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post #451 of 458 Old 01-19-2016, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlomonosov View Post
At first I was thinking of getting the DefTech ProCenter 1000 CC that goes down to 47hz and it is more powerful and sealed and much smaller in size but would not match my IL50s L and R like IL25c/36c match it, not sure if that would have sounded better as DefTech CC would not be same line of speakers and still would be enclosed in that TV Console.
Seriously, take all that "matching" dogma with many grains of salt.

If "matching" your front stage leaves you with a crappy center speaker instead of a competent one, what's the point?

Always better to have a MIS-matched center if that mis-matched center does a better job of giving you nice clear dialogue without needing to crank up the volume---that is the sole function of any center speaker (and the main function of any HT system, aside from the subwoofer supplying enough crash-boom-bang during action flicks).

All the usual HT-forum claims about "timbre matching" being oh-so essential for "front panning effects" are just ivory-tower gibberish---most movies use the front L/R mainly for theme music and NON-panning sound effects. The ones that do have front panning FX usually have just for a couple seconds at a time, maybe a dozen such short intervals max, during the entire length of a typical 2-3 hour movie. Completely irrelevant when you consider that at least 70-80% of that 2-3 hour length is full of DIALOGUE---so you can easily conclude which deserves much higher priority in real world usage, dialogue clarity or "front panning effects."

Also consider the simple fact that unless one is an OCD audio geek, the vast majority of folks' attention is dominated by the visual not auditory faculties during HT.

The "timbre matching" thing only makes sense if you listen to a lot of multi-channel music, e.g. SACD and DVD-A.
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post #452 of 458 Old 01-19-2016, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Seriously, take all that "matching" dogma with many grains of salt.

If "matching" your front stage leaves you with a crappy center speaker instead of a competent one, what's the point?

Always better to have a MIS-matched center if that mis-matched center does a better job of giving you nice clear dialogue without needing to crank up the volume---that is the sole function of any center speaker (and the main function of any HT system, aside from the subwoofer supplying enough crash-boom-bang during action flicks).

All the usual HT-forum claims about "timbre matching" being oh-so essential for "front panning effects" are just ivory-tower gibberish---most movies use the front L/R mainly for theme music and NON-panning sound effects. The ones that do have front panning FX usually have just for a couple seconds at a time, maybe a dozen such short intervals max, during the entire length of a typical 2-3 hour movie. Completely irrelevant when you consider that at least 70-80% of that 2-3 hour length is full of DIALOGUE---so you can easily conclude which deserves much higher priority in real world usage, dialogue clarity or "front panning effects."

Also consider the simple fact that unless one is an OCD audio geek, the vast majority of folks' attention is dominated by the visual not auditory faculties during HT.

The "timbre matching" thing only makes sense if you listen to a lot of multi-channel music, e.g. SACD and DVD-A.

Completely agree here with you. As of right now my Center does not pop like it should with voices during dialogue, even my wife said last night, can you turn the volume up?! Hahaha.. Yea, and this center is a matching set for my IL50/40/30 L and R speakers, not sure if the sound is low due to CC being inside the TV console but still the highs and voice does not pop as it should, IL36c I had was 91db vs this IL25c being 90db sensitivity, but its very little I would assume to be that much different.. Still I am not sure if I go for a beloved DefTech ProCenter 1000 CC it would be much different as it has same 90db sensitivity and still would be inside TV Console.. But might be a better choice, maybe.. But I am interesting to see what it sounds like if I turn the CC OFF/None on my NAD AVR and for AVR now to send CC sound to L and R speakers to see what it sounds like.

I did watch like I mentioned prior that when I put TV on the wall and my equipment inside TV console and did not have CC in it yet I played Apocalypto BlueRay without it in Dolby Digital sound track it had on it and was suprised how little sound my L & R speakers made without CC, I was like why these bit beautiful towers are even there standing all pretty and do absolutely jack playing this movie, it was like little sound affects and bleeding over some louder voices etc, not much.. I have a feeling if my NAD does a good job and send me the CC sound through L and R it might sound amazing for movies as it does for Stereo playing CD's through my BluRay player via RCA cables to AVR..

I just now have to figure out how to play my Music louder via Plex app on Sammy TV from my Plex Server running on my Server upstairs wirelessly. Currently Plex music and Pandora when played through Plex or Pandora app on TV via Optical out to NAD AVR sounds low on sound and I have to UP the volume a lot to get same sound as I play my CDs via RCAs from Sammy BluRay Player, it kind of same if I play CD's on BluRay player and happen to be on BluRay Optical Input on NAD AVR as it does play Stereo that NAD auto triggers but volume is low.. I know its a bit diffrent topic but if anyone has/had same issue, please chime in, as the only solution I see for Plex Music and Pandor Music to sound as loud as CD's through BluRay player via RCAs is to use Single RCA Audio out port on TV out to two RCAs' (L & R) adapter to NAD AVR and plug into one of the RCA Inputs on the NSD to designate for TV Stereo lets say as it should be similar as playing CD's in BluRay player via RCA outputs to AVR.. will see.. Just a pain to try as I have to go behind TV to try it..

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post #453 of 458 Old 01-19-2016, 09:03 PM
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I also have towers on either side of my 60" TV, much like your setup, and they combine to produce dialog that has a ton of depth and sounds just like the actors are in my room, the whole while you would swear that the sound is coming from the TV screen somehow.

I haven't looked back one time since going without a CC.

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post #454 of 458 Old 01-19-2016, 09:29 PM
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Why is the TV mounted so low?

My suggestion is to get it UP, then get the best center speaker you can find to put on top of your console, under the TV. You really don't need the tweeters "in-line" either. I like my sound stage better when the speakers are not lined up like that. Likewise, timbre matching" is overrated, IMO.

There is no such thing as a "phantom" center, that's just a misnomer for pair of speakers which image really well. The issue isn't "center" vs "no-center" but poorly placed center vs properly placed center.
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post #455 of 458 Old 01-19-2016, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
The issue isn't "center" vs "no-center" but poorly placed center vs properly placed center.
Not when you live in a home with other people and you need to respect their requests regarding system placement. If you live by yourself or are lucky enough to have a dedicated HT room, then yea, you do what you need to do to get the entire system properly placed.

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post #456 of 458 Old 01-20-2016, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
I also have towers on either side of my 60" TV, much like your setup, and they combine to produce dialog that has a ton of depth and sounds just like the actors are in my room, the whole while you would swear that the sound is coming from the TV screen somehow.

I haven't looked back one time since going without a CC.
Great to hear D. So I played with center/no center yesterday and you know what I was pleasantly surprised how no center/phantom center sounded vs with my current IL25c. I turned center OFF on NAD AVR, set Speakers as SMALL with crossover at 100hz on AVR for the Subs that are on my IL50s L & R speakers, set distance at 11ft for L & R and 12ft for Surrounds. The voices were obviously not as loud but not bad compared to having a center with +12db setting and L & R at +9db setting on the AVR but yea, the voices were right in the middle of the TV, very nice, watching Jurassic World in DTS through Plex app from Plex Server wqas very nice and the sounds were moving just fine from L to R as dinosaurs moved and growled, this is something to really think about. But when I put the center back in play as SMALL with other setting same and door opened, the sound was practicaly not boxy with crossover at 100hz and obviously the impacts of the effects and voice/convos were louder but not as imaged in the middle of the TV like with phantom center, they were coming from under the TV or its my mind then playing tricks on me. Very nice surprise with phantom as option, I have to watch a few movies and see.

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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
Why is the TV mounted so low?

My suggestion is to get it UP, then get the best center speaker you can find to put on top of your console, under the TV. You really don't need the tweeters "in-line" either. I like my sound stage better when the speakers are not lined up like that. Likewise, timbre matching" is overrated, IMO.

There is no such thing as a "phantom" center, that's just a misnomer for pair of speakers which image really well. The issue isn't "center" vs "no-center" but poorly placed center vs properly placed center.
Actually TV is a bit higher than it should be already, since its a tad tilted hanging on the wall it makes it OK to be eye level otherwise its a few inches (3-4) higher than eye level being in the middle of the TV for perfect height. The TV console is 26in high and TV hangs 3in higher. So putting it higher would be way higher than eye level. The issue with shelves I looked that are 17-19in high, like the one I had is that they are either not deep enough to put my NAD AVR in it or they are too minimalistic like the one I had and have a lot of open air and not too much enclosure to hide all the wires and equipment behind tinted glass like I have now and always wanted so that was the best for me shelf that I was able to find to fit all this, just didn't account the CC sounded boxy and muted behind that door even though it was designed to have CC speaker behind it, live and learn. so for it being a living room and all this clean look is what I had in mind, but yea if the shelf was deep enough and low enough to put a center channel right on top of it and below the TV would be optimal but would not look as nice and clean in the living room in my opinion as it looks now, talking about sacrifices.


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Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
Not when you live in a home with other people and you need to respect their requests regarding system placement. If you live by yourself or are lucky enough to have a dedicated HT room, then yea, you do what you need to do to get the entire system properly placed.
I have to agree, wife makes the rules in my home as far as decorating, had to this look VS optimizing it for HT where I can place my old CC where it belongs. As I said before, the best CC sound I had was when I had my old CC IL36c on the top of the projection TV that was my first HD TV when they came out where the top of the TV was a huge shelf and the whole TV was a big standing box and I had my CC pointing down a bit towards eye level using that adjustment thing in the back of the CC that is built in just for that.
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post #457 of 458 Old 01-20-2016, 08:52 AM
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[QUOTE=dlomonosov;40810570]Great to hear D. So I played with center/no center yesterday and you know what I was pleasantly surprised how no center/phantom center sounded vs with my current IL25c.

I am a big believer that whatever sounds best in YOUR living room with YOUR gear on YOUR speakers should be the ultimate deciding factor. You are not a rookie listener and you obviously have a good ear for critical listening.

However, in this case some things sound "off" to me if you are interested, read on.


I turned center OFF on NAD AVR, set Speakers as SMALL with crossover at 100hz on AVR for the Subs that are on my IL50s L & R speakers, set distance at 11ft for L & R and 12ft for Surrounds.

The voices were obviously not as loud but not bad compared to having a center with +12db setting and L & R at +9db setting on the AVR

This is what bothers me the most, those numbers don't sound right. I watch TV in a regular living room at 13 feet. My Onkyo TX NR-717 Audyssey sets my mis-matched L/C/R speakers at MINUS numbers, -6 for the L/R and -2 for the center. L/R are horn-driven Fusion 10, center is a tweeter-driven Usher (see my avatar). My 3.1 setup is CRYSTAL CLEAR for voices, especially when playing at low volumes, and my setup is really nothing special, maybe $1100 for all three speakers and the AVR which I bought new.

The AVR sets those numbers relative to REFERENCE. That means for your system to reach reference numbers the AVR is really having to work hard, and the +12 on the center means the +12 is probably as high a number as your AVR can push it, it may actually be worse than that.

(snip)
.[/QUOTE

I don't mean to nit-pic you my friend, as I like the looks of your setup and I also have a wife who dictates (OK, strongly suggests ) what the look of the TV space should be. I am more sensitive to how things sound, so we compromise somewhat.

My only point here is I think you are leaving some performance on the table in terms of how your L/C/R is setup, electronically speaking.

Try running your room correction with the subs disabled, and see what the numbers look like. I'm guessing you will NOT get +12 on your center and +9 on the L/R, the numbers will be much lower, like +2 or +3. Then add the subs back in and see if it makes a difference in how things sound. I'm guessing you will have a setup that is MUCH more clear.

Last edited by wvu80; 01-20-2016 at 08:56 AM.
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post #458 of 458 Old 01-20-2016, 09:09 AM
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[quote=wvu80;40815322]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlomonosov View Post
Great to hear D. So I played with center/no center yesterday and you know what I was pleasantly surprised how no center/phantom center sounded vs with my current IL25c.

I am a big believer that whatever sounds best in YOUR living room with YOUR gear on YOUR speakers should be the ultimate deciding factor. You are not a rookie listener and you obviously have a good ear for critical listening.

However, in this case some things sound "off" to me if you are interested, read on.


I turned center OFF on NAD AVR, set Speakers as SMALL with crossover at 100hz on AVR for the Subs that are on my IL50s L & R speakers, set distance at 11ft for L & R and 12ft for Surrounds.

The voices were obviously not as loud but not bad compared to having a center with +12db setting and L & R at +9db setting on the AVR

This is what bothers me the most, those numbers don't sound right. I watch TV in a regular living room at 13 feet. My Onkyo TX NR-717 Audyssey sets my mis-matched L/C/R speakers at MINUS numbers, -6 for the L/R and -2 for the center. L/R are horn-driven Fusion 10, center is a tweeter-driven Usher (see my avatar). My 3.1 setup is CRYSTAL CLEAR for voices, especially when playing at low volumes, and my setup is really nothing special, maybe $1100 for all three speakers and the AVR which I bought new.

The AVR sets those numbers relative to REFERENCE. That means for your system to reach reference numbers the AVR is really having to work hard, and the +12 on the center means the +12 is probably as high a number as your AVR can push it, it may actually be worse than that.

(snip)
.[/QUOTE

I don't mean to nit-pic you my friend, as I like the looks of your setup and I also have a wife who dictates (OK, strongly suggests ) what the look of the TV space should be. I am more sensitive to how things sound, so we compromise somewhat.

My only point here is I think you are leaving some performance on the table in terms of how your L/C/R is setup, electronically speaking.

Try running your room correction with the subs disabled, and see what the numbers look like. I'm guessing you will NOT get +12 on your center and +9 on the L/R, the numbers will be much lower, like +2 or +3. Then add the subs back in and see if it makes a difference in how things sound. I'm guessing you will have a setup that is MUCH more clear.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it. I have a 2 story 3k sq ft home with a very open plan so my living room is big, its 19x24 with two story ceilings so my 100x6 channel receiver is bit under powered for this room when listening to surround sound and I can easily max out (only when in surround) my receiver volume if I want to play a movie loud so I had to add the volume on AVR for speakers so I do not. If I lower them to flat 0db they will just be lower volume and I can max out the volume that way, so them being set this way I can crank volume to -9db when watching a movie and it would pretty loud, if I had to bring those Speaker levels to 0db and lets say CC to =3db to stand out from L&R I can easily max out while still sounding loud at max volume of +12db, so this way I have a cushion sort of speak.

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