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post #91 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

I have recently tried 10 pairs of speaker cables ranging from "cheap" to exotic. Yes blind tests were run. They all sound different period. More than just tone controls as well. The size of the sound stage can be influenced by cables, among other things. Like the poster said....your loss.

Science can explain quite a bit of this...
.
Science can, and has, explained all of it. What you have not shown are the results of your tests, whether or not they were truly double-blind, measured results that corroborate the listening tests, and, most important to the consumer, evidence that there is any direct connection between the cost of the cables and the performance, both perceived and measured. Without all of this your conclusions are at best subjective, at worst just one more example of Placebo Effect at work. If this was the Audio Visual Fantasy forum that would be OK. It isn't.

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post #92 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post


I have recently tried 10 pairs of speaker cables ranging from "cheap" to exotic. Yes blind tests were run. They all sound different period. More than just tone controls as well. The size of the sound stage can be influenced by cables, among other things. Like the poster said....your loss.

Science can explain quite a bit of this, unfortunately the more that is explained is directly proportional to the aggression and doubt and denial on this site that you get back.

The quality of the copper, using silver or gold conductors, cable awg or geometry, shield material and the way the shield is implemented, and dielectrics can all influence sound.

Remember, in the overall scheme of things, the vocal here are the minority when looking at all the various internet/hobbyist sites. Many in the avs high end forum (above $20....oops subliminal slip wink.gif wrong forum, I mean above $20,000 forum have and discuss high end cables, but they will have nothing to do with the vocal anti-cable police here at avs. This is a great site, as long as you don't want to learn about cables. Many here also think audio processors, amps and blu-ray all sound and look the same. As a result, many here own systems made from Ronco wink.gif

There is more science that can explain why cables can influence sound than not. That has been explained here by some very credible people/engineer, and I have quoted one of the top engineer's in the country that sent me a very enlightening email. It doesn't matter as the knowledge just bounces off the skeptic's armor.

For the curious, try cables yourself. Borrow them from a local dealer it should cost you nothing to try them. Try JPS Labs, Purist Audio, Analysis Plus, or Cardas in a reasonably well built room with fairly good electronics and speakers. Then you will know....

I remember reading about this test about four/five years ago and still chuckle about it:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/coat-hanger-wire-is-just-as-good-as-a-high-quality-speaker-cable/19366

It's been mentioned ad naseum but here we go again. Been in the music business forever. If there's a difference, I have yet to hear it. I love clear, crisp audio as much as the next member but I'm not going to take the bait and spend my hard-earned money on something that doesn't add to the experience. Diminishing returns, if you will. If there is a noticable difference, then it's time for me to go up in the attic, dig out my physic books, and take them down to the next book fair. With that said, If you like what you buy, then I say go for it. Your system, your money, your satisfaction.
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post #93 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

I have recently tried 10 pairs of speaker cables ranging from "cheap" to exotic. Yes blind tests were run. They all sound different period. More than just tone controls as well. The size of the sound stage can be influenced by cables, among other things.

Do tell us the details of your test. We run into a lot of people who don't know much more about "blind test" than to spell the words. Nothing personal, but that is the real world history of these things.
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post #94 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Far from it.

I have recently tried 10 pairs of speaker cables ranging from "cheap" to exotic. Yes blind tests were run. They all sound different period. More than just tone controls as well. The size of the sound stage can be influenced by cables, among other things. Like the poster said....your loss.

Science can explain quite a bit of this, unfortunately the more that is explained is directly proportional to the aggression and doubt and denial on this site that you get back.

The quality of the copper, using silver or gold conductors, cable awg or geometry, shield material and the way the shield is implemented, and dielectrics can all influence sound.

Remember, in the overall scheme of things, the vocal here are the minority when looking at all the various internet/hobbyist sites. Many in the avs high end forum (above $20....oops subliminal slip wink.gif wrong forum, I mean above $20,000 forum have and discuss high end cables, but they will have nothing to do with the vocal anti-cable police here at avs. This is a great site, as long as you don't want to learn about cables. Many here also think audio processors, amps and blu-ray all sound and look the same. As a result, many here own systems made from Ronco wink.gif

There is more science that can explain why cables can influence sound than not. That has been explained here by some very credible people/engineer, and I have quoted one of the top engineer's in the country that sent me a very enlightening email. It doesn't matter as the knowledge just bounces off the skeptic's armor.

For the curious, try cables yourself. Borrow them from a local dealer it should cost you nothing to try them. Try JPS Labs, Purist Audio, Analysis Plus, or Cardas in a reasonably well built room with fairly good electronics and speakers. Then you will know....

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post #95 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 07:20 PM
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Check out audiogon, audioasylum etc. If you want a more neutral opinion, this place is a joke. That is a fact.
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post #96 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Check out audiogon, audioasylum etc. If you want a more neutral opinion, this place is a joke. That is a fact.
C'mon Todd. Those sites are every bit as one-sided as this one is, just on the other side. I have seen many - page long arguments on Audiogon about which electrical receptacle sounds the best.
The thing with many of the people here is that they are trying to protect newbies and casual users from being told they "must" by X-brand speaker cable, because their system will sound horrible without them, thus enticing them into spending much more $$ than they can really afford.
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post #97 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Check out audiogon, audioasylum etc. If you want a more neutral opinion, this place is a joke. That is a fact.

If this place is a joke then delete your membership and don't come back. I don't care what cable anyone uses, and I do not care how much they spend on their equipment. However, if they ask for my opinion I will advise them of my experience, and what I use. I do not use over priced cables because the "cheap stuff" works just the same.

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post #98 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd68 View Post

Check out audiogon, audioasylum etc. If you want a more neutral opinion, this place is a joke. That is a fact.

Todd, beside the attack on the membership, do you have any actual evidence to support your position? I've asked a few times but you haven't responded.
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post #99 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 11:26 PM
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C'mon Todd. Those sites are every bit as one-sided as this one is, just on the other side. I have seen many - page long arguments on Audiogon about which electrical receptacle sounds the best.
The thing with many of the people here is that they are trying to protect newbies and casual users from being told they "must" by X-brand speaker cable, because their system will sound horrible without them, thus enticing them into spending much more $$ than they can really afford.

That's where I draw the line. wink.gif I purchased many Hubbell 5362 outlets. They perform very well, so no need to spend more than that.

I certainly don't want to encourage people here to buy more than they can afford. Systems may not sound horrible with generic wire of sufficient awg.
Sometimes (though infrequently) a system's synergy will cause minimal gains with high end speaker cables. If so Canare 4s11 or the star quad Belden wire is a great choice. Unfortunately my system did not sound optimal with cheaper wire. Next in line was the Analysis Plus Oval 9. I so wanted this wire to work in my system due to it's lower cost. Unfortunately it did't do so well. The AP Solo Crystal 8 (awg) performed much better in my system, though I didn't end up choosing that wire either. I ended up going with Purist Audio.

I wrestled with the idea of purchasing expensive speaker cables for months. I knew that the wire I chose would be a life long purchase, as is my interconnects and power cords. To do a sanity check, I would call in two other enthusiasts (as I did with previous power cord and interconnect purchases) who were both 100% skeptics until they blindly auditioned cables in my theater. Now they dabble in cables, but not near as high end as the cables in my system.

I don't play the cable of the month game so I don't keep buying new cables nor do I sell my old ones. There's just a good amount of room for improvement with higher end cables. It doesn't mean everyone should take the plunge.

My other systems in the house have cables from Belden and Canare and I am fine with that, but not for my reference system. If you have finished your room/acoustics, finished upgrading your speakers and electronics, and want to tweak then (for some) cables are the final frontier...and an interesting one at that.
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post #100 of 117 Old 01-12-2013, 11:42 PM
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Todd, beside the attack on the membership, do you have any actual evidence to support your position? I've asked a few times but you haven't responded.
P
Same old same
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Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

If this place is a joke then delete your membership and don't come back. I don't care what cable anyone uses, and I do not care how much they spend on their equipment. However, if they ask for my opinion I will advise them of my experience, and what I use. I do not use over priced cables because the "cheap stuff" works just the same.

In your opinion then I agree.
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post #101 of 117 Old 01-13-2013, 08:37 AM
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P
Same old same

In your opinion then I agree.

And the same lack of response. Have fun discussing Unicorns and magic cable dust on the other forums.
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post #102 of 117 Old 01-13-2013, 09:09 AM
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Speaker Cable Preference

As a racer, my bike's fluid bolts, brake components, muffler joints, etc, etc, etc must all be safety wired to avoid incidental loss on the track.

So, I have lots of safety wire and a beautiful pair of safety wire pliars.

I've found that by running safety wire (in place of "traditional" speaker cable) from my amp terminials to my speaker terminals and then doing a nice professional locking spin on the ends, the end result is high effeciency, low profile, lighter weight, improved bass response, cleaner and more articulate mids and highs and by golly, it just looks c:Dooler

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post #103 of 117 Old 01-13-2013, 09:32 AM
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I've found that by running safety wire (in place of "traditional" speaker cable) from my amp terminials to my speaker terminals and then doing a nice professional locking spin on the ends, the end result is high effeciency, low profile, lighter weight, improved bass response, cleaner and more articulate mids and highs and by golly, it just looks
It won't work unless it's cryo-treated platinum plated silver with 4,000 hours of ultra-sonic break-in. rolleyes.gif

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post #104 of 117 Old 01-13-2013, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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well put comment. i am currently looking at the audioquest 14/2 stranded wire. but i will eventually be running a pre amp and amp to power my 4 ohm speakers.my longest run will be about 32 feet.should i go to a 12 gauge stranded wire since i will be running more power. or just possibly just an aq solid wire??i guess seeing a lot of comments it is personal preference.oh well. thanks everyone for your comments.,marc
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post #105 of 117 Old 01-13-2013, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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400 watts per speaker and 400 watts a channel.is what ill be running.
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post #106 of 117 Old 01-13-2013, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ reply from mantis 10 ^^
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post #107 of 117 Old 01-13-2013, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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hey todd68 what wire did you decide to go with that mantis 10 did not mention? i want to keep all options out there to further confuse me and hopefully in the long run will help me choose my final decision. thanks,marc
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post #108 of 117 Old 01-13-2013, 12:13 PM
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well put comment. i am currently looking at the audioquest 14/2 stranded wire. but i will eventually be running a pre amp and amp to power my 4 ohm speakers.my longest run will be about 32 feet.should i go to a 12 gauge stranded wire since i will be running more power. or just possibly just an aq solid wire??i guess seeing a lot of comments it is personal preference.oh well. thanks everyone for your comments.,marc
Use this to calculate required gauge:
http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf

There is no advantage to either stranded or solid wire. Stranded is more popular because it flexes more easily, but you could use Romex at 15 cents a foot and it would work just as well as anything else.

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post #109 of 117 Old 01-14-2013, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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now after entering this site bill i am turned on by buying 8 awg wire due to less resistance and more watts for the speaker while running 400 watts a speaker. i have seen a lot of of copper that is 8awg for about a dollar a foot. some is of copper with tin covering to resist oxygen i guess. would that be okay or better to get a copper with tin plate or stick with the pure copper. thanks,marc
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post #110 of 117 Old 01-14-2013, 01:19 PM
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now after entering this site bill i am turned on by buying 8 awg wire due to less resistance and more watts for the speaker while running 400 watts a speaker. i have seen a lot of of copper that is 8awg for about a dollar a foot. some is of copper with tin covering to resist oxygen i guess. would that be okay or better to get a copper with tin plate or stick with the pure copper. thanks,marc

I would go with 2 gauge, and then you can welded to the speakers no need for banana plugs.biggrin.gif

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post #111 of 117 Old 01-14-2013, 02:14 PM
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now after entering this site bill i am turned on by buying 8 awg wire due to less resistance and more watts for the speaker while running 400 watts a speaker. i have seen a lot of of copper that is 8awg for about a dollar a foot. some is of copper with tin covering to resist oxygen i guess. would that be okay or better to get a copper with tin plate or stick with the pure copper. thanks,marc
Is this supposed to be a joke post? On the off chance that it isn't, watts don't matter. You don't hear watts, you hear decibels. The smallest change you can detect is one decibel, so there's no reason to go to a larger gauge wire when a smaller gauge eats up less than one decibel anyway.

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sorry bill i was going off my old car auidio days of more watts must mean better. but like you stated if its less than a decibel than it's wortless. i just liked the figures on that site with less resistance.right now i have 12/2 wire powering150 watts a channel.i am fine until i sell my receiver and go with a pre amp and amp at 400 watts a channel.even than i think i will be fine with the 12 gauge.that post was a real question and yes i am that stupid. duh thanks bill smile.gif
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post #113 of 117 Old 01-14-2013, 04:33 PM
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sorry bill i was going off my old car auidio days of more watts must mean better. but like you stated if its less than a decibel than it's wortless. i just liked the figures on that site with less resistance.right now i have 12/2 wire powering150 watts a channel.i am fine until i sell my receiver and go with a pre amp and amp at 400 watts a channel.even than i think i will be fine with the 12 gauge.that post was a real question and yes i am that stupid. duh thanks bill smile.gif
There's a big difference between stupid and uninformed. You can't fix stupid, but if you're uninformed you can learn. FWIW there's little to no correlation between power and the required cable gauge, not until you exceed a thousand watts or so. What matters is the wire length and speaker impedance, and keeping the cable insertion loss less than 1dB.

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post #114 of 117 Old 01-14-2013, 06:14 PM
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It won't work unless it's cryo-treated platinum plated silver with 4,000 hours of ultra-sonic break-in. rolleyes.gif

Waaaaay ahead of you, I have only 1682 hours of ultra sonic break in left to go, then it's just 2000 hours of sonic break in.

I have to admit, the CTP plating was a b*tch biggrin.gif

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post #115 of 117 Old 01-14-2013, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks bill now i feel informed.thanks for your help rolleyes.gif
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post #116 of 117 Old 02-08-2013, 12:40 AM
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I work in sports broadcasting and came from an rock n roll background. I engineer TV on multi-million dollar mobile units stacked with a lot of very high end gear. Yes behind the racks we run canare wire but out in the field its basic stock XLR and crappy power strips etc. So all this talk about your system is only as good as its weakest link, and thousand dollar cables, and cryogenically treated outlets are a pure waste of time because that just tells me that the listener who claims they hear a difference is just hearing colored audio and or video. I tend to think at the end of the day, you spend more money on better shielded and strain relieve. Not magic transients. I dont personally care at the end of the day who can rebuttal what on here. Its whatever makes you sleep at night, right? having said that I sleep better running the canare quad and bi-wire my L&R and center and run belden (bi wire) to the rear in ceiling speakers. Have I A&B'd them? NO, but it makes me sleep at night knowing I have a quality cable that wasn't sold to me on a whim that its going to sound like a blanket had been lifted from my speakers, just that its a quality built shielded cable with the proper insulation behind it.

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post #117 of 117 Old 02-08-2013, 12:55 AM
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I work in sports broadcasting and came from an rock n roll background. I engineer TV on multi-million dollar mobile units stacked with a lot of very high end gear. Yes behind the racks we run canare wire but out in the field its basic stock XLR and crappy power strips etc. So all this talk about your system is only as good as its weakest link, and thousand dollar cables, and cryogenically treated outlets are a pure waste of time because that just tells me that the listener who claims they hear a difference is just hearing colored audio and or video. I tend to think at the end of the day, you spend more money on better shielded and strain relieve. Not magic transients. I dont personally care at the end of the day who can rebuttal what on here. Its whatever makes you sleep at night, right? having said that I sleep better running the canare quad and bi-wire my L&R and center and run belden (bi wire) to the rear in ceiling speakers. Have I A&B'd them? NO, but it makes me sleep at night knowing I have a quality cable that wasn't sold to me on a whim that its going to sound like a blanket had been lifted from my speakers, just that its a quality built shielded cable with the proper insulation behind it.

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