Goodbye Center Channel - Page 6 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #151 of 384 Old 11-24-2013, 05:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,923
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1517
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

What does UHL have to do with matching the number of speakers to the number of ears? As kbarnes said, having 7 ears is not a prerequisite to having a 7.1 speaker layout. The person I was replying to thought that he needed a third ear to make use of a centre speaker.
The point that I thought I made perfectly clear is that if you have only one ear there's no point in having more than one speaker, but if you have two that's all you need to directionally locate any number of speakers.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #152 of 384 Old 11-24-2013, 05:14 PM
Senior Member
 
Speed Daemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Amazing that people believe the number of speakers has anything to do with the number of ears.
LOL...only to those who are ignorant of the principles behind the products.

You get what you pay for.  For professional advice, pay the professional rate.
Speed Daemon is offline  
post #153 of 384 Old 11-24-2013, 05:34 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,619
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1214 Post(s)
Liked: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The point that I thought I made perfectly clear is that if you have only one ear there's no point in having more than one speaker, but if you have two that's all you need to directionally locate any number of speakers.
What does that have to do with a discussion of needing more than 2 ears in order to use more than 2 speakers?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #154 of 384 Old 11-24-2013, 05:35 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,619
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1214 Post(s)
Liked: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

LOL...only to those who are ignorant of the principles behind the products.
LOL....at least you're confessing to it.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #155 of 384 Old 11-24-2013, 06:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rdclark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Philadelphia Vicinity
Posts: 4,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

What does that have to do with a discussion of needing more than 2 ears in order to use more than 2 speakers?

It has specifically to do with the specific sentence that he specifically quoted when he posted the response:

"Amazing that people believe the number of speakers has anything to do with the number of ears."

If you're going to nitpick someone, "measure twice, cut once." tongue.gif

Wide Awake

on the Edge

of the World

 

rdclark is offline  
post #156 of 384 Old 11-24-2013, 07:36 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,619
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1214 Post(s)
Liked: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

It has specifically to do with the specific sentence that he specifically quoted when he posted the response:

"Amazing that people believe the number of speakers has anything to do with the number of ears."
The specific context of the specific sentence that he specifically quoted was specifically in response to needing a third ear in order to use the centre channel. Nothing to do with UHL.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #157 of 384 Old 11-24-2013, 08:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JerryLove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan81 View Post

So you are agreeing with me that you cannot have directional sound without at least two speakers. In fact, if you could place 100 speakers, it would get the best directional sound, though even I wouldn't like going for that for obvious reasons (most of it concern monetary reasons). With each extra speaker, set up properly in a capable room, the directionality will get better. Headphones are of course easy to use for directional sound and balance, though I like to watch movies with others and then it is nearly impossible to get a good sound stage in my situation without a center.
I guess sarcasm needs a font.

You can make directionality completely with two speakers (in an acoustically dead room). It can also be done very near-field (Alien Encounter at Disney did such an excellent job of this).

It's easier to make directionality by placing an actual speaker in the direction that interests you; but then you are limited to exactly the spots where speakers are placed.

I'm sorry that I cannot remember (or find) the website. It did a very convincing "behind" and "above" with only two speakers.

Generally speaking: the idea doesn't even pass the sniff test. When I'm in a theater, I don't hear 7 distinct locations; I hear several in-between. This is because sound is run across multiple speakers to get my brain to average. This is also because echos can be faked.
JerryLove is offline  
post #158 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 03:23 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,664
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1891 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If you're deaf in one ear you can't directionally locate, so you can use one speaker or a dozen and it won't matter.
What does UHL have to do with matching the number of speakers to the number of ears? As kbarnes said, having 7 ears is not a prerequisite to having a 7.1 speaker layout. The person I was replying to thought that he needed a third ear to make use of a centre speaker.

 

is it even true that someone deaf in one ear cannot directionally locate. I understand that it is theoretically so, but it is also theoretically so that people with one eye lack the ability to locate spatially with regard to 'depth' and distance. However, a friend of mine with one eye says that he can indeed do these things because, it seems his brain has discovered some way to add depth clues to his monocular vision. This was not the case immediately after he lost the eye, but 'grew' gradually over time. He can also catch things thrown to him with, it seems, better ability in that regard than I can (and I have two eyes with better than 20/20 vision). His ability in this regard is not as good as it was when he had two eyes, but it is good enough, for example, to allow him to drive safely - something he could not do immediately after losing the eye. 

 

It is not germane to the current discussion wrt to the number of ears and number of speakers, but it is interesting I think and is yet more evidence of the amazing capacity of the human brain to find workarounds when required.

 

WRT to UHL, I too cannot see any connection between that and the theoretical requirement for the number of speakers to match the number of ears. I am amazed that anyone would think it was even remotely connected.

 

Wasn't the remark that "I’ll get a centre speaker when I grow a centre ear" intended to be flippant?  I assumed so. Surely nobody believes that they listen to the left speaker with their left ear and the right speaker with their right ear? If that was the case, what the heck do we use to listen to the rear surrounds with?  LOL.

kbarnes701 is offline  
post #159 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 05:26 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,382
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 753 Post(s)
Liked: 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

My view is that I'll consider buying a center speaker right after my center ear grows in.

Mecha-hexadecapus.

If you want to seriously question that thought, effectively plug one ear and listen with just your center channel speakers, just the L&R, and then all 3 plugged in.
arnyk is offline  
post #160 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 05:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Speed Daemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If you want to seriously question that thought, effectively plug one ear and listen with just your center channel speakers, just the L&R, and then all 3 plugged in.
I don't have a center speaker, nor do I need one. And since I'm partially deaf in one ear, I don't need to plug it.

If you care to study it's history, you'll find that the center channel is a relic left over from the early years of the film industry, when sound recording technology was extremely crude. The spoken voices were put on the center speakers in theaters, and could be operated independently from the M&E (music & effects) channel if the audience had trouble hearing the dialog. A convenience for a time long past. It never was intended for spatial resolution, and because of binaural hearing it never was really necessary. Now that audio recording technology has advanced, it has become a gimmick used to part gullible consumers from their money.

BTW I did notice that what you asked me to do was set up to create a false impression. A fair comparison would be to listen to a surround sound system being fed by the surround channels against a stereo system being fed by the stereo channels. Obviously "breaking" a setup will make it sound odd. Nice try, but it's not going to fool me.

You get what you pay for.  For professional advice, pay the professional rate.
Speed Daemon is offline  
post #161 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 06:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,597
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Liked: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

A convenience for a time long past. It never was intended for spatial resolution, and because of binaural hearing it never was really necessary.

I know my sweet spot would be big enough for an HT room for just one person, seated right in the middle, so it is quite necessary in real life.

psgcdn is online now  
post #162 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 06:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,664
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1891 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If you want to seriously question that thought, effectively plug one ear and listen with just your center channel speakers, just the L&R, and then all 3 plugged in.
I don't have a center speaker, nor do I need one. And since I'm partially deaf in one ear, I don't need to plug it.

If you care to study it's history, you'll find that the center channel is a relic left over from the early years of the film industry, when sound recording technology was extremely crude. The spoken voices were put on the center speakers in theaters, and could be operated independently from the M&E (music & effects) channel if the audience had trouble hearing the dialog. A convenience for a time long past. It never was intended for spatial resolution, and because of binaural hearing it never was really necessary. Now that audio recording technology has advanced, it has become a gimmick used to part gullible consumers from their money.

BTW I did notice that what you asked me to do was set up to create a false impression. A fair comparison would be to listen to a surround sound system being fed by the surround channels against a stereo system being fed by the stereo channels. Obviously "breaking" a setup will make it sound odd. Nice try, but it's not going to fool me.

 

You are obviously entitled to your own opinion, but there are some considerations you are omitting to mention.

 

First, yes, I agree that if you are listening to two channel music, you do not need a centre speaker. Two is perfectly adequate and a good phantom image can be formed at the centre from just the L and R channels, for one person listening. Of course, if the listener moves off centre, then the imaging is ruined as the whole soundstage shifts to the left or right. 

 

But if you are talking about movies then a centre channel becomes a requirement, simply because movies are often/usually watched by more than one person at the same time. Thus a phantom centre channel cannot work satisfactorily  in those circumstances because two people cannot sit at the same place at the same time. By using a physical centre channel, dialogue and other effects will always be locked to the centre of the screen regardless of where the listener sits in the theatre.

 

Also, approximately 70% of all the sound in a movie emanates from the centre channel. Because of the importance of that, a physical channel will always image better than a phantom channel. So really, even when you say that a centre channel is not 'intended for spatial resolution' that is not quite right - a physical speaker will in all circumstances image (provide spatial resolution) better than a phantom 'speaker'. 

 

If your HT only has one seat, and it is dead centre between L and R speakers, then a phantom centre could possibly give a reasonable result. But it will never be as good as a physical speaker in the centre. Physical always beats phantom. 

Johan81 likes this.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #163 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 06:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,923
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

If you care to study it's history, you'll find that the center channel is a relic left over from the early years of the film industry, when sound recording technology was extremely crude. The spoken voices were put on the center speakers in theaters, and could be operated independently from the M&E (music & effects) channel if the audience had trouble hearing the dialog.
The 'early years' of the film industry was 1927. What you describe did not come along until the 1970s, being the earliest form of multi-channel sound, a precursor to what we have today.
Quote:
because of binaural hearing it never was really necessary.
The entire purpose of binaural hearing is it allows one to directionally locate a sound source via triangulation. Our brains have sufficient processing power to triangulate the location of literally dozens of sources simultaneously. The notion that we need an ear per sound source, and all of the rest of the disinformation that you've posted, indicates a profound lack of technical knowledge with respect to both sound reproduction gear, acoustics and audiology. Posting it is your right, but it should be qualified with the disclaimer that your opinions are purely subjective, with no objective facts to support your conclusions.
Johan81 likes this.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #164 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 07:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Speed Daemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

I know my sweet spot would be big enough for an HT room for just one person, seated right in the middle, so it is quite necessary in real life.
First of all, a theater shouldn't have a sweet spot. By definition a theater is for many people.

With current state of the art in sound reproduction technology, center speakers are a kludge for people who lack the engineering skills to be able to develop their own plan. But it's far from a necessity. A home theater isn't necessary.

If you had said "I don't know how it works, but I like it", I'd respect that. That's an honest and legitimate point of view.

You get what you pay for.  For professional advice, pay the professional rate.
Speed Daemon is offline  
post #165 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 07:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rdclark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Philadelphia Vicinity
Posts: 4,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 189
If you just said "I don't care whether or not the dialog appears to be emanating from the screen no matter where I am sitting in the room," I could respect that.

But by trying to disguise your technical (and historical) ignorance in gobbledygook, you're just embarrassing yourself.

Wide Awake

on the Edge

of the World

 

rdclark is offline  
post #166 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 07:34 AM
Senior Member
 
Speed Daemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
If sounds "appear" to you, you need to lay off the drugs.

You get what you pay for.  For professional advice, pay the professional rate.
Speed Daemon is offline  
post #167 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 07:44 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,664
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1891 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

If you care to study it's history, you'll find that the center channel is a relic left over from the early years of the film industry, when sound recording technology was extremely crude. The spoken voices were put on the center speakers in theaters, and could be operated independently from the M&E (music & effects) channel if the audience had trouble hearing the dialog.
The 'early years' of the film industry was 1927. What you describe did not come along until the 1970s, being the earliest form of multi-channel sound, a precursor to what we have today.
Quote:
because of binaural hearing it never was really necessary.
The entire purpose of binaural hearing is it allows one to directionally locate a sound source via triangulation. Our brains have sufficient processing power to triangulate the location of literally dozens of sources simultaneously. The notion that we need an ear per sound source, and all of the rest of the disinformation that you've posted, indicates a profound lack of technical knowledge with respect to both sound reproduction gear, acoustics and audiology. Posting it is your right, but it should be qualified with the disclaimer that your opinions are purely subjective, with no objective facts to support your conclusions.

 

+1 +1 +1.

kbarnes701 is offline  
post #168 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 07:47 AM
Senior Member
 
Speed Daemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You are obviously entitled to your own opinion, but there are some considerations you are omitting to mention.
I'm not omitting anything. I'm just speaking to that particular post. I never said I'd write a comprehensive guide here.

Quote:
First, yes, I agree that if you are listening to two channel music, you do not need a centre speaker. Two is perfectly adequate and a good phantom image can be formed at the centre from just the L and R channels, for one person listening. Of course, if the listener moves off centre, then the imaging is ruined as the whole soundstage shifts to the left or right.
You're claiming that people aren't conscious of when they move about, and I can't agree with that. If I was at a live event and got up and moved about, I certainly wouldn't expect to hear exactly the same aural image as when I was facing the stage. Likewise, sitting in seats other than dead center do not "ruin" the experience for most people.

I would respect what you say more if you didn't use prejudicial language like "phantom image" to describe monophonic content. Needless to say, two speakers can handle monophonic content equally as well as one.

You get what you pay for.  For professional advice, pay the professional rate.
Speed Daemon is offline  
post #169 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 07:48 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,664
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1891 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

I know my sweet spot would be big enough for an HT room for just one person, seated right in the middle, so it is quite necessary in real life.
First of all, a theater shouldn't have a sweet spot. By definition a theater is for many people.

 

Which is exactly why a centre channel/speaker is necessary.

 

 

Quote:

 With current state of the art in sound reproduction technology, center speakers are a kludge for people who lack the engineering skills to be able to develop their own plan. But it's far from a necessity. A home theater isn't necessary.

If you had said "I don't know how it works, but I like it", I'd respect that. That's an honest and legitimate point of view.

 

If you had said "I don't really have much idea of what I am talking about, but I'll say it anyway". I'd respect that. That's an honest and legitimate point of view. :)

kbarnes701 is offline  
post #170 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 07:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,664
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1891 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

If you just said "I don't care whether or not the dialog appears to be emanating from the screen no matter where I am sitting in the room," I could respect that.

But by trying to disguise your technical (and historical) ignorance in gobbledygook, you're just embarrassing yourself.

 

+1.

kbarnes701 is offline  
post #171 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 07:53 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,664
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1891 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You are obviously entitled to your own opinion, but there are some considerations you are omitting to mention.
I'm not omitting anything. I'm just speaking to that particular post. I never said I'd write a comprehensive guide here.

 

We should be thankful for small mercies I guess ;)

 

Quote:
 
Quote:
First, yes, I agree that if you are listening to two channel music, you do not need a centre speaker. Two is perfectly adequate and a good phantom image can be formed at the centre from just the L and R channels, for one person listening. Of course, if the listener moves off centre, then the imaging is ruined as the whole soundstage shifts to the left or right.
You're claiming that people aren't conscious of when they move about, and I can't agree with that. If I was at a live event and got up and moved about, I certainly wouldn't expect to hear exactly the same aural image as when I was facing the stage. Likewise, sitting in seats other than dead center do not "ruin" the experience for most people.

I would respect what you say more if you didn't use prejudicial language like "phantom image" to describe monophonic content. Needless to say, two speakers can handle monophonic content equally as well as one.

 

You really do have no idea about all this, do you?  'Phantom image' is the normal term for an image which appears to emanate from a location where there is no physical speaker. It is not a term which describes monophonic content although of course monophonic content will reproduce as a phantom image between two speakers in a 2.0 setup. It is perfectly possible, and usual, for a stereophonic source to produce phantom imaging - for example to the left and right of the centre position.

 

There are two ways someone can use AVS. As a learning resource so they can develop an understanding of audio visual science. And as a place to put forward half-baked notions unsupported by any evidence or facts. I recommend the former.

 

If you wish to embark on that course and save yourself from further embarrassment, here is a useful article on phantom imaging:

 

http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/principles_of_multitrack_mixing_the_phantom_image/

kbarnes701 is offline  
post #172 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 08:03 AM
Senior Member
 
Speed Daemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The 'early years' of the film industry was 1927. What you describe did not come along until the 1970s, being the earliest form of multi-channel sound, a precursor to what we have today.
What I was referring to was developed and implemented in the 1930s, and was the status quo in movie theaters through the 1970s, when new technologies like Sensurround and Sound 360 changed theater sound for the first time in 40 years. Until then, just about every movie theater had three Altec Voice of the Theater loudspeakers behind the screen.

I had a friend who worked in a movie theater in the 1970s, and showed me how it works. You couldn't have picked a worse target for your revisionist history.

Quote:
The entire purpose of binaural hearing is it allows one to directionally locate a sound source via triangulation.
LOL...you shot yourself in the foot with that! I'm not going to dignify it with a response, other than to point out that humans have binaural hearing by default. We were born that way, and we can't add more ears.

You get what you pay for.  For professional advice, pay the professional rate.
Speed Daemon is offline  
post #173 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 08:08 AM
Senior Member
 
Speed Daemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Which is exactly why a centre channel/speaker is necessary.
I invite you to try to convince me by providing an argument to support that assertion. Just saying it does not make it so.

I'll also thank you to not stoop to rude and unproductive personal attacks.

You get what you pay for.  For professional advice, pay the professional rate.
Speed Daemon is offline  
post #174 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 08:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
67jason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,900
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 793
Good thing my living room theater doesnt sound like a 70's era movie theater....I'd shoot myself for spending what I spent and only achieving outdated fidelity.

You don't like center channel speakers, that's cool. But at least come up with valid reasons, like your own personal preference, rather the gobedly gook - as someone else so eloquently put it.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
67jason is offline  
post #175 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 08:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,619
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1214 Post(s)
Liked: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

If you care to study it's history, you'll find that the center channel is a relic left over from the early years of the film industry, when sound recording technology was extremely crude. The spoken voices were put on the center speakers in theaters, and could be operated independently from the M&E (music & effects) channel if the audience had trouble hearing the dialog. A convenience for a time long past. It never was intended for spatial resolution, and because of binaural hearing it never was really necessary. Now that audio recording technology has advanced, it has become a gimmick used to part gullible consumers from their money.
Stereo, from the Greek sterios, means solid, as in 3D (like what you see through a stereo microscope). It has nothing to do with 2 channels, 2 speakers or 2 of anything. With that in mind, when Bell Labs was inventing stereo in the early 1930s they discovered that 3 channels/speakers was the minimum needed to create a realistic wavefront that felt solid (3D) to listeners. The centre speaker in that set-up had nothing to do with movie dialogue; all the testing had been done using music.

Early movie sound used a single speaker that combined dialogue, music and effects. The first movie to use 3 speakers across the front was Disney's 'Fantasia' in 1940. Anyone who has seen that film would understand that the centre speaker wasn't there for dialogue (since there was hardly any in the film), let alone to allow spoken voices to be "operated independently from the M&E (music & effects) channel if the audience had trouble hearing the dialog". It was intended for spatial resolution, that too for music.

As Bill mentioned, the movie industry went from mono (one channel) to stereo (3 channels) up front in the mid 1970s, taking it mainstream rather than limiting it to event movies (like the aformentioned 'Fantasia'). Note that the movie industry uses the term "stereo" in the classical sense rather than to mean 2 channels or 2 speakers that has become the more common usage. Again, the centre was never just a dialogue channel, since 60% or more of the soundtrack (including music and effects) often comes from that one channel.

If you care to study its history...
kbarnes701 likes this.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #176 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 08:46 AM
Senior Member
 
Speed Daemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

You don't like center channel speakers, that's cool. But at least come up with valid reasons, like your own personal preference, rather the gobedly gook - as someone else so eloquently put it.
How ironic. rolleyes.gif You might want to follow your own advice. If you have an argument for why the OP should keep a center channel, then make it.

Contrary to the popular saying, hurling insults and name-calling only makes an ass of you.

BTW, I already have made my point. I'd say the fact that nobody is willing to try to rebut the point itself pretty much says it all.

You get what you pay for.  For professional advice, pay the professional rate.
Speed Daemon is offline  
post #177 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 08:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
67jason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,900
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 793
1. I think your point has been rebutted with valid technical reasoning presented.

2. Where did I hurl insults?

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
67jason is offline  
post #178 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 08:55 AM
Senior Member
 
dowop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: N.E. Ohio
Posts: 393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I have tried both ways. For me & family center channel makes a big difference.
dowop is offline  
post #179 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 09:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
psgcdn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prov. of Quebec, Canada
Posts: 4,597
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Liked: 234
Quote:
I know my sweet spot would be big enough for an HT room for just one person, seated right in the middle, so it is quite necessary in real life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

First of all, a theater shouldn't have a sweet spot. By definition a theater is for many people.
That was my point. My sweet spot is great for stereo music, seated alone, but not great for 4 people sitting in the room. We want voices to come from the middle, as intended, rather than the side of the screen that we are sitting on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

With current state of the art in sound reproduction technology, center speakers are a kludge for people who lack the engineering skills to be able to develop their own plan. But it's far from a necessity. A home theater isn't necessary.

If you had said "I don't know how it works, but I like it", I'd respect that. That's an honest and legitimate point of view.
Huh? I am afraid that you have lost me here.

So, in your opinion, I am using a center speaker (fed by the discrete channel of the movie soundtrack as recorded by the movie makers) as a kludge because I lack the engineering skills to be able to develop my own plan?

psgcdn is online now  
post #180 of 384 Old 11-25-2013, 10:36 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,664
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1891 Post(s)
Liked: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Which is exactly why a centre channel/speaker is necessary.
I invite you to try to convince me by providing an argument to support that assertion. Just saying it does not make it so.

I'll also thank you to not stoop to rude and unproductive personal attacks.

 

So how did you get in with that article which explains what a phantom image is?

 

Edited to add: I have looked back through my posts and I can't see any personal attacks. If you could be more specific, I will go back and edit the posts which seem to be causing offence. It is not my intention to offend you - just to point out that what you are saying is rubbish.

kbarnes701 is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Paradigm Studio 60

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off