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post #2071 of 2085 Old 03-01-2015, 03:49 PM
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jreb14,

Now, that is some comprehensive thought. You took six months and traveled to four states to finalize your decision. That is a credible opinion. Bravo!


7channelfreak,

The link to that several speaker shootout is here... http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...s/69421?page=1

It features the following speakers, judged by a competent panel.

Focal Chorus 716v, Vandersteen 2Ce, Martinlogan Motion 12, Tekton Lore, Magnepan MG12, HTD Level Three, Chane (Arx) A5, and Klipsch RF-62 II...

And the Chane (Arx) A5 won. ML Motion 12 in 2nd I believe. With Mag, Klipsch and Tekton being "Tier 2" picks after the top two.

The A5 speaker writeup is the #7 post and this is a portion:



"Wayne's Observations: Impressions: The Arx A5s sounded very good right away. And my relief that we had been able to repair the tweeter only grew as I realized how much I was enjoying them. We came this close to not hearing these speakers. And now, here they are. The evaluation experience became much more enjoyable as a result of the near miss. The magnetic planar tweeter in the A5s is a technology choice I will be keeping my eye on. As with the air-motion-transformer tweeter, the high end is smooth, clean, open and very transparent, which describes the overall sound quality for the A5s. It is a well-integrated sound that gives the impression of simplicity and ease of delivery, yet you know there is a lot going on behind the scenes to make that happen. Elegance. It was after completing the auditioning of the A5s thoroughly when I realized that what stood out about them was an overall sense of refinement. I could picture the design process carried out to the point where the measurements and listening characteristics seemed just about perfect, but one bothersome little detail would elicit a "Nope, that is not good enough," and another level of refinement would follow. Attention to detail above and beyond the call, and applied repeatedly, all ultimately carried out with a sense of elegance and resulting in the A5 towers. It had to be something like that, it certainly did not happen by accident. Soundstage and Imaging: The A5s elicited a soundstage that filled the listening area, well beyond the speaker spacing, to the cinema screen before us, and right up to the listener's left shoulder when the female voice on Three Wishes was almost talking into our ears. Nickel Creek's Ode To A Butterfly was easy for the Arx A5s to disassemble to its component instruments and place each convincingly separate and independent in the sound field. The sense of separation, or air between each sound source was fascinating. The perception of depth in the sound field was just as real, and I was mentally mapping the exact locations of the standup bass, the guitar, the fiddle, and the mandolin. The fiddle on that track sounds like it was recorded in a vocal booth for isolation - you can hear the different ambient quality of the smaller closed-in studio space. The A5s precisely defined the location of the fiddle and the ambient recording space around Sarah Watkins as she played. The sonic illusion was of a space within walls, yet cohesively presented in the openness of the studio with the other instruments, a extra level of sonic detail on the part of the A5s. If a soundstage could have the power to materialize objects, guitars, drums, and singers, the A5s almost felt like they could pull it off. Imaging was rock stable, never wandering or smearing, never indecisive in the least. Perhaps slightly soft, the tightest images were the size of golf balls or baseballs at their largest, a feat with a soundstage so large. Frequency Response: Frequency response was very smooth, very refined. Upon analyzing the mid- to low-frequency measured profile, it became clear that it had been tailored with care. The emphasis arc that increases gradually below 1 KHz, reaching its peak in the mid bass range, feels smoothly done and gives the A5s a bass strength that is solid without ever sounding boomy or loose. That scoop between 200 and 400 Hz never stood out, apparently just small enough to stay below the radar. It might also serve to keep the mid- and low- buildup from becoming overbearing. As a whole, the response of the A5s sounded well-integrated. Nothing stood out as being too much or too little, all frequencies sounded just right. Physical and Visual: The A5s are an attractive tower-full of drivers with the three woofers plus midrange and tweeter. The finish is simple, with a roll-up-your-sleeves look that says, "We put the money where it counts, into the sound." It works for me. Overall Listening Experience: I had to be pried away from the Arx A5s, still feeling relieved about how close we came to not even hearing them. The impression of a materializing power in the imaging and soundstage was hard to get out of my head. A sheer joy. What These Speakers Are Best For: The Arx A5s are capable of handling any kind of music with ease. They know no limitations that I could imagine.

Leonard's Observations: I have to admit ignorance of these going in. Other than giving their bookshelf version a look briefly, I had not been aware of them. That changed immediately. This speaker, like the ML, caught my attention from the middle row of seats. I was reclined icing my neck and nearly dozing off, and the sound of Cindy Wilson's voice brought me out of my seat to see what was drawing me to listen. Such an obvious improvement in smoothness and detail was a bit of a surprise. It recalled my listening to some of my favorite speakers from Thiel, which are much more expensive. Top to bottom, all of my notes were complimentary. The only critique that I can make is that they don?t go as deep as a sub, but the detail in the bass and mid bass made them my favorite. Truly a great value and this speaker could easily come home with me. All of the comments about the ML hold true here, and then some. There was a connection to the music that I felt more strongly than with the other products. They say sound and smell are two of the cues in memory that are strongest. Well, I think the subtle detail in instruments that I favor, acoustic strings, and in vocals touched some memory strings that left me sensing a live performance in front of me. I wished I had a live recording of Dr. John or Prof. Longhair as I knew the sounds here would trigger my sense that the keys were being touched in front of me. Sonnie described his experience with some really high end systems at the trade shows in rather similar terms to what I recall listening to some very fine systems in the past. There is a sense that one gets that is something like the suspension of disbelief that one must allow to enjoy a movie. With audio it is harder, as there is only one sense being stimulated and relatively few systems are set up and capable of producing such detail. What surprises me about these is that they do so at such a low price and are so easy to set up to produce such an experience. This speaker begs to be listened to, not just heard, but to really listen. We have reviewed about two dozen speakers ranging up to $3500 per pair using the same model for evaluation that we did in the first session where the Arx 5 was so well received. While there are certainly things that many of the more expensive speakers do better, by a very small margin, I continue to be intrigued and pleased, and continue to discover something new in music that I have been listening to for many years. The emotional connection to the music is certainly one of the things that the A5 delivers on. As I said in the review, very few speakers call me to listen more, or call me when listening from a distance. It is hard to describe how pleased I am with this product.

Quenten's Observations: Setting up these speakers for optimal placement was reasonably quick. Placement options were very forgiving and we were able to pick a sweet spot with little effort. Finally getting my spot in "the chair," I hit play and was immediately struck by the musicality of these speakers. The first track starts out kind of benign with a simple rhythm, but nonetheless I was able to feel a richness and fullness to the notes that had been lacking thus far. Within seconds I actually said "Wow", turned around and stated "These are the best I have heard." Wayne promptly called me "too easy"... so I went back to listening. These speakers were just plain show stoppers. The soundstage on a couple of songs fully encompassed the room from wall to wall, again prompting a comment from me. I had struggled with the less than clear vocals on La Habanero until now. On that song there is a strong accent with lots of loud background music. I was able to discern the words more clearly with these speakers. I pointed this out to Sonnie so he could pay attention to it during his session. These speakers were truly amazing. I finished my set again with the Supertramp album. No harshness and the bass hit notes that I was use to hearing with my sub. I know the frequency sweeps don't show this, so I can only attribute this to the cleanliness of the sound. I could indeed listen without a sub. I then put in the Eagles Hell Freezes Over just for fun. Again, full soundstage with pinpoint imaging, and a crystal clear guitar solo. Wow, I did not want to stop listening! I again reiterated my pleasure with these speakers, tempering it with needing to hear their off axis presentation. I heard Sonnie comment in the back that "they sounded pretty good back here." Leonard was next up, which gave me just that opportunity. Their off axis response was very good indeed. Sitting in the back and off to the right, the music was still full and smooth. Not quite the soundstage, but still easy to listen to without any harshness. Very nice for when you will have a room full of people. Leonard followed next and while sitting next to Sonnie, I stated that this was making me look forward to the $2,000-$2,500 shootout. Sonnie commented that they were going to have to "bring it" to outdo these speakers. And I agree, Jon has a winner here.

Sonnie's Observations: It is true! They almost did not make it into the round-up. Jon Lane was somewhat hesitant about sending them to me, despite The Audio Insider being a sponsor at HTS and having their own forum here. Can you imagine us not being able to get a sponsor of ours to send us a pair of speakers, especially considering they only cost $749 for the pair? Yes, I could purchase them on a trial period, but that was not the point. I am not saying Jon was not justified in his thinking, he had genuine concerns and I respect him for being inquisitive about this event. Nonetheless, there is no doubt it would have been a huge disappointment for all of us. His reservations alone (even though I understood them) placed a doubt in my mind that I could not shake loose... a doubt that had me thinking they would not compete. What an inane thought that ended up being. Much like the ML's, the A5's were super easy to setup... very forgiving of their placement. As I began to listen, I was immediately asking myself if we even changed speakers. I literally thought for a second that we had gotten confused and placed the ML's right back in the room again... seriously, I opened my eyes and took a good hard look at the A5's just to make sure we had indeed been handling the A5's and not the 12's during setup. How strange is it that two speakers can sound so much alike. Wow... the soundstaging, imaging, clarity, openness, and all those magical terms started exploding through my mind. These speakers truly sounded great, unbelievably great for their retail pricing point of only $749. I was stunned by how finely detailed and airy they sounded to not be an electrostatic speaker. There is no need to repeat what I previously stated about the songs in the ML Motion 12 section, because it would basically be the same wording, and I am not sure I can describe them any differently. If you will read my thoughts about each song in my MartinLogan Motion 12 observations, you will have my exact thoughts for the A5. I will state that there was a slightly notable difference with the guitar on Spyro Gyra's Breakfast At Igors that I was able to pinpoint causing me to believe the A5's might have a slight edge over the Motion 12's. The guitar seemed to be a little more detailed and defined; however, I would have to hear it again on the Motion 12's to verify what I thought I might be hearing, which I would do in the final session. I kept listening for more apparent differences without going back to the Motion 12's... and I finally came to a tentative conclusion where I felt the A5's might be the most disappearing speakers I had heard thus far. It is ironic that I had written that down in my notes and a few minutes later I heard Leonard telling Wayne that he thought these speakers just disappeared with almost everything (were you peeking at my notes Leonard?). Again, I wanted to make sure and would need to confirm my thoughts in the final listening session. The bass on the A5's and the 12?s were very very close? and it made me curious if it was merely coincidental that they both have rear-firing ports. While the bass on the 12's may have been slightly fuller, the A5's seemed to have slightly better control. At this point, the A5's seemed to have the edge, but I could not be sure until I went back and listened to the Motion 12's again, which would not be until later. We were no doubt going to have to get really nit picky to make a final choice between these two speakers. I do not think there was any doubt the A5's were in the final running... the only question left was if the remaining two speakers in the round-up would join the A5's and the Motion 12's. I am still amazed at the fact that these speakers are selling for $749 a pair... they could easily be $749 each! It is almost too good to be true."

Last edited by FliGuyRyan; Yesterday at 06:49 AM. Reason: Ease of reading...
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post #2072 of 2085 Old 03-01-2015, 04:27 PM
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I've never thought about the BBB but I think that the people here that have been wronged should absolutely take their grievance to them. I seriously doubt with the complaints on this thread, they'd (Tekton) have the rating they do now.

But I will say, when the silly first posts with the ridiculous glowing reviews stop, people will start to take this thread a little more serious. Until then...it's just entertainment like the Bachelor or the Real Housewives.
The BBB is a joke. As long as a member pays their fees they aren't going to get a bad grade. Find a company that's still a member who has anything less than an A.

A lot of ID speaker companies are active on this thread and address questions and concerns - Philarmonic, SVS, PSA, Golden Ear, Ascend, Wavecrest, Salk (you get the idea). For Eric to pop in and talk about personal problems and not address the issues at hand - That says a hell of a lot more than BBB rating aka a joke.

Don't get me wrong, no one wants to see a company fail big or small. Owners reviews are mixed on this thread, hope he gets his act together and succeeds. If he doesn't all he needs to do is look in the mirror and not at a picture of his ex.

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post #2073 of 2085 Old 03-01-2015, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
The BBB is a joke. As long as a member pays their fees they aren't going to get a bad grade. Find a company that's still a member who has anything less than an A.

A lot of ID speaker companies are active on this thread and address questions and concerns - Philarmonic, SVS, PSA, Golden Ear, Ascend, Wavecrest, Salk (you get the idea). For Eric to pop in and talk about personal problems and not address the issues at hand - That says a hell of a lot more than BBB rating aka a joke.

Don't get me wrong, no one wants to see a company fail big or small. Owners reviews are mixed on this thread, hope he gets his act together and succeeds. If he doesn't all he needs to do is look in the mirror and not at a picture of his ex.
Ohhhh. The BBB is like that Who's who book where you buy in. I see.
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post #2074 of 2085 Old 03-01-2015, 05:23 PM
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The BBB is but one avenue a consumer can take, there are several others.


Consider filing a complaint with Utah's Consumer Complaint Division. This page should provide sufficient sufficient information to direct you: http://consumerprotection.utah.gov/complaints/
IMO, this is a very underrated resource.

Ic3.gov gets involved in Internet related complaints.

Small claims is also possible. In some cases you don't have to be physically there to plead your case. A call to the county clerk will indicate if there are exceptions.

The FTC sets ground rules for businesses. Previous actions by Tekton suggest they have been in violation in matters such as proper notification for out of stock items. Try them. Try them all. If you're not proactive, you participate in your own victimization.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #2075 of 2085 Old Yesterday, 05:33 AM
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What I’d like to see going forward are new postings from people that say they’ve been taken care of…or not. And postings from people that own Tekton product with comments on their rooms, their equipment and how their Tekton products are performing for them.


Let’s give Tekton a pass for the next 6 months, stop rehashing past problems and see if the improvements happen as promised/committed.
I would also like to see more postings, discussions from owners, same as you RN213, going forward.

I was made whole with my Purchase sometime back and I would like to see nothing but positive reviews but you new owners, or old owners that have or have not been made whole give us some reports please... let us know what your end result was and please post some pictures of your completed Pendragon purchase.

I do wonder exactly what grills now ships with the Pendragons? I know in the past some people received Velcro attachable foam grills. I received wood frame normal grills, but exactly what grill is shipping now with the new Pens?

I do have a request...You guys opening the Pens up replacing tweeters and such (or younger owners with more energy than me) please post some detailed inside views including but not limited to the bracing or lack of bracing mentioned some time back. I would like to know what internal wire is used. I would like to know how hard the crossover is to access, change or modify with DIY cap upgrades or after inspection, will I find that a crossover cap upgrade is something that must be done when the order is placed?
I like the idea of purchasing speakers / audio now and upgrade later when on a limited budget such as myself.

Lots of Pendragon pics on this site and the net but after all this time NO inside pictures? Kinda like buying a new car and not looking at the engine? I see pics of the tweeters and crossovers but only after people take them out of the speaker. I know I can take one of my woofers out and snap some pics myself but prefer not to do that unless required or only after I can verify DIY mods can be performed and the crossover is accessible. Thoughts anyone?

Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words. Lets see some pics of your stuff guys. I don't care...brag on you rig! I would like to know (see) what Pendragon owners are using to power your Pens and thoughts of what works best.

Happy Listening Everyone!

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Lore Reference is a different model then many Lores reviewed. I think the Goldenear Triton 7 are not near as good as other Golden Ear models and the AON3 bookshelf is better speaker and more complete. I feel they have a gap somewhere in the cross over point it sounds really hollow in the midrange. Listen to the Aon 3 and Tiriton 1 & 3. The Lore can hang with either Triton 1 or 2 are not lacking against the Titan 1. I would be put these Lore Reference up against any speaker under 5k that I have heard and this includes B&W Diamonds and Sonus Fabur. I feel like I have Wilson level speakers in my living room. They are really that good. I looked for 6 months traveling 4 states to hear different speakers before picking these. I recommend the custom finish it is worth every extra charge.
Hi!

Did you hear the lore-s vs the lore reference before purchase?

I've heard that the lore-s is a step up against the lore reference in sound quality.

//Mike
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post #2077 of 2085 Old Yesterday, 08:18 AM
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HTS Review Thoughts

FliGuyRyan

I think that one of the key elements of the HTS review is how much difference the room and placement make to the overall sound, soundstage and low end. My own experience is that the room is almost equal to the speakers themselves and more important than the electronics or wires.


No doubt from this review, any one of these speakers has the potential to sound good (or poor) depending on the room and placement circumstances…and given a different room, any one of these speakers may have come out on top.


For me, the takeaway is that you absolutely have to audition speakers at home, move them around until they sound best (to your liking) and then decide if you love the sound and can live with the placement. And if not, not big deal, go back to square one a try again.


In my case, I had the lores in a 6000+ cubic foot room and they sounded really good and definitely had the bass impact that the HTS review referenced. Recently I moved and they are now in a 12,000+ cubic foot open concept room with tiled floors, 10’ ceilings and lots of glass. They are 3’ off the rear walls, 10’ apart and 13’ from the listening position with no walls on one side and 5’ feet away on the other side. In other words, they have had to fit in the room rather than have the room fit around them!


Much to my shock given the size of the room, the presentation is even more “ sounds like the musicians are in your room” than before…coherent, dynamic, huge soundstage and good bass with chest impact. Notice I said good bass…in this much larger room, the bass impact has diminished a little and the real bass heads would probably augment the bottom end with a sub coming in around 40-50hz.


So, whether you decide to try the Lores or the Pendragons or the Goldenears or the Salks…it is critical that you get the chance to do it in your room with your equipment.


Have fun, we are fortunate to be living in an age of great sounding “relatively affordable” audio.
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The BBB is but one avenue a consumer can take, there are several others.


Consider filing a complaint with Utah's Consumer Complaint Division. This page should provide sufficient sufficient information to direct you: http://consumerprotection.utah.gov/complaints/
IMO, this is a very underrated resource.

Ic3.gov gets involved in Internet related complaints.

Small claims is also possible. In some cases you don't have to be physically there to plead your case. A call to the county clerk will indicate if there are exceptions.

The FTC sets ground rules for businesses. Previous actions by Tekton suggest they have been in violation in matters such as proper notification for out of stock items. Try them. Try them all. If you're not proactive, you participate in your own victimization.
Anyone wanting grilles can simply call me directly at 801-836-0764 and I will ship you grilles.

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Just an update with my ever progressive audio journey. I have recently bought a pair of new Martin Logan Electromotion ELS's. They are my first electrostats and found a deal I could not pass up. The time and technology was right for me. I will not own main speakers again with powered subs and that has been one of ML's draw backs for me.


They have replaced my Pens as main speakers and now they are doing surround duty and VERY well I must say. They now bring in low bass on my surrounds with efficiency that I have never achieved before. And they replaced smaller floor standers.


I am surprised how well they blend with the ELS's. Must be the tweeter array the Pens have that keeps with the "airiness" through out. I use the ELS's for stereo music playback and the three Pens with movies, it all comes together. I have 4 sealed Ultimax 12's doing sub duty but only have enough amperage to run two. Very happy with my setup now and can't see anything to improve for now.


This is a very strange thread that I have been following. And marks the very reason I don't do much posting on these forums. I learn what I can "with a grain of salt" and get the rest of my knowledge from personal experience. Cheers

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Just an update with my ever progressive audio journey. I have recently bought a pair of new Martin Logan Electromotion ELS's. They are my first electrostats and found a deal I could not pass up. The time and technology was right for me. I will not own main speakers again with powered subs and that has been one of ML's draw backs for me.


They have replaced my Pens as main speakers and now they are doing surround duty and VERY well I must say. They now bring in low bass on my surrounds with efficiency that I have never achieved before. And they replaced smaller floor standers.


I am surprised how well they blend with the ELS's. Must be the tweeter array the Pens have that keeps with the "airiness" through out. I use the ELS's for stereo music playback and the three Pens with movies, it all comes together. I have 4 sealed Ultimax 12's doing sub duty but only have enough amperage to run two. Very happy with my setup now and can't see anything to improve for now.


This is a very strange thread that I have been following. And marks the very reason I don't do much posting on these forums. I learn what I can "with a grain of salt" and get the rest of my knowledge from personal experience. Cheers
Looks like your Martin Logan ELS speakers have a retail price about the same as the Pendragon.
So do you consider the ML an upgrade over the pens for 2-ch listening? If so, thoughts of what the ML does better?

Although it has been years, I always loved the sound of planer / electrostatic speakers but were so power hungry.

Early on (late 80's) I based my electronics around class A transistor amps and now low power single ended tube amps so I never had enough power to own a set of Martin Logan's or similar. If I remember the sound of the female voice can be very special with that speaker design.

Using flea power amps is the reason I ended up with the efficient Pendragons.
What are you using to push the Logan's and how power hungry are your new speakers?

You say you don't have enough amperage to run but (2) subs? Why can you not run your (4) subs with your electronics, or why would you need to run (4 subs)?

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These new ElectroMotions have an efficiency of 91 and are really easy to power. They have been out of stock at Crutchfield for at least two months.

The difference in sound over the Pens are not huge though noticeable. But would have been a big improvement over past speakers I have owned. Polk RT's and Anthony Gallos are my last two upgrades.

The sound is more spacious and detailed. It's just a more refined sound than any box speaker I have heard. But the Pens with the two ten inch drivers have a deeper pro audio sound.

My front stage is powered by a three channel Monster amp with 250 watts a channel. At 100 lbs, it can push almost any speaker with ease. Between that my Onkyo and two 1000w BASH amplifiers pushing two sets of sealed 12's, I need another dedicated circuit. I live in rental now so I can't do much about it like I was able to do in the past with homes I have owned with dedicated theater rooms.
When I turn both subs on I loss significant power to the other one. I have tried several outlets around the room. I was trying to smooth the response out using two subs instead of just one. But one sub with those dual Ultimax's is plenty and I like heavy bass for movies.
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post #2082 of 2085 Unread Today, 01:54 PM
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Wow pendragons as suuround speakers that is awesome.
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When you stated that "I have 4 sealed Ultimax 12's doing sub duty but only have enough amperage to run two" I see now you don't have enough "amperage" as in not enough AC power. I have never had enough "amperage" as in I have small power amplifiers...LOL.

I have always been a fan of dedicated AC circuits for AV but understand it is not always practical.

The home I am in now was a doctors billing office prior so I gained (3) 20A dedicated circuits in my AV room from the old computer server location but my room is small. Pendragons via 7 WPC tiny amp in a small room with 60 amps of AC... Not exactly ideal but I will take having extra power.

I would run an AC extension cord from a bedroom for the subs if nothing else but (WAF) or ground loops may not allow such a thing...

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I understand your confusion Soundman. That's funny, I was going to joke about running a power cord from another room in the house - lol
I just put the other sub away as a backup for now. I can't even find a realistic way to run my rear surround channels without having speaker wire running every where. In my last theater I had a crawl space under the house to run ALL my wires.


I will keep the Pens for now, very happy with the current setup. I am surely a NEW fan of Martin Logan and their electrostats. AMERICAN made in Kansas and they have great videos of their production facility. Great customer service and very honest about their technology, setup and progression of ML products. I totally support indy audio companies from the US. I recently found out that all SVS products, in which I am a long time customer of, has recently outsourced ALL manufacturing to Asia. I wonder if that has been mentioned yet


So I am a proud owner of both Tekton and ML speakers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
The BBB is a joke. As long as a member pays their fees they aren't going to get a bad grade. Find a company that's still a member who has anything less than an A.

A lot of ID speaker companies are active on this thread and address questions and concerns - Philarmonic, SVS, PSA, Golden Ear, Ascend, Wavecrest, Salk (you get the idea). For Eric to pop in and talk about personal problems and not address the issues at hand - That says a hell of a lot more than BBB rating aka a joke.

Don't get me wrong, no one wants to see a company fail big or small. Owners reviews are mixed on this thread, hope he gets his act together and succeeds. If he doesn't all he needs to do is look in the mirror and not at a picture of his ex.
You are 100% correct...

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