Review: Selah Audio center for Salk Songtowers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 38 Old 01-05-2013, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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So I have/had a mismatched color songcenter to a set of songtowers (I bought all three used, hence the mismatch)

I sold the songcenter and was going to order a matching one, when I started to think if I could get a "better" center in the process. Jim didn't seem too interested in designing a custom 3 way - he didn't think the cost/performance ratio would be worth it.

I've been thinking of getting a custom design from Selah to match the songtowers, and just wanted to see what the gm forum thought?

Good idea? Bad idea? Anyone with similar experiences?

Thanks -

Edit: I changed the title feb 7th

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post #2 of 38 Old 01-06-2013, 07:27 AM
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It will most likely work just fine, if not better than the Salk center, but I am sure others may disagree. The main difference is going to be in the crossover, as without a detailed blueprint they can not match it properly, right? Selah has been on my radar for quite some time, and I have kicked around the idea of ordering their 3 way simi-bookshelf speaker that has the RAAL and Accuton dome mid-range. They offer this one in kit form, and I am chomping at the bit, debating on whether or not to order them!

I say go for it, and if it doesn't work out, you could always sell that selah center channel speaker to me! (I am serious!)
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post #3 of 38 Old 01-06-2013, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I took the attitude of "it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" and pulled the trigger. Rick, by the way, was all class to deal with. Now comes 3-4 weeks of waiting.

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post #4 of 38 Old 01-06-2013, 09:16 AM
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Unless you watch alot at off axis , the ST center worjks fine. Not all mtm center are the same. But if you wanted a true 3 way, it will probably be better but what are the chances for Rick to do a single center to match your current salk? If is something slong the selah lines, it may not timbre match the ST. So is going to be a difficult decision.
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post #5 of 38 Old 01-08-2013, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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That was one of the reasons that got me thinking about this - I have a big room, so there does end up being a lot of off-axis listening.

Rick is using similar drivers (Seas woofer and midrange, Hiquphon tweeter) and was confident he'd have a tonal match.

Selah and Salk seems to share certain design philosophies, so I figured I'd give it a try. I'll post impressions if anyone's still interested.

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post #6 of 38 Old 01-08-2013, 09:32 AM
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I am sure the custom center will work out fine considering Rick is using the same drivers. Jim would have done it for you, though; don't confuse his honesty regarding whether he thinks it will be worth it or not for his willingness to create the design. Jim will make you anything you want, even if he knows it'll sound like crap. He'll just be sure to warn you that it might sound like poo before allowing you to commit to the purchase. smile.gif He's an honest dude! With that said, a custom 3-way center channel with a dedicated midrange will not sound like poo, so I think you'll be happy with your purchase.

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post #7 of 38 Old 01-15-2013, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

Unless you watch alot at off axis , the ST center worjks fine. Not all mtm center are the same. But if you wanted a true 3 way, it will probably be better but what are the chances for Rick to do a single center to match your current salk? If is something slong the selah lines, it may not timbre match the ST. So is going to be a difficult decision.

Thanks to madhuski for encouraging me to add my thoughts here. True, not all MTM centers are the same but they all have compromises compared to a 3-way design. The horizontal response of the MTM is less of an issue if you're on-axis; however, what you hear is still affected by the composite response of the horizontal angles.

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post #8 of 38 Old 01-15-2013, 04:10 PM
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We
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post

Thanks to madhuski for encouraging me to add my thoughts here. True, not all MTM centers are the same but they all have compromises compared to a 3-way design. The horizontal response of the MTM is less of an issue if you're on-axis; however, what you hear is still affected by the composite response of the horizontal angles.

Well Rick is really nice to hear that will go overboard and do a matching center for the songtower. I actually thought you would not bother since there isnt much profit from it. Im pretty sure a proper center like the one you offer are superior to the mtm desing.
In fact im always checking on your speaker but i havent made up my mind on what sound i like.
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post #9 of 38 Old 01-16-2013, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

We
Well Rick is really nice to hear that will go overboard and do a matching center for the songtower. I actually thought you would not bother since there isnt much profit from it. Im pretty sure a proper center like the one you offer are superior to the mtm desing.
In fact im always checking on your speaker but i havent made up my mind on what sound i like.

We talked about different drivers and settled on Seas woofers, a Seas midrange, and the Hiquphon tweeter. The advantages of a 3-way center over a horizontal MTM make the extra cost worth it; otherwise, I wouldn't build it. The horizontal MTM's exist for two reasons - lower cost and usually a smaller and lower profile cabinet. If f cabinet height is an issue then a concentric driver is a better option or a 3-way using a small mid (3") and woofers that fit within the height limitation.

To match best you want to have similar tonality and even coverage. The ideal situation is to have the same polar pattern for all three speakers but it's impossible to do in this case with the L/R being a MTM and not in the same plane as the center (such as a L/R/CC centrally located behind a screen).

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post #10 of 38 Old 01-28-2013, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Notified by Rick it's on the way! Look like I hoped it would - matches the towers really well.

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 85CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 85CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 85

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post #11 of 38 Old 02-07-2013, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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So I've had the center hooked up for a few days now, I thought I'd post a few impressions. I'm decidedly not an audiophile, so bear with me


1) ordering process - Rick was as nice as could be. I exchanged roughly 25-30 emails over three weeks, talking about what in looking for etc. we settled on this combo. He kept md well updated during the three week build.

2) packaging - arrived well packaged. Double boxed and well "foamed". No scrstches

3) fit/finish - impeccable. I chose a standard cherry finish, and while not an exacted match (which Rick could have done for a bit more) it is a 98% match and no own can tell the center is a differrent build than the songtowers.

4) Sound - in a word: fantastic. First: it's, to my ears, a tonal/timbre match to the Songtowers. pans sound perfect. Second, it does improve upon the two areas I was looking for. Off-axis listening is noticeably better, as is dialogue clarity particularly at low to medium volumes. This latter point has been my "holy grail" for the past year, and I think each change I've made (SVS SCS to Aperion VGC to Boston Acoustics VS 325 to Songcenter to the Selah center) has made a definite improvement. In a way, the best way I can describe the Selah Center is that it sounds very similar to the Salk Songcenter it replaced, but just that extra bit more clearer. My wife, who is very anti-HT, even commemted on how movie dislogue was clearer. This is not a knock on the songcenter at all - I thought it was fantastic, and would have no qualms reccomending it to a friend. But, to me it was $400 well spent to make the change.

Again, these are my non-audiophile impressions, and I'm undoubtedly influenced by having spent money on this, but I'm extremely happy with the speaker. Rick sent me some plots during the testing phase, which I can post if anyone is interested.

Cheers!


Sorry for all the spelling errors - done on an iPhone.

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post #12 of 38 Old 02-07-2013, 02:09 PM
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Glad you are happy how it come out.
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post #13 of 38 Old 02-07-2013, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski View Post

So I've had the center hooked up for a few days now, I thought I'd post a few impressions. I'm decidedly not an audiophile, so bear with me


1) ordering process - Rick was as nice as could be. I exchanged roughly 25-30 emails over three weeks, talking about what in looking for etc. we settled on this combo. He kept md well updated during the three week build.

2) packaging - arrived well packaged. Double boxed and well "foamed". No scrstches

3) fit/finish - impeccable. I chose a standard cherry finish, and while not an exacted match (which Rick could have done for a bit more) it is a 98% match and no own can tell the center is a differrent build than the songtowers.

4) Sound - in a word: fantastic. First: it's, to my ears, a tonal/timbre match to the Songtowers. pans sound perfect. Second, it does improve upon the two areas I was looking for. Off-axis listening is noticeably better, as is dialogue clarity particularly at low to medium volumes. This latter point has been my "holy grail" for the past year, and I think each change I've made (SVS SCS to Aperion VGC to Boston Acoustics VS 325 to Songcenter to the Selah center) has made a definite improvement. In a way, the best way I can describe the Selah Center is that it sounds very similar to the Salk Songcenter it replaced, but just that extra bit more clearer. My wife, who is very anti-HT, even commemted on how movie dislogue was clearer. This is not a knock on the songcenter at all - I thought it was fantastic, and would have no qualms reccomending it to a friend. But, to me it was $400 well spent to make the change.

Again, these are my non-audiophile impressions, and I'm undoubtedly influenced by having spent money on this, but I'm extremely happy with the speaker. Rick sent me some plots during the testing phase, which I can post if anyone is interested.

Cheers!


Sorry for all the spelling errors - done on an iPhone.

Thanks for the report. I, for one, would love to see the response and impedence graphs.

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post #14 of 38 Old 02-08-2013, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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hey mudslide - I'll post the graphs next week (on vacation!)

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post #15 of 38 Old 02-17-2013, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Hope this works. Here are the files rick had sent me.


1) MKCCHORI: Overlaid curves for on-axis, 15 degrees off-axis, and 30 degrees off-axis (horizontal).

2) MKCCIMP: Impedance is 6 ohms with the minimum being 2.9 ohms. The minimum isn’t a problem because it’s centered at about 900 hz and the phase angle is moderate.

3) MKCCNEAR: Sealed box response rolls off ery gradual which leads to optimum integration with a subwoofer.

4) MKCCONAX: On-axis curve.

5) MKCCVERT: Overlaid vertical curves from 15 degrees below the mid to 15 degrees above the tweeter.







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post #16 of 38 Old 02-18-2013, 12:45 AM
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Very nice.
These could actually turn into some flloorstander. The Hiquivon tweeter has great dispersion up high, and off axis remain flat and consistant.
Good job Rick.
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post #17 of 38 Old 02-18-2013, 05:43 AM
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It's all coming together quite nicely, MadH. Am I cornfused or did I see from another thread that you also just added a nice HSU sub. It'll do very well for you. Because your new center rolls off rather quickly below 100 Hz, I'd set the crossover for the center speaker to no lower than 80 Hz.

I know you're gonna really enjoy your new system. Congrats!

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post #18 of 38 Old 02-19-2013, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

It's all coming together quite nicely, MadH. Am I cornfused or did I see from another thread that you also just added a nice HSU sub. It'll do very well for you. Because your new center rolls off rather quickly below 100 Hz, I'd set the crossover for the center speaker to no lower than 80 Hz.

I know you're gonna really enjoy your new system. Congrats!

Mud

Yup - that was me.

I think I've reached a point where I've staved off the upgrade big for a while.

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post #19 of 38 Old 02-19-2013, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
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Yup - that was me.

I think I've reached a point where I've staved off the upgrade big for a while.

Usually my wallet expires long before any sated audio satisfaction. frown.gif

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post #20 of 38 Old 02-19-2013, 11:15 AM
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So are your ST non-RAAL?
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post #21 of 38 Old 02-19-2013, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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So are your ST non-RAAL?

I have the dome tweeters. Rick, I believe, could do a ribbon in the center if needed.

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post #22 of 38 Old 02-21-2013, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
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I have the dome tweeters. Rick, I believe, could do a ribbon in the center if needed.

The RAAL could easily be substituted; however, it would not be the 70-20XR as used in the Salk speakers unless the center is angled towards the listening position or sitting at ear level. The reason for that is that the RAAL 70-10D (as well as the Hiquphon OW2 used here) have better vertical coverage. The height of the cabinet also increases some with the ribbon due to the longer flange.

There was also a comment about the bass response earlier in this thread. The target here was a 80hz crossover point with a -6db L-R filter. With a sealed box there's less phase shift than a ported center which makes it easier to integrate with a subwoofer. It also allows for a more compact cabinet. I believe it also adds clarity to dialogue because there's less low frequency masking.

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post #23 of 38 Old 03-04-2013, 06:15 AM
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I purchsed a pair of Song towers with the Raal " used " and needed some surrounds that would blend well so I orderd a pair from Rick . I was told 3 weeks and they showed up right on time I am very happy with them they sound awesome .
Rick was a great person to deal with no problems great product .

http://youtu.be/mZbO2arzffI
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post #24 of 38 Old 03-04-2013, 01:19 PM
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Your surrounds have RAAL? What configuration did he go with?
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post #25 of 38 Old 03-04-2013, 01:21 PM
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Seas ER15RLY Woofer which matches the Songs

Fountek Ribbon Tweeter

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post #26 of 38 Old 03-04-2013, 03:58 PM
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Interesting you went with the Fountek ..was that you or Rick? Why did you decided to go with the Fountek rather than a Raal? Cost? How close is the sound?
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post #27 of 38 Old 03-04-2013, 04:20 PM
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I asked Rick if he could build these surrounds this way and asked him his thoughts, it was agreed that this would work well for me and blend with my raal front stage .

They blend very nice with my setup , I didnt see any reason on spending the money on raal surrounds

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post #28 of 38 Old 03-04-2013, 04:24 PM
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Some would say any ribbon tweeter for surrounds is "over kill". I think you went with a nice middle ground. Foundtek are some seriously nice tweeters. Ask Dennis Murphy. I think he would agree also.

Makes one wonder...how much difference there really is between a Raal and a fountek though...

So they blend a 100% seemless...even with surround music etc?

Your center is Raal though..right?
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post #29 of 38 Old 03-04-2013, 04:27 PM
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It appears to be a neocd3 ribbon. Im sure the raal 70-20 would be a better choice but im not sure if its cost effective as surrounds. The cd3 is a better choice imo, it cost about the same as the hiquphon but may be better match in his system.
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post #30 of 38 Old 03-04-2013, 04:31 PM
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I will let you know when my center channel comes should be pretty soon , I have a few SACD waiting . Im breaking in the surrounds with 2 ch till then

I have been through a ton of speakers and Im happy with my salks and selahs both builders are top notch

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