Better Value then the Klipsch RF-7 II package ideas? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 209 Old 01-11-2013, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I have seen many people talk about how great this package is, and I agree its amazing and sounds great. But there are alot of people that say its very expensive which it is and that there are other speakers that sound as good if not better for alot less money. So any idea please? Would love to hear any thoughts on this. And for those who are not in the know, here is the link to the acutal set up from Klipsch. http://www.klipsch.com/rf-7-ii-home-theater-system Also I am told there you can find much cheaper subs on line, that I get but the mains and center and surronds are more what I am wondering what people will come up with. But please feel free to add in the subs as well. Looking forward to the reply's
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post #2 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 01:37 AM
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I took the plunge last month and bought the RF-7 II HT System. I also have the RF-62 II and the difference is huge for me. RF-7 II is much smoother, more dynamic and goes lower.

For HT, the 3 front speakers are the most important. With limited budget, get the best 2 mains that you can afford and then save up for the center. Then repeat this for the surrounds. Don't spend your budget at one shot on a complete but second best setup because you know you won't be entirely happy and wanna upgrade soon.

For music, a pair of RF-7 II is all you need. You don't really need a sub, unless you're a bass head smile.gif

If you call around or look for 'open box', you can get a pair of RF-7 II for a little over $2k. Then save up for the RC-64 II, and so forth.

For sub, you can get a better performer for the same money from one of the online manufacturers such as SVS and Hsu Research.
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post #3 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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What you told me was great. But that is just guying the actual Klispsch stuff. I am courious to all the people who claim they can get as good a sound if not "better" for alot less. They post that all the time so I am interested in the other options out there, if they are out there.
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post #4 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 09:27 AM
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That is some serious money, and In my mind those are not the kind of seriously good-sounding speakers that would justify that price. I would say that when you compare it to the competition, its price is roughly twice what it is worth.

The KEF Q900 is a speaker that will blow away the Klipsch speakers in every respect; better cleaner bass, and more of it, MUCH better midrange sound quality, and WAY better tweeters.

They go down below 30 Hz, so it is very questionable whether a subwoofer is even needed with them.

They run about $1700 per pair. Add the Q600C for $650 and a pair of Q300s for another $650, and you will have a system that will be in a category way higher than the Klipsch system in every way, and for only a bit over $3000.

For a subwoofer, there is nothing that can touch the NHT and Rhythmic subwoofers; several good choices there.

But I think you will pass on a subwoofer when you hear the thunderous super-low bass of the Q900.

In the Stereophile article on the Q900, the reviewer tried them with and without and decided that there was no need for one.
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post #5 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 10:18 AM
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KEF will likely have better off-axis performance, but they will be well short of the Klipsch's dynamic range. The KEF are no doubt good speakers, but they will be compressing peaks that the Klipsch will tackle easily, and the Klipsch would be breezing by at volume levels that would choke the KEF speakers.
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post #6 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 10:25 AM
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I find your comments to be completely unfounded and just plain wrong.

The KEF Q900 can blow the windows out of any house smaller than Westminster Cathedral.
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

KEF will likely have better off-axis performance, but they will be well short of the Klipsch's dynamic range. The KEF are no doubt good speakers, but they will be compressing peaks that the Klipsch will tackle easily, and the Klipsch would be breezing by at volume levels that would choke the KEF speakers.
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post #7 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 10:48 AM
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Wasn't there a thread on Audioholics showning the KEF Q900 midrange breaking up due to cheap crossover.

The Klipsch will blow the KEF away with sheer dynamics, whether the sound signitures is better is up to the end user to decide.

Unlike what Commsysman thinks one size doesn't fit all. KEF might be good speakers but they are no where close to being the final absolute word in there price range. I don't care what Stereophile says, they are just one opinion among MANY.
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post #8 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 10:55 AM
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"Look at the green trace, the woofer(s) response. Major break-ups between 5500Hz-9500Hz. It even shows up in the red trace, which is what Stereophile usually only posts. By looking at the medium sized wrinkles on the red graph, it's hard to judge the true performance, unless we can see the individual driver's roll-offs, or distortion graphs (which Stereophile doesn't publish for some reason). So yes, the overall SPL looks more, or less acceptable. BUT! If the region between 5500Hz and 9500Hz is excited by music, the distortion would literally be through the roof! And right smack in the midrange, no less. "

Its a comprismed design, still can sound good but its far from perfect.
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post #9 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I find your comments to be completely unfounded and just plain wrong.

The KEF Q900 can blow the windows out of any house smaller than Westminster Cathedral.

Lol so you think think KEF's coaxial drivers can keep up with some titanium compression drivers in a 8" horn? KEF Q900 sensitivity: 91dB/2.83V/m. Klipsch RF7 II sensitivity: 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m. I'm not trying to knock the KEF speakers, but these speakers have their different strengths. The Q900 are not going to get you to THX Reference level, but the Klipsch could with no problem.
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post #10 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 12:01 PM
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The sensitivity figure does not tell you ANYTHING about the maximum SPL that the speakers can produce; it only allows you to calculate the amplifier power required for a given SPL.

KEF rates them for a maximum output of 114 db SPL, which is definitely window-shattering level, not to mention EARDRUM-shattering.

IF the Klipsch will go higher than that, it is irrelevant to anyone operating them in a home. Since Klipsch does not even give a maximum SPL for that speaker, it's hard to know if it will even equal the Q900, let alone beat it. I doubt it.

Your opinion is mere speculation based on 0 actual knowledge.


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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol so you think think KEF's coaxial drivers can keep up with some titanium compression drivers in a 8" horn? KEF Q900 sensitivity: 91dB/2.83V/m. Klipsch RF7 II sensitivity: 101dB @ 2.83V / 1m. I'm not trying to knock the KEF speakers, but these speakers have their different strengths. The Q900 are not going to get you to THX Reference level, but the Klipsch could with no problem.
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post #11 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The KEF Q900 is a speaker that will blow away the Klipsch speakers in every respect; better cleaner bass, and more of it, MUCH better midrange sound quality, and WAY better tweeters..

Just mere speculation on your part based on 0 actual knowledge.
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Your opinion is mere speculation based on 0 actual knowledge.

And so isn't yours. I've never seen you back you opinions up with anything other than Stereophile says so.

Don't you see a common trend happening on this forum? Its kind of sad when just about everyone says takes what Commsysman says with a HUGE grain of salt.
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post #12 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The sensitivity figure does not tell you ANYTHING about the maximum SPL that the speakers can produce; it only allows you to calculate the amplifier power required for a given SPL.

KEF rates them for a maximum output of 114 db SPL, which is definitely window-shattering level, not to mention EARDRUM-shattering.

IF the Klipsch will go higher than that, it is irrelevant to anyone operating them in a home. Since Klipsch does not even give a maximum SPL for that speaker, it's hard to know if it will even equal the Q900, let alone beat it. I doubt it.

Your opinion is mere speculation based on 0 actual knowledge.

Wow! The pot calling the kettle black yet again.

First- you've never hear the Klipsch RF-7IIs. You've probably never hear the Kefs either.

Second- as you've been informed there is NO WAY, NO HOW that the small tweeter in the Kef is going to even attempt to keep up with the much larger, horn loaded compression driver of the Klipsch. Physics is physics.

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post #13 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 12:51 PM
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Lol, I'll admit to not being a speakers expert, but I do know that compression drivers are incredibly efficient with a driver motor that will dwarf that of the KEF. Also KEF claims that the Q900 can hit 114 dB, but under what conditions? Anechoic? In-room? At what what level of distortion? Let's do some math: 91 dB sensitive speaker amplified by 200 watts (KEF maximum recommended amplification) = 114.8 dB, anechoic at 1 m, so KEF's claim checks out on paper. Now for Klipsch: 101 dB sensitive speaker amplified by 250 watts (Klipsch's maximum recommended amplification) = 125.8 dB anechoic at 1 m. So what is the KEF going to sound like at 114 dB compared to the Klipsch? Pretty bad I will bet. Of course, no one normally listens to anything at those SPLs, but no one is going to listen their large tower speakers at 1 meter either.
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post #14 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, I'll admit to not being a speakers expert, but I do know that compression drivers are incredibly efficient with a driver motor that will dwarf that of the KEF. Also KEF claims that the Q900 can hit 114 dB, but under what conditions? Anechoic? In-room? At what what level of distortion? Let's do some math: 91 dB sensitive speaker amplified by 200 watts (KEF maximum recommended amplification) = 114.8 dB, anechoic at 1 m, so KEF's claim checks out on paper. Now for Klipsch: 101 dB sensitive speaker amplified by 250 watts (Klipsch's maximum recommended amplification) = 125.8 dB anechoic at 1 m. So what is the KEF going to sound like at 114 dB compared to the Klipsch? Pretty bad I will bet. Of course, no one normally listens to anything at those SPLs, but no one is going to listen their large tower speakers at 1 meter either.
You're assuming that the Klipsch sensitivity figures are accurate. They aren't. Ask them for a measured SPL chart. It won't happen. mad.gif

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post #15 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You're assuming that the Klipsch sensitivity figures are accurate. They aren't. Ask them for a measured SPL chart. It won't happen. mad.gif

What are the sensitivity figures? Have you measured them?
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post #16 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 02:14 PM
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I have seen measurements of the Reference bookshelf speakers did not match Klipschs claims but from what I have read their heritage lines specs are accurate. Anyway the point stands that the Klipsch will have a much greater dynamic range than the KEF speakers, I think you will agree.
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post #17 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 02:17 PM
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What are the sensitivity figures? Have you measured them?
I haven't measured them, but a safe bet would be 90 to 92dB. With the frequency response that Klipsch claims that's as good as you can get. Anything higher would mean they're using magic drivers, and there aren't any.

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post #18 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I haven't measured them, but a safe bet would be 90 to 92dB. With the frequency response that Klipsch claims that's as good as you can get. Anything higher would mean they're using magic drivers, and there aren't any.

Hey Bill, how do you figure this? That is a roughly 10 dB delta between Klipsch's claimed spec, and if so, that would be a big deal.
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post #19 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 05:49 PM
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My Klipsch THX speakers were about 92 dBs sensitive and not their 97 dBs spec.
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post #20 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 06:39 PM
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I have seen many people talk about how great this package is, and I agree its amazing and sounds great. But there are alot of people that say its very expensive which it is and that there are other speakers that sound as good if not better for alot less money. So any idea please? Would love to hear any thoughts on this. And for those who are not in the know, here is the link to the acutal set up from Klipsch. http://www.klipsch.com/rf-7-ii-home-theater-system Also I am told there you can find much cheaper subs on line, that I get but the mains and center and surronds are more what I am wondering what people will come up with. But please feel free to add in the subs as well. Looking forward to the reply's

From what I have been hearing This hold's it's own with the Klipsch system...........

http://www.aperionaudio.com/speakers/verus-family/verus-grand-tower-xd
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post #21 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 08:25 PM
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According to the measurements by a German audio magazine below, RF-7 II could go up to 96.3 db sensitivity.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412510/klipsch-rf7-ii-measurements
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post #22 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I am learning so much from this tread. I am glad I started it. So please continue. But I have yet to hear from anybody that things they have found anything cheaper that performs just as well. Those few that said so in other thread where they talking out of there ying yang? Or are there really other options? As far as those versus Grands. 4395 a speaker, WOW. Now I just cant see getting that much of a sound improvent for that kind of money. Now maybe its because I am not super rich, or even if I was I just would not drop that kind of dough cause I dont think my ears could tell the difference between the kilpschs and the versus. I can say its nice with the wood and its hand made, but are you really paying for the name, or the wood or the sound? And like I said I have yet to hear any options that are cheaper, we just got the one I talked about that is more expensive but not cheaper.
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post #23 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalguy View Post

I am learning so much from this tread. I am glad I started it. So please continue. But I have yet to hear from anybody that things they have found anything cheaper that performs just as well. Those few that said so in other thread where they talking out of there ying yang? Or are there really other options? As far as those versus Grands. 4395 a speaker, WOW. Now I just cant see getting that much of a sound improvent for that kind of money. Now maybe its because I am not super rich, or even if I was I just would not drop that kind of dough cause I dont think my ears could tell the difference between the kilpschs and the versus. I can say its nice with the wood and its hand made, but are you really paying for the name, or the wood or the sound? And like I said I have yet to hear any options that are cheaper, we just got the one I talked about that is more expensive but not cheaper.

That's 4395 for the whole set...........You can actually get it in the 3k range if you go with another sub
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post #24 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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That's 4395 for the whole set...........You can actually get it in the 3k range if you go with another sub
Oh ok. Thank you. I saw it saying 4395 each on the page so i thought it was just for the tower.
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post #25 of 209 Old 01-12-2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Hey Bill, how do you figure this?
Knowing what speakers are capable of, and what they're not, is what I do for a living.
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That is a roughly 10 dB delta between Klipsch's claimed spec, and if so, that would be a big deal.
It is a big deal. If Paul Klipsch were alive today he'd put an end to that nonsense faster that he could utter his favorite expletive, one which quite succinctly and accurately describes the notion that any dual driver direct radiating speaker could achieve +/-3dB from 30Hz with 101dB sensitivity.
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According to the measurements by a German audio magazine below, RF-7 II could go up to 96.3 db sensitivity.
No. The chart shows 92dB/2v. The article states that with 2.83v it would reach 96.3dB, which is not the case. It would reach 95dB. But that's not 1 watt. You see, another problem with the Klipsch specs is that they call the speaker '8 ohm compatible'. The measured minimum impedance is 3.7 ohms. That makes it at best a 6 ohm speaker. And with that poor Paul takes another turn or two in his grave. frown.gif

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post #26 of 209 Old 01-13-2013, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If Paul Klipsch were alive today he'd put an end to that nonsense faster that he could utter his favorite expletive, one which quite succinctly and accurately describes the notion that any dual driver direct radiating speaker could achieve +/-3dB from 30Hz with 101dB sensitivity.
I suppose that is why the Heritage line is supposedly more accurately spec'd than the Reference, they were produced during his lifetime. Anyway, why would a dual driver direct radiating speaker not be able to achieve +/-3dB from 30Hz with 101dB sensitivity? I'm not trying to dispute your claim, I would just like to know why that doesn't work.
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post #27 of 209 Old 01-13-2013, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

why would a dual driver direct radiating speaker not be able to achieve +/-3dB from 30Hz with 101dB sensitivity?
There is a finite limit to how much sensitivity a driver is capable of. That's approximately 119dB, which some pro-sound high frequency compression drivers can achieve. As the frequency of the driver passband is lowered so is the sensitivity that can be realized. Some pro-sound woofers have 103dB sensitivity, but they only have 80Hz or so low frequency capability. With a 30Hz bandwidth the best one can expect is about 93dB sensitivity, and that would be from a very high end 18 inch pro-sound driver. With consumer grade 10 inch woofers with 30Hz capability sensitivity would drop to 89dB or less. When two drivers are used sensitivity per watt goes up by 3dB. In short, you can have 101dB sensitivity from a pair of consumer grade tens, or you can have -3dB at 30Hz from a pair of tens. You can't have both. And, according to the charts, the Klipsch don't have either, since they show the RF7ii -3dB point to be at 38Hz; at 30Hz they're -10dB. That would explain why no charts are to be found on the Klipsch site.

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post #28 of 209 Old 01-13-2013, 08:48 AM
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I see. Thanks for the explanation! I take it Klipsch used the tweeter alone somehow to cook up that spec?
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post #29 of 209 Old 01-13-2013, 08:34 PM
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I am currently a Klipsch owner and have experience with the R7's. I was running a high end Pioneer receiver but just switched to a designated amp and pre-amp. I have the Icon series front and center which sound really nice but have already upgraded my surrounds to the Klipsch RS 52's. So all sounds fantastic but of course its never good enough, is it ? I went to the shop I deal with and 4 of us (for over an hour and a half) sat and demo'd 2 speakers that I am considering. The polk audio rti a9 and the klipsch rf 7ii (to replace my fronts). We used 2 monoblock 400 watt parasound amps running each speaker. (that amp is sick !!) We put the speakers in the same place, played different music, and switched speakers back and forth. At first i really loved the sound and price of the polks. Nice clear clean sound and the speakers looked great. This is a nice choice for speaker. ....but everyone agreed the klipsch were awesome. The sound is incredible. More of a full sound. The winner. But the price is much higher. Here was a selling factor for me. The sensitivity level is like 101db compared to the polk which is like 91db. What did this mean in the real world? It means the polks needed alot more power to get the same sound output as the klipsch. Example...for our test we kept the volume at the same exact level for each speaker test. Switching the wires from the polks to the klipsch was a HUGE difference. We almost had to turn the volume down when switching to the klipsch. Essentially you can run these speakers with a less powerful amp (if you had to) and still get great loud sound. On a side note, no matter what people say, I would never run a system without a designated subwoofer. It doesn't need to be a monster sub. Just needs to be enough to get you those low frequencies that floor standing speakers just can't get. Especially when watching movies. Hope this helps
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post #30 of 209 Old 01-14-2013, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I see. Thanks for the explanation! I take it Klipsch used the tweeter alone somehow to cook up that spec?
Since the measured response shows the tweeter with a peak at 96dB at 2.0v, which would be 99dB at 2.83v, it would seem the 101dB figure is a complete fabrication by their marketing department.

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