Better Value then the Klipsch RF-7 II package ideas? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 209 Old 08-02-2013, 07:54 PM
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post #182 of 209 Old 08-02-2013, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Vital View Post

Sorry to burst your little bubble buddy but Martin Logan is not high end audio. They are mid level just like Klipsch. You keep trying to put Klipsch in this low end category with Polk and it just shows your ignorance and makes you look stupid. The best Martin Logan has is the CLX for 25k a pair. Klipsch has the Palladium P-39F for 20k a pair. Both companies offer lot's of mid level and lower line products as well. Nothing about your Martin Logans even scratches the surface of high end audio.

There are sound qualities that Martin Logan has that can't be beat by even the most expensive box speakers. Despite some drawbacks, one may consider that high end no?

And I don't see Klipsch on the Magnolia store website or at our stores in SoCal that carry B&W/ML, they sit right next to Polk and Infinity in the room next door. Just my observation
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post #183 of 209 Old 08-02-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

But imo it would be hard to go from a dynamic speaker to a more laid back speaker

I mentioned this many posts ago including the importance of the type of music one listens to and the volume level, amp, room etc

But if you find your self insulting people or brands people own its time to step away i think biggrin.gif[/quote]

It's hard not to insult a Klipsch owner apparently as opinions are considered insults and facts are not eccepted
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post #184 of 209 Old 08-02-2013, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

And I don't see Klipsch on the Magnolia store website or at our stores in SoCal that carry B&W/ML, they sit right next to Polk and Infinity in the room next door. Just my observation
Brands go in and out of Magnolia. The Klipsch Reference line used to be; now Energy are. And you are the only person I have come across to define high-end as being carried by Magnolia. Hilarious!

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post #185 of 209 Old 08-02-2013, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

It's hard not to insult a Klipsch owner apparently as opinion are not eccepted and facts are considered insults

I didn't accept your opinion about a speaker that you've never heard, or your fact that ML defines recommended amplifier power as a level that will no cause any distortion, or your opinion that ML are high-end, that Klipschj are low-end, your opinion (or is it fact) that Magnolia defines what is high-end.

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post #186 of 209 Old 08-02-2013, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

H

?

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post #187 of 209 Old 08-02-2013, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

There are sound qualities that Martin Logan has that can't be beat by even the most expensive box speakers. Despite some drawbacks, one may consider that high end no?
Oh yeah? What sound qualities do the Martin Logans have that beat the most expensive speakers? A good friend of mine owns a pair of Focal Nova Utopia's that were 45k a pair. Nothing Martin Logan makes even comes close in any area to the sound I hear out of those Focal's. That is true high end audio. I don't care how many articles you read by Martin Logan advertising reps claiming they are the best.
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And I don't see Klipsch on the Magnolia store website or at our stores in SoCal that carry B&W/ML, they sit right next to Polk and Infinity in the room next door. Just my observation
The specialty store near me doesn't carry Martin Logan. They carry B&W, Dynaudio and another brand. The fact that the store doesnt choose to carry a certain brand has nothing to do with the quality of that brand. Any place that you have seen Polk and Infinity next to Klipsch, I can guarantee you it's the lower level Klipsch line, just like the lower level Martin Logan line at Best Buy and Magnolia sitting next to Energy, Polk, Definitive Technology and Boston Acoustics. Your theory on what makes a speaker high end is laughable.
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post #188 of 209 Old 08-02-2013, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Vital View Post

Oh yeah? What sound qualities do the Martin Logans have that beat the most expensive speakers?

In my opinion on high end, it's how accurately a speaker can recreate the source signal as it was meant to be heard.

Due to the design of the electrostat, it does certain things equal or better than 40k+ speakers as you mentioned like transparency, mid range vocals and reduced coloration from box resonance. These are benfits by design. Ofcourse, they aren't known to be "rock speakers" but more for critical listening and hence the high end image they receive.

GIZMOD"A speaker's ultimate goal is "to sound like reality"—the elusive dragon that every audiophile chases—so on a broad, not-very-useful level, how close it comes to matching that reality is the difference between good and bad, expensive and cheap speakers"
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post #189 of 209 Old 08-03-2013, 06:23 AM
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So you have changed your opinion on the definition of high-end; but it still includes all ML speakers of course. rolleyes.gif

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post #190 of 209 Old 08-03-2013, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

So you have changed your opinion on the definition of high-end; but it still includes all ML speakers of course. rolleyes.gif
His definition of high-end, it's how accurately a speaker can recreate the source signal as it was meant to be heard, is one of the few statements he's made that I agree with. Results are what matters, and results are not dictated by or even related to price. The best sound you can possibly get can be had with a four figure price tag. Once you hit five, or more, figures, it's not because it's high end. It's just high priced, and not justifiably so.

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post #191 of 209 Old 08-03-2013, 07:16 AM
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His current definition. smile.gif

And I agree with you about the five figures.

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post #192 of 209 Old 08-03-2013, 08:46 AM
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In my opinion on high end, it's how accurately a speaker can recreate the source signal as it was meant to be heard.
OK, I will agree with that and IMO Martin Logan's fall short esp in the mid-bass region and low end region. Not to mention they distort and break up when pushed to real play back levels that would simulate a live performance or even a reference level playback of a movie. I have heard Martin Logan's break up during music play back and it's a nasty, dirty sound! My neighbor owns a pair of ML's and tomorrow when he get's back from his beach house I'm going over to see what model they are. One thing I can tell you 100% is that my low end "according to you" horn system sounds way better than his high-end "according to you" Martin Logan system and this is a mutual consensus among 3-4 households in our cul-d-sac. Proof that Klipsch can be as high-end or more so than Martin Logan when dialed in properly. You came into this thread with a condescending attitude bashing a product you knew nothing about other than their bottom of the rung Best Buy offerings. This is not a Klipsch vs Martin Logan thread, both have their strong and weak points and both style of speaker can be dialed in to produce amazing results contrary to your opinion about Klipsch.

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they aren't known to be "rock speakers" but more for critical listening and hence the high end image they receive.
I have listened to Martin Logan Summits and they make everything sound pleasant, but in an opaque and homogeneous way. There is no way anyone could work on them I.E. no one will ever be using them for critical listening which is done in a professional setting like a studio of some sort. In those places what you will find are Focals, Dynaudio's, B&W's and even Klipsch but never Martin Logans. Exactly what kind of critical listening do you fantasize yourself as doing while sitting in your living room playing back your favorite cd? rolleyes.gif You sir have drank not a glass but a whole pitcher of the Kool-Aid!
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post #193 of 209 Old 08-03-2013, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Vital View Post

OK, I will agree with that and IMO Martin Logan's fall short esp in the mid-bass region and low end region. Not to mention they distort and break up when pushed to real play back levels that would simulate a live performance or even a reference level playback of a movie. I have heard Martin Logan's break up during music play back and it's a nasty, dirty sound! My neighbor owns a pair of ML's and tomorrow when he get's back from his beach house I'm going over to see what model they are. One thing I can tell you 100% is that my low end "according to you" horn system sounds way better than his high-end "according to you" Martin Logan system and this is a mutual consensus among 3-4 households in our cul-d-sac. Proof that Klipsch can be as high-end or more so than Martin Logan when dialed in properly. You came into this thread with a condescending attitude bashing a product you knew nothing about other than their bottom of the rung Best Buy offerings. This is not a Klipsch vs Martin Logan thread, both have their strong and weak points and both style of speaker can be dialed in to produce amazing results contrary to your opinion about Klipsch.
I have listened to Martin Logan Summits and they make everything sound pleasant, but in an opaque and homogeneous way. There is no way anyone could work on them I.E. no one will ever be using them for critical listening which is done in a professional setting like a studio of some sort. In those places what you will find are Focals, Dynaudio's, B&W's and even Klipsch but never Martin Logans. Exactly what kind of critical listening do you fantasize yourself as doing while sitting in your living room playing back your favorite cd? rolleyes.gif You sir have drank not a glass but a whole pitcher of the Kool-Aid!

Really good point you never see that style speaker in a studio. If they were as he says they would be in all of them (studio).

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post #194 of 209 Old 08-03-2013, 12:56 PM
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You guys are killing me, high end is most certainly not based on price. It is not based on cost of parts or anything of price, Not for performance anyways, maybe in exotic materials, looks, etc... I have listened to many different setups in many different showrooms and which setup I thought was the best was my goal. However, I set out to find the same performance for much less and it took years of tweaking and now I know what to do. That is just me but one man's high end is another's low end. The best part of my system is it is hidden(I like the look of my speakers though) because it removes any and all bias in what people will hear next. I have had many friends over who own very expensive speakers and gear and they are always amazed on how my room sounds. What I find even funnier is that once I wow them and make them all giddy like a 14 year old boy meeting a girl for the first time I tell them how much it cost me to build them and all of a sudden they are not impressed anymore because their is no name attached. I love the sound of many different types of speakers as they all have a certain quality to them including ML and maggies. It is easy to get loud. It is easy to sound good. It is very difficult to sound good very loud. To me ML and maggies sound excellent but not at very loud levels and I would never buy $25K speakers just so they could play loud enough if I could do it much cheaper. They would be worth it if it was the only way to do it.

BTW, my favorite speakers I have ever demoed were these: $50K each of awesomeness! I got as close as I could for $1500 each for music and beat it for HT!

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post #195 of 209 Old 08-11-2013, 02:11 PM
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Some thoughts on Kpisch RF7ii with personal experience

It was interesting reading this thread from the beginning and seeing how the conversation turned into what is "hi-end" discussion. Certainly our culture is such that it tends to dictate that anything more expensive must be better. It is true to some extent. However, when we talk about speakers it is important to define hi-end. Is it the workmanship of the woodwork and the fit and finish or is it the performance? Sure there are products like the Focal Grand Utopia at 150K that do boast the best of both of these worlds. In most case, however, when talking about $3-20K speakers, I find that fit and finish correlate better with price than performance. You have to ask yourself which one you want or need. most of us would want both, but we do not have the coin needed to do get to the above-mentioned Focal Grand Utopia level.

Here comes Klpisch RF7ii. The fit and finish I have to say are at best mediocre or worse. Quality of individual parts like woofers: impressive. Implementation: mediocre to poor. Out of the box sound: mediocore to poor. However, I have to say that I have ended up with these speakers after many years of being an audio enthusiasts and a hobbyist. Why? With small tweaks and additions, I have transformed my Klipsch speakers into what I think are giant killers. I regularly visit the Magnolia in my neighborhood, and not because I am interested in what they have. The main reason I am there is to have listening sessions to their B&W 802D and Sonus Faber speakers to appreciate on how much better these Klpisch are in my system. I know these are not apples to apples, but still, we are talking about 16K pair of speakers driven by Mcintosh sources and amps costing at least another 20K.

Now back to what the good and bad is in Klipsch. Please observe original klpisch's frequency response curve. It does not look good, especially in high frequencies. This is because the horn driver normally is good to about 7-9KHz levels (my measurements with crossovers out, not shown). The way Klipsch was able change this is within the crossover circuit. Hence everything sounds unnatural and harsh in high frequencies. Why has Klipsch done this? I think cost (compare this to Palladium series where cost is up and extra tweeter is added).


Now my modifications are relatively simple: rip out the crossover circuit and replace it with an active analog crossover, add Fostex super-tweeters to handle the region above 8Khz and make the overall system tri-amplified.
Finally I have painted the horns to increase the visual appeal.

Of course, these mods add more money to the Klpisch's modest $3200 price tag. Specifically, Fostex tweeters alone are $1000 (these beasts are amazing though), and the extra cost of the amplifiers (from me it was 4K with W4S ST500 and consonance tube monoblocks). that brings the total extra cost to around $8300. This may sound a lot, but on the other hand, now I can have an ICE amp driving the woofers with >2000 damping factor, while using tube amps to drive mids and highs to get the sweet tube sound. If you want another 5-10% improvement, you can replace the compression drivers too, which I have done (Klpisch drivers are great in their own right though). In the end, my Klipsch speakers sound buttery, which many would say is an oxymoron when talking about Klipsch. The most important differences compared to say B&W802Ds are the wider soundstage, increased detail and dynamics. These guys can now play at 100db levels with ease, and at no time you feel the top octaves are hot or fatiguing. Now I think I do have a hi-end performing speakers, albeit the aesthetics are sub par to B&W and many others. Please check out some measurements after the mods.

Room response at listener position-about 4 meters.





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Klipsch RF-7 ii (w/ Radian 475PB comp driver) + Fostex T900A
Mcintoch MC275 LE 50th anniversary (mids)
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post #196 of 209 Old 08-11-2013, 03:03 PM
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I don't own the newer Klipsch RF-7IIs, but am tremendously happy with my original RF-7 Home Theater and compared it to various "high dollar" home theater setups pretty much on a weekly basis for 3 years...That being said, congratulations gago1101 on a nice picture and getting your speakers sounding/looking like you want.
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post #197 of 209 Old 08-11-2013, 03:13 PM
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I hope you understand that these are typos rather than not knowing how to spell. You may find more than just Klipsch misspelled. I think it's my line of work that does this to me smile.gif

2-Channel
Klipsch RF-7 ii (w/ Radian 475PB comp driver) + Fostex T900A
Mcintoch MC275 LE 50th anniversary (mids)
Consonance Cyber 800SE monoblocks (highs)
Wyred4SOund ST500 stereo amp (lows)
Oppo BDP-105
Stanton ST.150 Turntable
Benhringer XC3400 X-over
Panasonic TX-P50GT50 Display with Automatic...

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post #198 of 209 Old 08-11-2013, 03:34 PM
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If i bought 3k speakers that sounded poor they would be sent right back end of story. Hard to imagine someone keeping them if they sounded poor. eek.gif.

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post #199 of 209 Old 08-11-2013, 03:42 PM
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That was my first thought, but people in my generation bought RF-7s and thought they sounded excellent and then sent them off for Crossover "upgrades" so they could sound even better and I found that confusing as well. To each their own but if one has the expertise I can see why they would want to tinker...
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post #200 of 209 Old 08-11-2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Reference_head View Post

If i bought 3k speakers that sounded poor they would be sent right back end of story. Hard to imagine someone keeping them if they sounded poor. eek.gif.

"Sounding poor" statement is all relative. This was comparing to may old B&W Nautilus 800 speakers. Compared to your average Monitor Audio, Golden Ear, Martin Logans, the Klipsch RF7ii sound pretty good.

2-Channel
Klipsch RF-7 ii (w/ Radian 475PB comp driver) + Fostex T900A
Mcintoch MC275 LE 50th anniversary (mids)
Consonance Cyber 800SE monoblocks (highs)
Wyred4SOund ST500 stereo amp (lows)
Oppo BDP-105
Stanton ST.150 Turntable
Benhringer XC3400 X-over
Panasonic TX-P50GT50 Display with Automatic...

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post #201 of 209 Old 08-11-2013, 05:19 PM
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That makes more sense biggrin.gif

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post #202 of 209 Old 08-12-2013, 09:47 PM
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I apologize for my ignorance, but i have a question about speaker impedance and amplifiers/receivers:
In this thread it was mentioned that, under certain conditions, speakers that claim to be 8 ohms can dip much lower to 2.x ohms, etc...
If I have a Yamaha RX-V775 receiver that calls for 8 ohm speakers, should I be concerned with damaging the receiver by connecting such speakers to it?
The Yamaha receiver can be set for 6 ohm speakers as well. Should I choose that setting instead?
Or should I just simply trust speaker specs that say "8 ohm compatible" and connect them to my 8 ohm-compatible receiver?

Although I'm no audiophile, my background is in electronics and I know that 2 ohms is closer to a short circuit than 8 ohms...hence my concern.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
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post #203 of 209 Old 08-12-2013, 09:49 PM
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Short answer, don't worry. Unless you run it turned WAY UP it will never be a concern.
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post #204 of 209 Old 08-12-2013, 10:04 PM
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Short answer, don't worry. Unless you run it turned WAY UP it will never be a concern.

Thank you.
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post #205 of 209 Old 08-13-2013, 05:57 AM
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You won't break anything, but the combo might not sound as good as it should even at lower levels. I can't really explain it, since at low levels any AVR should be able to supply the extra current demand of low impedance dips, but I have heard demanding speakers sound flat at low levels on a given AVR and come to dynamic life using another AVR better suited to low impedance. OTOH, my own speakers are easy to drive and sound exactly the same to me whatever AVR or external amp I use.

The 6-ohm settings protects the AVR from over-heating by reducing the rail voltage (thus decreasing performance). Don't use it unless you have to.

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post #206 of 209 Old 08-13-2013, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd1234 View Post

I apologize for my ignorance, but i have a question about speaker impedance and amplifiers/receivers:

...Although I'm no audiophile, my background is in electronics and I know that 2 ohms is closer to a short circuit than 8 ohms...hence my concern.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.

I own RF-7s and your background is signaling what psgcdn is telling you...It may not damage your speakers (not saying that it won't if inadvertently the volume is turned up) but you won't get the best use out of them.
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post #207 of 209 Old 08-17-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

I own RF-7s and your background is signaling what psgcdn is telling you...It may not damage your speakers (not saying that it won't if inadvertently the volume is turned up) but you won't get the best use out of them.

Thank you both for he additional input. I just ordered RF-7II's so I'll connect them to my RX-V775 AVR and hear how that sounds. I was concerned with damaging either the AVR or the speakers, but I gather from what you said that should not be the case.
I can live with having to add an amp. If I do add an amp, any suggestions? If that is too broad of a question don't worry, I'll look into it when the time comes.
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post #208 of 209 Old 08-17-2013, 08:15 PM
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I like the bang-for-the-buck of pro amps, but the gain structure is sometimes a problem. People seem to like Emotiva, but I am unaware of bench tests (which is surprising!) and don't know if they are rated for low impedance. Many pro amps are rated down to 2 ohms!

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post #209 of 209 Old 08-18-2013, 07:22 PM
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Thank you again.
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