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post #31 of 60 Old 05-23-2013, 06:36 AM
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I have those speakers. They need juice!! What you need to do is buy an amp not an avr. If you already have an avr use that to push the highs and mids and buy an amp to push the subs. Bi amp them.
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post #32 of 60 Old 05-23-2013, 10:31 AM
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I have those speakers. They need juice!! What you need to do is buy an amp not an avr. If you already have an avr use that to push the highs and mids and buy an amp to push the subs. Bi amp them.

Too bad bi-amping does nothing with the way the speaker's crossover is designed.

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post #33 of 60 Old 05-23-2013, 11:05 AM
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I disagree with you. Even though the rtia9's have a passive crossover, running two different amps can give you an unique sound. Like I said before, I can get the sweet sound of tubes fron my tweeters and mids and I can get the effeciency and punch of a D class amp. So, yes it does sonething.
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post #34 of 60 Old 05-23-2013, 02:35 PM
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And $500 per foot speaker cable will help sweeten the sound too. ;-)

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post #35 of 60 Old 05-23-2013, 02:50 PM
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I'm not going to start a discussion about wires or bi amping. I know both can make a difference depending on the situation.
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post #36 of 60 Old 05-23-2013, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sonido View Post

I'm not going to start a discussion about wires or bi amping. I know both can make a difference depending on the situation.
Wires make no difference, nor does bi-wiring. Bi-amping does make a difference when done correctly, which is to use an electronic crossover to split the signal into low and high frequency bandwidths, separately amplifying each, while eliminating the passive crossover in the speaker. Otherwise any perceived difference can be chalked up to placebo effect.

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post #37 of 60 Old 05-23-2013, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Wires make no difference, nor does bi-wiring. Bi-amping does make a difference when done correctly, which is to use an electronic crossover to split the signal into low and high frequency bandwidths, separately amplifying each, while eliminating the passive crossover in the speaker. Otherwise any perceived difference can be chalked up to placebo effect.

so your saying using the avr power to drive the tweeter/mid and a seperate power amp to drive the woofers does nothing?
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post #38 of 60 Old 05-23-2013, 10:57 PM
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so your saying using the avr power to drive the tweeter/mid and a seperate power amp to drive the woofers does nothing?

It depends. If the woofer xover is connected directly to one terminal, and the mid/tweet connected to the other, then you can directly drive the woofers with a more powerful amp. What benefit is there to using say a 250 watt amp on the woofers and a separate amp on the tm, vs just using the 250 watt amp for the entire speaker? I cant think of any...
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post #39 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

so your saying using the avr power to drive the tweeter/mid and a seperate power amp to drive the woofers does nothing?
If there is an electronic crossover that sends the lows to the woofer amp and the mids/highs to the AVR power amp and there are no passive crossover components in the speaker then it's true bi-amping and it does work. If not, you're wasting an amp and wire.
For an example of true bi-amping you need not look any further than an x.1 AVR and powered sub. The electronic crossover in the AVR sends everything above the crossover frequency to the amps in the AVR for the mains and surrounds, and everything below the crossover frequency via the LFE output to the sub amp.
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If the woofer xover is connected directly to one terminal, and the mid/tweet connected to the other, then you can directly drive the woofers with a more powerful amp.
You may do so, but it won't work much better, if at all, because you're still sending the low frequencies to the amps in the AVR. The benefits of bi-amping are only realized when each amp only works with those frequencies being reproduced by the speakers it's driving.

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post #40 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If there is an electronic crossover that sends the lows to the woofer amp and the mids/highs to the AVR power amp and there are no passive crossover components in the speaker then it's true bi-amping and it does work. If not, you're wasting an amp and wire.
For an example of true bi-amping you need not look any further than an x.1 AVR and powered sub. The electronic crossover in the AVR sends everything above the crossover frequency to the amps in the AVR for the mains and surrounds, and everything below the crossover frequency via the LFE output to the sub amp.
You may do so, but it won't work much better, if at all, because you're still sending the low frequencies to the amps in the AVR. The benefits of bi-amping are only realized when each amp only works with those frequencies being reproduced by the speakers it's driving.

my point is for supplying the A9 more power...bi amping does not concern me. On a A9 if you supplied the top half with th AVR's 70watts or whatever, then powered the bottom half with lets say a crown xls1000 @ 215watts a channel, your telling me there wont be any difference in terms of output from simply supplying 70watts to the speaker opposed to 285?
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post #41 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 07:31 AM
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It depends. If the woofer xover is connected directly to one terminal, and the mid/tweet connected to the other, then you can directly drive the woofers with a more powerful amp. What benefit is there to using say a 250 watt amp on the woofers and a separate amp on the tm, vs just using the 250 watt amp for the entire speaker? I cant think of any...

ahh ok...see I was thinking of picking up a crown xls 1000 and using the reciever power for the T/M and the crown for the woofers. that would give me roughly 285-300watts per channel which is what my A7's are rated at. I would be almost tripling the
power. Or do I I just use the crown for the enitre speaker and free up head room on the yamaha for the center and rear speakers? Tweeters and Mids dont use that much power so I figured the closer I can get to 300watts a channel the better no? I realize I can purchase a more powerful amp as well, but I can get a xls1000 for 288.00 shipped and have really been impressed with that amp for the little money. It runs quiet, cool, and lightweight.

Also what if I ran the crown off my secondary sub-out then used the crowns high pass filter to cut frequencies below 30hz? I could set the A7's woofers for 30-120hz, my subs for 60hz and below.
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post #42 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

On a A9 if you supplied the top half with th AVR's 70watts or whatever, then powered the bottom half with lets say a crown xls1000 @ 215watts a channel, your telling me there wont be any difference in terms of output from simply supplying 70watts to the speaker opposed to 285?
Not enough to make a significant difference. A 6:1 difference between the low frequency power and high frequency power might be worthwhile, not from the extra power per se, but for the added headroom. But you still wouldn't get the major benefit of bi-amping, which isn't about power, it's about reduced distortion. When each amp amplifies a limited band width and the passive crossover components are eliminated there is a major reduction in THD and IMD. If you don't do so those benefits aren't realized.

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post #43 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not enough to make a significant difference. A 6:1 difference between the low frequency power and high frequency power might be worthwhile, not from the extra power per se, but for the added headroom. But you still wouldn't get the major benefit of bi-amping, which isn't about power, it's about reduced distortion. When each amp amplifies a limited band width and the passive crossover components are eliminated there is a major reduction in THD and IMD. If you don't do so those benefits aren't realized.

ok so what of I ran the crown off my secondary sub out? more details in my post above! Btw I appreciate your advice!!! I have learned alot from reading your posts over the last couple months.
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post #44 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

ahh ok...see I was thinking of picking up a crown xls 1000 and using the reciever power for the T/M and the crown for the woofers. that would give me roughly 285-300watts per channel which is what my A7's are rated at. I would be almost tripling the
power. Or do I I just use the crown for the enitre speaker and free up head room on the yamaha for the center and rear speakers? Tweeters and Mids dont use that much power so I figured the closer I can get to 300watts a channel the better no? I realize I can purchase a more powerful amp as well, but I can get a xls1000 for 288.00 shipped and have really been impressed with that amp for the little money. It runs quiet, cool, and lightweight.

Also what if I ran the crown off my secondary sub-out then used the crowns high pass filter to cut frequencies below 30hz? I could set the A7's woofers for 30-120hz, my subs for 60hz and below.
My Yamaha receiver's manual says not to connect speakers when using the preouts for an amp. So it may not support what you are thinking of trying to do.
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post #45 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 08:51 AM
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going from 110 watts per channel to 90 is very little difference with a 89db sensitive speaker. it would be less than 1db difference at the same volume.

here is the breakdown of a 89db sensitivity speaker....doubling the power adds 3db.

1watt=89db
2watt=92db
4watt=95db
8watt=98db
16watt=101db
32watt=104db
64watt=107db
128watt=110db
256watt=113db
512watt=116db

Yes but its hard to say how the two different companies rate their gear, or how many other speakers were being run at the same time. With certain variables it could of made more than just a 1db difference.
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post #46 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post

My Yamaha receiver's manual says not to connect speakers when using the preouts for an amp. So it may not support what you are thinking of trying to do.

Same thing with my Onkyo. That's what I was wondering, how the heck is a guy going to bi-amp from the AVR and amp when you've got interconnects from the AVR to the amp? That channel is committed for one out put, not two.

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post #47 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 09:31 AM
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Ok, it is true that to truly bi amp a set of speaker you need an active crossover and remove the passive internal crossover from the speaker. But using two separate amps, will sound better than using one low watt amp. To push the rtia9's, specially when playing songs or movies with lots of bass you either need one amp with at least 300 watts or have two amps (one pushing the tweeters and mids) and one pushing the low end. I have this speakers and I know how they sound with low power and with big power. Makes a big difference. Also if this is a thread for Polk Audio rtia'9's it would be nice to hear ONLY the people that own this speakers or have had them at some point. All speakers are different, and some will sound better or worst with different set up. This is my opinion as a current rtia'9 owner.
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post #48 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post

My Yamaha receiver's manual says not to connect speakers when using the preouts for an amp. So it may not support what you are thinking of trying to do.

obviously...im talking about using the bi amp configuration, use the "surround rear" for the tweeter and mids, and the front pre out for the woofers.
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post #49 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 09:40 AM
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Yes but its hard to say how the two different companies rate their gear, or how many other speakers were being run at the same time. With certain variables it could of made more than just a 1db difference.

huh? that makes absolutely no sense.
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post #50 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

Same thing with my Onkyo. That's what I was wondering, how the heck is a guy going to bi-amp from the AVR and amp when you've got interconnects from the AVR to the amp? That channel is committed for one out put, not two.

read my reply to the poster you quoted....wink.gif
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post #51 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 10:06 AM
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ok so what of I ran the crown off my secondary sub out?
Then you could use it to drive an unpowered sub.
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All speakers are different, and some will sound better or worst with different set up.
All speakers and amps are subject to the same laws of acoustical engineering. If you know those laws you know how every speaker works. In my line of work I have to know those laws.
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That's what I was wondering, how the heck is a guy going to bi-amp from the AVR and amp when you've got interconnects from the AVR to the amp?
You can only bi-amp with an AVR if it has insert jacks between the pre-amps and power amps that allow insertion of an active crossover. I imagine these exist, but they would be quite rare. If what you have is a typical 7.1 AVR that claims the ability to employ unused surround amps for bi-amping the mains there is no active crossover, so there is no bi-amping. They call it 'passive bi-amping', and that's a total oxymoron, as bi-amping by definition is not passive.

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post #52 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 11:19 AM
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Yousetn run two amps from one pre amp or avr by using a y rca splitter. That's how I'm running mine, and for those Who are going to say that you will loose sound quality if that is true, I can't tell the difference. I think, part of the fun is to try and experiment with different set ups and configurations until you are happy with the sound. My rtia'9s are connected from my yamaha cd player with output control with a y rca spliter one set going to my modern dynaco st70 pushing my highs and mids and the other set of rca to a crown xls 1000 d class amp adjusted with the internal crossover at 100 hz pushing the bottom end and they sound great. I recomend to experiment and see what you like best.
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post #53 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Then you could use it to drive an unpowered sub.
All speakers and amps are subject to the same laws of acoustical engineering. If you know those laws you know how every speaker works. In my line of work I have to know those laws.
You can only bi-amp with an AVR if it has insert jacks between the pre-amps and power amps that allow insertion of an active crossover. I imagine these exist, but they would be quite rare. If what you have is a typical 7.1 AVR that claims the ability to employ unused surround amps for bi-amping the mains there is no active crossover, so there is no bi-amping. They call it 'passive bi-amping', and that's a total oxymoron, as bi-amping by definition is not passive.

im talking about using the crown to power the woofers on my a7's and using the secondary sub out for input signal and crossover.
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post #54 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If there is an electronic crossover that sends the lows to the woofer amp and the mids/highs to the AVR power amp and there are no passive crossover components in the speaker then it's true bi-amping and it does work. If not, you're wasting an amp and wire.

Bill, this would only work for a 2 way speaker. If you removed the crossover from the A9 and split the signal between the woofers and mid/tweet you would smoke the tweeter in short order, besides sounding horrible with no mid/tweet xover. If someone was feeling froggy they could install a third binding post, open the speaker up and wire the drivers directly to each post, and run a fully active tri-amped setup.
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post #55 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 12:22 PM
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Bill, this would only work for a 2 way speaker. If you removed the crossover from the A9 and split the signal between the woofers and mid/tweet you would smoke the tweeter in short order, besides sounding horrible with no mid/tweet xover..
You wouldn't remove the entire crossover in a three way. You'd remove the low pass section feeding the woofer, and the high pass section feeding the midrange. The low pass section on the midrange and high pass section feeding the tweeter would remain intact. To totally remove the crossover would require tri-amping.

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post #56 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You wouldn't remove the entire crossover in a three way. You'd remove the low pass section feeding the woofer, and the high pass section feeding the midrange. The low pass section on the midrange and high pass section feeding the tweeter would remain intact. To totally remove the crossover would require tri-amping.

Right. Just wanna make sure these polk owners reading this dont get confused wink.gif

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post #57 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

so your saying using the avr power to drive the tweeter/mid and a seperate power amp to drive the woofers does nothing?

It doesn't do much. What it might do is isolate the tweeters from any distortion that might be produced by the amps driving the woofers, when driven to that point.

Someone a few posts up mentioned tubes on the tweeters vs. SS on the woofers. I can't personally speak to how noticeable this may or may not be, Years ago, this used to be a common argument in support of passive biamping, but you don't really see it mentioned much anymore.

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On a A9 if you supplied the top half with th AVR's 70watts or whatever, then powered the bottom half with lets say a crown xls1000 @ 215watts a channel, your telling me there wont be any difference in terms of output from simply supplying 70watts to the speaker opposed to 285?
That's not how it works. The power used when passively biamping is not anywhere near additive. At best, you are theoretically driving the speaker with a few more watts than the single amp would otherwise drive it. Each section of the speaker's crossover is still parsing the power in the signal that each section is receiving. With a 70w amp connected to a tweeter's terminals, it might be getting 7w.

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post #58 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

That's what I was wondering, how the heck is a guy going to bi-amp from the AVR and amp when you've got interconnects from the AVR to the amp? That channel is committed for one out put, not two.
Disregarding any argument against passive biamping in the first place, you should be able to use the AVR's amps and the pre-outs for those same channels at the same time............. if that's what you want to do.

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post #59 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 12:50 PM
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Right. Just wanna make sure these polk owners reading this dont get confused wink.gif

Most non DIYers still think the inside of a speaker is a magical oasis of fairy dust and unicorns.

Yeah, unless you really, really know what you are doing, ripping the crossover out of an otherwise reasonably well-designed speaker is pretty silly. And maybe even stupid.

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post #60 of 60 Old 05-24-2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Someone a few posts up mentioned tubes on the tweeters vs. SS on the woofers. I can't personally speak to how noticeable this may or may not be, Years ago, this used to be a common argument in support of passive biamping, but you don't really see it mentioned much anymore.
Watch this, specifically at the 3:20 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

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