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post #1 of 27 Old 12-24-2012, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey I'm looking to upgrade my home surround sound theater from my all in one 5.1 channel sony surround that comes with the amplifier built into the dvd player. which cost me $300.00. I'm looking at Boxing Day sales and these are my options what should I do and why if possible:(I'm looking for bang for my buck)

Amplifier:
Pioneer SC 1227 K 7.1---- $699.00
Pioneer VSX 1127 K 7.1- $499.00
Harmon Kardon AVR 3650- $599.00 (3D READY)
Harmon Kardon AVR 2650- $499.00 (3D Ready)

Speakers
Klipsh F-10 (5 Speakers and Sub)- $699.00
KEF T100 (5 SPEAKERS AND SUB)- $899.99
JBL 5.0 Package (Model??? no sub)- 499.00 ADD SUB 150 WATT SUB FOR 199.00


Klipsh Reference Dual Centre Channel Speaker- $249.99
Polk High Performance Dual Centre Channel Speakers (RTi-10)- $600.00
Klipsh Reference Dual 8" Channel Towers- $800.00
Energy Veritas Bookshelf Speakers- $249.99
Polk Bookshelf Speakers (RTi4)- $149.99

Subwoofers
Polk Subwoofer (PSW10)- 99.99
Energy Power12 Subwoofer- $229.00


Couple of rookie questions-- Is it OK to mix speaker brands like Polk up front and Energy in the back? Also, are bookshelf speakers the same as the rear speakers?

Any help is great thanks!
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post #2 of 27 Old 12-24-2012, 07:26 PM
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I was just looking at boxing day sales as well and was tossing between the HK AVR 3650 and the Pioneer SC-1227-K. I had to discount the HK due to the fact that it has no analog inputs or pre-outs. I am interested in others input on your options as well.

Edit: Some misleading information on the Pioneer Site. Just looked at the user manual and no multi-channel inputs on the SC-1227-K either. frown.gif
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post #3 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 04:43 AM
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what is multi-channel?

i have been searching the forums and web and I cannot find an explanation of what it is.

(I too am looking at this receiver at futureshop vs its THX certified upgraded model)
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post #4 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
what is multi-channel?
Here is a good, older article on multi-channel analogue pre-inputs.

They're mostly useful as a workaround for getting lossless audio (Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA) to an older 5.1-ch (or 7.1-ch) AVR that does not have HDMI inputs.
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post #5 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 08:42 AM
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Within that budget range for an AVR I'd suggest you include the Denon 3312 into that mix - which has Audyssey XT. That is a refurbished model but you get more for your dollar buying refurbished IMO. Some people can't stand the idea of owning something used but we ain't talking underwear here. Buy an extended warranty if you are shy of buying refurbished with only a one year warranty - they are cheap. Denon Onkyo and Marantz have Audyssey room correction built in. IMO its better than the HK room correction. I currently have XT32 version and love it. I have no experience with the Pioneer room correction but most users that have had both prefer the Audyssey software.

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post #6 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 08:52 AM
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For a receiver, don't fall into the trap of either thinking more power is always better or that all sound the same; they definitely do not.

In terms of sound quality, receivers are VERY different in their amplifier design cost and the resulting sound quality. There are nay-sayers; I have 40 years of listening and engineering design experience that says differently.

Home Theater magazine tests receivers and rates their sound quality, and one would be very smart to look very hard at those ratings. Experienced experts listen carefully under controlled conditions to arrive at those ratings, and they can tell you a lot.

The cambridge 551R, for example gets a perfect 5 rating and deserves it. Pioneer and Yamaha do not do well, and their sound quality is marginal IMO.

I would look at Cambridge, or Marantz, or Harmon-Kardon if you want decent sound quality (in that order).

For speakers I would rate KEF as one of the best; they have been for 50 years. The others you mentioned are not in the same class.

The T100 ultra-thin system is not their best value, however. It sacrifices sound quality to aesthetics (an issue of priorities...).

A pair of C7 speakers, a pair of C3 speakers, and a C6LCR would be a far superior system IMO for almost the same price.
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post #7 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 09:08 AM
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What is your room size? Dimensions? Give us an example or pic of how your room is layed out. I think many times we focus on the speaker system and not really pay attention to what best fits the room that it will be in.
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post #8 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 09:09 AM
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If you are spending the same dollars amount on a reciever and your speakers, I think your budget is out of whack. you are listing entry level speaker packages and some "above entry level" AV-r. I would do the opposite on a limited budget...get a entry level, but decent AV-r (easily 200-250 dollars) and then spend the rest of your budget on speakers (and mostly on the front L/R and sub).
No matter how much you spend on a receiver...you won't get good sound from it if you have crappy speakers!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: JBL130, JBL120C and Klipsch synergy sub
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post #9 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 09:15 AM
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I very much agree with this. I would put the budget balance at 60% speakers and 40% receiver, personally.

It sounds like your budget will allow some fairly decent speakers; perhaps around the $1000-1500 range, and a reasonably good receiver for a bit less. That sounds good to me. I wouldn't go to a "budget" receiver if you can afford something better-sounding. Perhaps you could consider the Marantz SR5007 or the NAD T748; they might be good choices.

[quote name="Elihawk"
No matter how much you spend on a receiver...you won't get good sound from it if you have crappy speakers![/quote]
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post #10 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 09:15 AM
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Dont even consider the PSW10. You might as well go down the road and throw $100 out the window. Your sub is very, very important in a HT system and I am certain you will not be happy with it.
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post #11 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 09:18 AM
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Absolutely; the PSW-10 is a wimpy little puppy...NOT a woofer.

It must have at least a 12-inch driver and 250 watts of RMS power (preferably more power).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisu7582 View Post

Dont even consider the PSW10. You might as well go down the road and throw $100 out the window. Your sub is very, very important in a HT system and I am certain you will not be happy with it.
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post #12 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

For a receiver, don't fall into the trap of either thinking more power is always better or that all sound the same; they definitely do not.
In terms of sound quality, receivers are VERY different in their amplifier design cost and the resulting sound quality. There are nay-sayers; I have 40 years of listening and engineering design experience that says differently.
Home Theater magazine tests receivers and rates their sound quality, and one would be very smart to look very hard at those ratings. Experienced experts listen carefully under controlled conditions to arrive at those ratings, and they can tell you a lot.
The cambridge 551R, for example gets a perfect 5 rating and deserves it. Pioneer and Yamaha do not do well, and their sound quality is marginal IMO.
I would look at Cambridge, or Marantz, or Harmon-Kardon if you want decent sound quality (in that order).
For speakers I would rate KEF as one of the best; they have been for 50 years. The others you mentioned are not in the same class.
The T100 ultra-thin system is not their best value, however. It sacrifices sound quality to aesthetics (an issue of priorities...).
A pair of C7 speakers, a pair of C3 speakers, and a C6LCR would be a far superior system IMO for almost the same price.

Pioneer doesn't do so well? You sure about that?

OP, see post #72 in this link, and then learn to ignore anything Commsysman says:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446856/count-1-more-for-all-receivers-sound-the-same/60

Pioneer Elite with 5 star rating.

But you know what? Who cares about the star rating?! Commsysman tells you it is determined by an "experienced expert." That's a fancy way of saying it's just one biased person's opinion. It has little or no value to you.

Commsysman, what consumer a/v products have you designed? I'm dying to know.
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post #13 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

If you are spending the same dollars amount on a reciever and your speakers, I think your budget is out of whack. you are listing entry level speaker packages and some "above entry level" AV-r. I would do the opposite on a limited budget...get a entry level, but decent AV-r (easily 200-250 dollars) and then spend the rest of your budget on speakers (and mostly on the front L/R and sub).
No matter how much you spend on a receiver...you won't get good sound from it if you have crappy speakers!

Agreed.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #14 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 11:09 AM
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I see your flamethrower still works.

Yes, all of my opinions are trash and all of your opinions are worshipped by the Gods atop Mount Olympus.

You've said it a dozen times, so it must be true.



Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post


learn to ignore anything Commsysman says
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post #15 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 11:14 AM
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You forgot to tell us which consumer A/V products you have designed. wink.gif

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #16 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I see your flamethrower still works.
Yes, all of my opinions are trash and all of your opinions are worshipped by the Gods atop Mount Olympus.
You've said it a dozen times, so it must be true.


Wait a minute I though Stereophile and Hometheater was the word of God according to you?!?!?!?

Usually your the first one to say everyone elses opinion is garbage. Like large centers, Japanese receivers, audyssey or any other room correction, internet direct subwoofers and speakers, and the list goes on. You've called my speakers and many other memebers speakers pure cheap trash because there are not PSB or Monitor or Gallo.

Its almost impossible for you to recommend someone a speaker or receiver without trashing something else. We get it you don't like center channels with larger than 4" woofers, we get it that you don't like room correction but do you have to keep trashing it in every post you make?

You continue in your ways and everyone else will continue calling you out. You want it to stop maybe be alittle more respectful of everyone elses opinions too. Door swings both way remember. You dish it out better be able to take it too.
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post #17 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 11:21 AM
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I never said I designed ANY consumer products. My engineering work was in instrumentation, at Autonetics and Douglas Aircraft.

Same amplifiers; different applications.

You seem to repeatedly get confused about what actually WAS said; reading what is said more carefully would avoid such confusion.

I challenge you to find ANY statement where I said someone's opinion was "garbage". You allege that over and over and over and it is simply not true, so please stop it.



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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

You forgot to tell us which consumer A/V products you have designed. wink.gif
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post #18 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 11:27 AM
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Just because I say that one thing is better than another, IMO, that does NOT mean I am calling something "cheap trash". You are putting words in my mouth that I never said. You do that repeatedly.

If you have to invent lies and distort what I said, rather than quoting me accurately, maybe you should take some lessons on how to be logical and accurate and factual.

I also DO NOT say other people's opinions are garbage. I give my own. I leave the name-calling to you.

I also do not "call people out', because that is not the purpose of this forum. Your repeated and unjustified attacks on me are a misuse of this forum, and you don't seem to understand that.

It is supposed to be a place where one can express an honest opinion, without being constantly attacked by those who disagree.

It would be much nicer around here if people could keep that in mind and express their own opinion without making any reference to anyone else's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Wait a minute I though Stereophile and Hometheater was the word of God according to you?!?!?!?
Usually your the first one to say everyone elses opinion is garbage. Like large centers, Japanese receivers, audyssey or any other room correction, internet direct subwoofers and speakers, and the list goes on. You've called my speakers and many other memebers speakers pure cheap trash because there are not PSB or Monitor or Gallo.
Its almost impossible for you to recommend someone a speaker or receiver without trashing something else. We get it you don't like center channels with larger than 4" woofers, we get it that you don't like room correction but do you have to keep trashing it in every post you make?
You continue in your ways and everyone else will continue calling you out. You want it to stop maybe be alittle more respectful of everyone elses opinions too. Door swings both way remember. You dish it out better be able to take it too.
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post #19 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 03:32 PM
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Can we not focus on the original question that the OP had asked. Lets not get into a free-throw shooting contest and hijack this guys need.

Again, would you please tell us your room dimensions?
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post #20 of 27 Old 12-26-2012, 11:09 PM
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I own all Klipsch Reference Cinmea 10s, and they are the most incredible speakers I have ever heard.

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post #21 of 27 Old 12-30-2012, 01:33 PM
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Well.. I for one find this post very informative.. Being in the market for a new receiver and all... I have a hard time believing that all receivers sound the same myself.. But this is purely based on nothing.. If that's the case.. I should just disregard brand all together and buy the cheapest with the most features that I require?

That sure would make my choice a lot simpler... But again.. I have a hard time believing this.. Why when I don't have any tangible evidence, or experiences, or facts?
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post #22 of 27 Old 12-30-2012, 01:44 PM
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Buy based on features, 4 ohm capable, number of channels, and any other options like room correction levels ie: basic, Multi EQ, Multi EQ XT or XT 32. Its never ending debate and some will never agreed either way.

Its been done many times, where majority of a listening panel who didn't know what they were listening to could not tell the diffence between a budget receiver and expensive amplifers. Only when some one sees what they are listening to like cheap Pioneer vs McIntosh amp do they claim to hear differences. Even though they claimed they couldn't tell a difference now that they can see with their eyes now the Mcintosh sounds better by a million miles.

Its same with speakers. Klipsch is known to have a reputation of being bright and harsh sounding. In the Audioholics blind tests, the Klipsch were described as natural and neutral. Take the blind folds off and they see they are listening to Klipsch, now all of a sudden they are bright and too forward. Eyes play a big part in what you want to hear or not hear.
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post #23 of 27 Old 12-30-2012, 02:40 PM
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Looking for opinions (I'm an uneducated receiver - shopper) on the difference between:

Denon AVR2113 and
Pioneer SC-1227-K

Priced about $50 apart.
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post #24 of 27 Old 12-30-2012, 03:02 PM
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The Denon has better room correction software, but other than that it comes down to feature set. I like Audyssey over Pioneer's and Yamaha's room correction software. The Audyssey XT or XT32 does a great job EQing the subwoofer, when last I read Pioneer and Yamahas doesn't apply any or not much subwoofer eq.
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post #25 of 27 Old 12-30-2012, 03:20 PM
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In addition - I posted to the soundbar forum, but it was suggested I post here as well because I am looking for a passive soundbar

... I am totally new to this. I think I need a "passive" soundbar because I want to connect it to a receiver. When I search on "passive soundbars" I get all soundbars and have trouble sorting out which is which. My local audio shop has recommended

Paradigm Cinema Trio ($539) coupled with a Cinema Sub ($349). I would like to shop around a bit and compare/assess my options - but I can't figure out what to compare to.... most of the soundbars on sale right now have amplifiers built in so I can't leverage the receiver - help!
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post #26 of 27 Old 12-30-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eron View Post

Well.. I for one find this post very informative.. Being in the market for a new receiver and all... I have a hard time believing that all receivers sound the same myself.. But this is purely based on nothing.. If that's the case.. I should just disregard brand all together and buy the cheapest with the most features that I require?
That would depend on if you want it to still work 6 months from now. but yes: once we are only talking about good brands, you pick an AVR based on its feature set.
Quote:
That sure would make my choice a lot simpler... But again.. I have a hard time believing this.. Why when I don't have any tangible evidence, or experiences, or facts?
It must conflict with some pre-existing belief.
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post #27 of 27 Old 12-30-2012, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

That would depend on if you want it to still work 6 months from now. but yes: once we are only talking about good brands, you pick an AVR based on its feature set.

It depends really. I still have a old Sony HTIB receiver that was maybe $150 new from Walmart and its going strong in a bed room setup. A friend is on his second NAD T765 receiver, first one failed while still under warranty and the remote has already stopped working on his second unit. My budget Onkyo 605 (2007) and older Awia stereo in garage is still going strong. While I agree that I wouldn't go too cheap and of course stay with the usually brands that doesn't mean your totally safe by buying a expensive boutique or top of the line receiver either. They can all fail no matter how expensive or cheap they are. But for piece of mind I'd go with a reputable brand. I plan on having my current Onkyo 818 for several more years maybe more.
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