendragon speakers ...:what:



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You guys are kinda hard on the cable guy...Free Country so have at him but dang!

For me, It would be such a boring audio world to know the only thing I had in my future was a Rat-Shack speaker cable and an Onkyo receiver as it all sounds the same right? Cable is cable and motor oil is motor oil...Not for me as I am passionate about the small details, I use good cable on my AV rigs and good oil in my cars and simply don't understand people who don't.

I took a look at his cable site ( and the negative stuff on the net) and I like the look of his cables. I love those Tiffany style RCA connectors as I used them in the 90's on my Van Den Hul cables. Those RCA connectors have always been a favorite of mine so I may consider a set of his cable based on that alone. I don't need anyone feeling sorry for me if I purchase a set of his cables as I buy what I like and I am proud of it!

Nagysaudio in my book should charge what he wants for his product as the market ( not this mid-fi form) will tell if he has his product priced right.

How is he gouging anyone with his cable? Rat Shack is right around the corner if one does not like Nagysaudio products. Heck, I would rather give my money to someone who has a true passion for audio and takes his time to build a cable by hand. I expect him to make a great profit ( I do) its called Capitalism. What percentage mark-up does one think Wally World makes on a China printer cable?
If Nagysaudio moves over to a hi-end form and he may be more welcome. I would rather support Nagys Audio than my local Rat-Sack or that mid-fi friendly Blue denim guy.
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post #1650 of 1819 Old 01-31-2014, 08:43 AM
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__________________


You guys are kinda hard on the cable guy...Free Country so have at him but dang!

For me, It would be such a boring audio world to know the only thing I had in my future was a Rat-Shack speaker cable and an Onkyo receiver as it all sounds the same right? Cable is cable and motor oil is motor oil...Not for me as I am passionate about the small details, I use good cable on my AV rigs and good oil in my cars and simply don't understand people who don't.

I took a look at his cable site ( and the negative stuff on the net) and I like the look of his cables. I love those Tiffany style RCA connectors as I used them in the 90's on my Van Den Hul cables. Those RCA connectors have always been a favorite of mine so I may consider a set of his cable based on that alone. I don't need anyone feeling sorry for me if I purchase a set of his cables as I buy what I like and I am proud of it!

Nagysaudio in my book should charge what he wants for his product as the market ( not this mid-fi form) will tell if he has his product priced right.

How is he gouging anyone with his cable? Rat Shack is right around the corner if one does not like Nagysaudio products. Heck, I would rather give my money to someone who has a true passion for audio and takes his time to build a cable by hand. I expect him to make a great profit ( I do) its called Capitalism. What percentage mark-up does one think Wally World makes on a China printer cable?
If Nagysaudio moves over to a hi-end form and he may be more welcome. I would rather support Nagys Audio than my local Rat-Sack or that mid-fi friendly Blue denim guy.

Blue Jeans cable sells good looking, nice cable, terminated for less than $40 a cable, you do not need anything other than that...
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